Suggestion: consistently rework daily dungeon quests to only require final boss kill to complete

[ShadowLane]

Since completing a daily quest for dungeons such as NS, EL, HH requires credit for earlier bosses, if anything goes south after the first boss is dead and the party gets depleted, the run often has to be abandoned since it is next to impossible to fill the group to continue with it. Changing dc completion requirements would make refilling parties on the run for those dungeons possible and reduce the amount of players quitting the team because the group rushed killing the first boss while some members were still stuck at loading, thus contributing to a smoother gameplay experience in those dungeons.

[Grimoir]

If anything, they should make them require all boss kills + a contribution based reward to get rid of all the leechers.

[ShadowLane]

Yes, that would make this toxic community shine in its fullest and make all levelling players quit through the kick-to-dungeon-completion ratio increase, great idea as always, Grimoir.

[Ryunosuke Takahashi]

13 hours ago, ShadowLane said:

Yes, that would make this toxic community shine in its fullest and make all levelling players quit through the kick-to-dungeon-completion ratio increase, great idea as always, Grimoir.

To be honest there isn't a issue with the current system however, it really falls on the players being impatient and not waiting for everyone to be at said bosses before killing much like I have noticed in Tower of Memory where basically if you happen to load slower currently you might actually be screwed out of the event / locked out as your party might of finished the run before you fully load in, in some cases.

Edited June 2, 2019 by Kitsune Takahashi

[CooleSau]

I got your point. But think about afks, leechers, pilots..

 

"Dungeon design. Good design: trash -> boss -> portal -> trash -> boss -> portal -> trash -> boss (naryu sanctum)
Bad design: all without a portal (yeti, hongsil workshop, starstone mines) and those with too little trash/travel between a portal and a boss (this was a problem way back when lvl 36  and below dungeons were part of daily challenge. Somebody just rushes through the whole dungeon and others get hit by mobs at start/before a portal)."

 

 

Edited June 3, 2019 by CooleSau

[Ryunosuke Takahashi]

2 hours ago, CooleSau said:

I got your point. But think about afks, leechers, pilots..

 

"Dungeon design. Good design: trash -> boss -> portal -> trash -> boss -> portal -> trash -> boss (naryu sanctum)
Bad design: all without a portal (yeti, hongsil workshop, starstone mines) and those with too little trash/travel between a portal and a boss (this was a problem way back when lvl 36  and below dungeons were part of daily challenge. Somebody just rushes through the whole dungeon and others get hit by mobs at start/before a portal)."

 

 

Still if you add the vote kick option back, it will be abused which is why it was removed in the first place. Players need to basically speak to one another, check to make sure people are actually there before entering dungeons, ask if people load slower. You are still able to kick before entering the dungeon. What I do while it might not be ideal is just this everyone gets one chance with me on F8, if you leech, afk or whatever, you get blocked. I notice you in my dungeon party while we are still recruiting you get kicked. Also, yea people rush through the dungeons and don't really deal with the trash mobs and yet if they actually killed the trash mobs it would help out make the run overall faster so the rest of the party behind them wouldn't be stuck in combat therefore slowing down the run. Logic right?

[Kozuki]

Agreed. It is extremely hard to recruit people into dungeons with progressive daily quests, cuz unless they intend to farm these dungeons, they will immediately left cuz they cannot completely daily quests without earlier boss clears.

 

Leechers are problematic, yeah. But leechers don't care if earlier bosses are killed or not. They can still just go in, and leech whatever gold bid players can, or just get the end-reward dynamic quests so that they can send materials to main characters. In short, progressive daily quests do nothing about stopping leechers, while discourage normal players from LFG into parties that need more manpower.

 

The only way to stop leechers from harassing you is online vote-kick, which NCWest refuses to implement.

 

Outside of F8 dungeons, I think Midnight Skypetal Plain also needs to change quest type from killing Stage 1-2-3 turtles into killing 3 turtles of any stage, so that people will feel more encouraged to join non 1-3 runs more. Even if they want to do 4-6 too, as long as they still have the quest, they would prefer waiting 1-6 run instead of joining other 4-6 runs.

[Kozuki]

9 minutes ago, Kitsune Takahashi said:

Still if you add the vote kick option back, it will be abused which is why it was removed in the first place. Players need to basically speak to one another, check to make sure people are actually there before entering dungeons, ask if people load slower. You are still able to kick before entering the dungeon. What I do while it might not be ideal is just this everyone gets one chance with me on F8, if you leech, afk or whatever, you get blocked. I notice you in my dungeon party while we are still recruiting you get kicked. Also, yea people rush through the dungeons and don't really deal with the trash mobs and yet if they actually killed the trash mobs it would help out make the run overall faster so the rest of the party behind them wouldn't be stuck in combat therefore slowing down the run. Logic right?

Vote kick online players are never be implemented in the first place. What is removed is the ability to set master loot, which leads to ninja looting back in early days of level 45.

 

Vote kick online can only be abused if you run with a group of five players who can unanimously vote kick against you. It is hard for a group of five strangers to do that, mainly cuz they don't know the story, don't know how to vote, or just be too lazy to bother. Unless you somehow make all of them hate you, like being an ass, or a leecher. If that happens, you deserve that.

Edited June 3, 2019 by Kozuki

[Grimoir]

1 hour ago, Kozuki said:

Vote kick online can only be abused if you run with a group of five players who can unanimously vote kick against you. It is hard for a group of five strangers to do that, mainly cuz they don't know the story, don't know how to vote, or just be too lazy to bother. Unless you somehow make all of them hate you, like being an ass, or a leecher. If that happens, you deserve that.

Completely not true.....i played games where people simply vote-kicked just because the leader did, or they votekicked because they felt it would be funny.

So regardless how its put a vote-kick would be very heavily abused especially with such a closed community.

[Ryunosuke Takahashi]

1 hour ago, Kozuki said:

Vote kick online players are never be implemented in the first place. What is removed is the ability to set master loot, which leads to ninja looting back in early days of level 45.

 

Vote kick online can only be abused if you run with a group of five players who can unanimously vote kick against you. It is hard for a group of five strangers to do that, mainly cuz they don't know the story, don't know how to vote, or just be too lazy to bother. Unless you somehow make all of them hate you, like being an ass, or a leecher. If that happens, you deserve that.

You give players that power and they will abuse it. Has been abused in the past which might be the reason why it is no longer a option on F8 for players that are still online. There is another ways to remove "leechers" and that is simple, make it so you have to actually contribute to killing the boss or you don't get credit. Like most it requires you to do like 1% or something. Again though that wouldn't exactly be fair to people that load very slow and going how impatient a lot of the community is, they will kill the boss not wait for you like they should and poof you must go again in hopes you get a party that will actually wait.

As for Master Loot rights, honestly there shouldn't even be a thing in regardless. Prime example, I was helping on a few raid runs using my main. I did most of the work, didn't get a single drop because the players I ran with were mostly in the same clan and treated it like their clan first while putting in very little effort. Fair? Nope. Kind of like how while Master Loot isn't a thing, a party leader can still set min. bid on items on F8 which should also be removed if you get down to it. So, everyone has a fair shot when it comes to bidding for said item.

In the end, regardless of what you might think or others, systems can always be abused in some way.

[MassiveEgo]

@Grimoir If you remember, we did discuss this around lat year's end and we came up with a bunch of ideas that would literally murder any and all forms of leeching. NC didn't respond as usual, cause playerbase well being is not on their priority list.

 

On OPs point about slow loading. Here's my take on it. You as a slow loader, are not in any way shape or form, entitled to the time of other people. If they wait, they wait. If they don't, tough luck, find another party. Also, not putting in the same amount of effort into a dungeon, means you shouldn't get access to same rewards. It's only natural. 
And before a point is being made that there's nothing people can do about it - yes there is. Buy better hardware. With a modest investment into a less of a potato PC, you'll load in, in under 30 seconds. Do something about it yourself. Expecting others do to something about it, is called entitlement.

[Bobthemonk]

If you get trapped in a dungeon because you blocked people out of the daily quest then it's your own fault at the end of the day. It takes longer for them to load in, realise and leave then new people to join than it takes to simply wait on them in the first place... So if your to impatient to wait for them, why are you suddenly patient enough to hit LFP and wait for people to join, load in and catch up to help you?

[Astarae]

Would especially like CS to clear daily by kill of 2nd boss.

 

It's getting annoying how many drop out after they finish shopping after 1st boss kill.

 

 

[Laura099]

On 6/3/2019 at 10:40 AM, MassiveEgo said:

@Grimoir If you remember, we did discuss this around lat year's end and we came up with a bunch of ideas that would literally murder any and all forms of leeching. NC didn't respond as usual, cause playerbase well being is not on their priority list.

 

On OPs point about slow loading. Here's my take on it. You as a slow loader, are not in any way shape or form, entitled to the time of other people. If they wait, they wait. If they don't, tough luck, find another party. Also, not putting in the same amount of effort into a dungeon, means you shouldn't get access to same rewards. It's only natural. 
And before a point is being made that there's nothing people can do about it - yes there is. Buy better hardware. With a modest investment into a less of a potato PC, you'll load in, in under 30 seconds. Do something about it yourself. Expecting others do to something about it, is called entitlement.

I don't mean to stick up for anyone here, but honestly, what you said is a bit...ridiculous. This game is meant for people 18+ right? Recently however it was promoted as a teen game or something. But let's forget that for a moment.
If you're age recommendation is 18+, there's a good chance you will get people who go to school. School, is by no means cheap. You can't sit there and work a well-paying full time job very easily depending on what you're taking. And the internet service may not be optimal wherever you live. If you take into account upgrading internet,  your hard drive, graphics card, cpu, and ram, it comes out well beyond a thousand dollars, especially internet which is not a one time payment. That would be rough on people trying to progress in life, support their family, or that just wanna play this ❤ ❤ ❤ ❤ game for what it should be, a G.A.M.E.
Now back to the teen topic. "Oh well just buy a new graphics card monka" what 15 year old is gonna have that kind of money to just blow? I don't know about you, but when I was in high school, my main concern was how i was gonna feed myself tonight, not whether I should upgrade to a 1080 or upgrade to a 2 terrabite solid state drive

Edit: Forgot to mention, you can't "upgrade" your internet providers, simply what they're giving you. If you don't have a good set of providers, then what. You gonna tell em to move to Dallas before you pick up the game?

Edited June 5, 2019 by Laura099
Internet providers

[Snowyamur]

On 6/2/2019 at 2:33 AM, Grimoir said:

If anything, they should make them require all boss kills + a contribution based reward to get rid of all the leechers.

I agree with requiring all boss kills to earn a reward, but I disagree with creating a contribution-based system of rewards @Grimoir. Making this kind of system will definitely combat leechers because they tend to not do anything, but what about those players who need some rewards and they contribute to the boss effort? What would count as "contribution" towards dungeon rewards?

 

If damage towards a boss is the factor used in calculating contribution, how will low-geared players compete with high-geared players for rewards? Sometimes, when readying up for a dungeon, a high-geared player could join, and let's say they inflict at least 1m DPS. On a contribution-based reward system, because these kind of players inflict a lot, usually the most, damage, they're going to get the best rewards, while low-geared players would be left with the scraps.

 

It's a system that would prevent leeching altogether, but hurt how players receive rewards in the long run.

[ElectricPotato]

On 6/2/2019 at 5:33 AM, Grimoir said:

If anything, they should make them require all boss kills + a contribution based reward to get rid of all the leechers.

Going this way, join in progress should probably be removed.

[Astarae]

On 6/3/2019 at 7:40 AM, MassiveEgo said:

@Grimoir If you remember, we did discuss this around lat year's end and we came up with a bunch of ideas that would literally murder any and all forms of leeching. NC didn't respond as usual, cause playerbase well being is not on their priority list.

On OPs point about slow loading. Here's my take on it. You as a slow loader, are not in any way shape or form, entitled to the time of other people. 

No, but slow loading is based in the server.  You pay for 50ms on server, you get 80ping, you don't pay enough, you get the 90ms on server.  Right after the server merge, my ping time went down below 100 for the first time I've ever played this game.  No change in hardware.  They just too the server-delays off of everyone because they didn't know how much delay all the new users would add. 

 

After the last update where they added the prize bags you could buy -- things went back to [sic]"normal".  Doors that I used to be able to go through instantly (ones where you could see the other side), now went to a loading screen and it's stayed that way.

 

Nothing to do with my PC -- all to do with how much delay they add on the server.  

 

Entitlement?  Guess I didn't pay an extra 1k/month for priority access.

 

So the OP isn't entitled to people waiting -- that's fine -- just give them double loot for

any fight they missed due to group not waiting.  Group doesn't have to wait, and OP 

doesn't have to miss out.  I'm sure you'd agree those who get faster access already have

their entitlement, right?  If they get kicked mid run, -- they automatically get full

treasure available at end and full credit.  Problem solved.

 

[MassiveEgo]

@Astarae Uhm, what? Let me get this straight. You expect the game to reward people for doing nothing, is that it? You expect them to be rewarded for being the weakest link in the chain and slowing everybody else down? Pardon me, but nope. If this is how we'll play the arguments, fine. I'll bite. Just make the client rat out the average loading time to the server, so the server can pair all the slow loading people into one lobby. There. Nobody needs to wait for others when everybody has relatively sameish loading times. I just discovered a new utopia;

 

@Laura099 Albeit I understand your sentiment and I don't disagree with it, you must understand that MMO games never took kindly to slow CPUs. Literally NEVER. Go back in time. Every mmo that had decent gameplay, ended up being a slug fest on slow CPUs. You can kind of wing it with the graphics card by lowering the details and resolution, but you cannot get around the simple technical fact that in order to render a scene, the cpu needs data about all the actors in it, twenty times per second usually. Data that comes over the net almost in real time. Having a CPU that can do the necessary calculations for the simulation to run smoothly under these conditions and without introducing either fps drops or rubber banding, is a must. Trying to play on weak hardware when it comes to action MMOs never worked. Aion, Tera, GW, FF, BnS - they all go to hell in the exact same manner. There's no example for an action mmo that didn't have potato graphics and/or potato animations or a hacked combat system which wasn't truly action one (looking at you, the old republic/BDO, you sad excuses of an "action combat" games), which didn't have these issues. Aka the "norm" has been set long ago. You either get the hardware and enjoy the game, or you end up stuck in the loading limbo and the fps drops. Not much of a choice when it comes down to it. And expecting other people who got fed up with the loading screens and bought the necessary hardware, to sit around and basically waste the benefits of that investment, is just not the right thing to do. It's like buying a car for the purpose of getting to work faster, then ending up getting there in the same time it'd take you to get there with a bicycle, cause there's that one coworker with a bicycle that's on the same lane as you but you can't overtake him.. cause reasons. The sensible thing would be to overtake him.

 

Mind you I wouldn't even make a point about this, if I didn't already sit around for at least 100 hours (if not more) just in BnS, waiting for people to load in. Every single run there's that someone who takes two minutes to pop on the dungeon platform and then another three-five minutes to load in, then one more to run to the boss. I'm dying inside, literally.

[Bakuzan]

Anyone that thinks "vote kick gets abused" never played WoW ~ i played it for years, and its one of the things i'd LOVE having here, solves many problems

also, if you load SOOOOOO slow that you miss first boss on EL (the twins dont even count for the quest), NS (have to clear plenty of trash mobs first) and HH (plenty of trash plus a pretty long road) you should consider playing a different game

A bit over 1 year ago, my PC couldnt handle the game and i would either, took super long to load or crash, i had to uninstall and come back a year later after i got a decent PC, do the same instead of forcing everyone to wait for 5mins for you to load (not even taking into account the time it then takes you to reach the boss)