Why you think summoners are OP (Or the mistakes you are making)

[Kensho1996]

Though I am a little ticked off as this game does feel unbalanced I agree with 

9 minutes ago, Enoll said:

You have missed quite few more points as well... regarding E, regarding chestnut etc, I am just guessing that you are not one of the top players as well. But either way, well done for doing this, hopefully will shut majority of the silver - early gold whiners

to some degree though I am NOT silver and can't (and believe NEVER WILL) get out of bronze ranking atm .. been playing this game since CBT and this present set up with 45th level and 5 hongmoon levels hit my KFM hard .. I was having an ok time in PvP arena prior to this patch though my wins were hit and miss NOW I think I am 17 and 1 and I think the 1 win was only because the sin just decided to let me win..

 

Now I know that the switch to arena changes my ping and lag incredibly with huge spikes in both lag and near DCs BUT really only affecting the arena as OW and dungeons do not seem to have this issue..

24 minutes ago, Archaegeo said:

Umm,

First the post was trying to help.

 

Second, please try playing a summoner, we don't even get a tab escape, tab sends out pet at target in LOS.  Learn about the class before succumbing to despair.

started a summoner last night and got to Jadestone .. honestly the class feels way EASIER than KFM in PvE largely because of their heal which IS a BIG heal in comparison to any other class and this is without SPs ... also I have a summoner I was playing at launch who is 20th that I stopped playing due to boredom with the class BUT this time it feels even easier than the first time .. THEY buffed something just not sure what

 

I appreciate Archargro's attempt to assist the rest of us players though and yes i mean it ;)

[Archaegeo]

Ken,

 

No insult intended to you, but KFMs are ROCK solid now, IF they can play the class well. 4 of the top 20 are KFM. 10 of the top 50.  That's 20%, a good solid showing.  But as always KFM's must be spot on to be good, its called the hardest class for a reason (though I would say BM is harder to win with right now, there are 0 BM's in top 50).

 

Summoners heal is actually nerfed right now in PVE.  It only returns damage as heals for one target of all the ones damaging, which is not how it is supposed to be.

[Mesmerize]

23 hours ago, Masqava said:

The problem is that we have to take care of ALL Those things + Have a cat chasing us 24/7 that just puts us into grapple while we get sunflower nuked.

They have so many protective shields (dandalion and aura) and then still have a cat bodyguard if they *cricket* up.

I can't even knock the cat unconcious because they cheese call it back before it lands so it's *cricket*ing impossible to disable it.

You people saying cat is 2v1 don't realize that it is actually not as easy as people think. You have to actively control 2 parts while getting chased and stunned, knockdown, grapple or air locked. Cat actively chasing you is actually bad for us, they trigger people's skills on blocks, spin, and stuff and recalling them has extra animaiton in which we can't attack/defend ourselves, could be a fatal second if we get stunned during that. Cat's knockdown isn't a circle area, it's a cone and its range is really small, easy to avoid.

[NueHoujuu]

If summoner's counter dandelion allows countering from the first frame it's activated, it's still capable of instant / reactionless counters.

 

Actually, I designed a boss based on that - having a 1.5s counter that starts instantly. He told me that most fighting games (2D) have startup frames before the actual counter, helping make a more reaction based gameplay. He told me in terms of frames my counter was bull.

 

However because this counter is my boss's only ability, reading when the player will use it is very very easy, it needs to be instant and even while instant it's weak.

 

However I find with BnS since you have so many abilities and they can all mostly be used instantly, many situations occur where you just don't know he's about to pop dandelion and hit it in the middle of an attack.

 

But I also think BnS's variety of skills+escapes+etc makes up for that ;p

 

As sin I abuse instant decoy on people who attack too fast or often.

[Zooks]

2 hours ago, Archaegeo said:

Umm,

First the post was trying to help.

 

Second, please try playing a summoner, we don't even get a tab escape, tab sends out pet at target in LOS.  Learn about the class before succumbing to despair.

 

Yeah, it moved to 2 when CC'd because tab is cat charge you moron. LMAO... here you are trying to tell people all about Summoner and you don't even know that you have a tab escape? 

[Starrksensei]

There is a bm in top10, he was rank4 few days ago, I don't know why you *cricket* about it so bad:P
Ofc as starting BM I have no fun playing it, cuz i takes a lot of effort to play competitively on this patch, that's why I rolled KFM and I'm in love with it, learning all the time

[Nukia]

Wow, you really are clueless archaegeo right?

Saying that sum have no tab escape just because it was moved to 2

Saying that the only heal sum have is doom and bloom, really? So wtf is petal storm and true friend then?

[Archaegeo]

If it is on key 2, its not on Tab, shrug, we still have a lot fewer escapes than other classes.

 

Petal storm only heals if you are hit while standing in it, and then its only 2% up to 10% and that changes its reusability to 24 sec vice 18, which is murder when facing fm or other summoner.

 

And with true friend many take the 5 seconds/5 hits of iframe vice 20% heal, shrug.

 

Oh, and your rebuttals are awesome in their ability to be ugly and nasty.  Have you considered a position with Trumps campaign?

[Zooks]

4 minutes ago, Archaegeo said:

If it is on key 2, its not on Tab, shrug, we still have a lot fewer escapes than other classes.

 

Petal storm only heals if you are hit while standing in it, and then its only 2% up to 10% and that changes its reusability to 24 sec vice 18, which is murder when facing fm or other summoner.

 

And with true friend many take the 5 seconds/5 hits of iframe vice 20% heal, shrug.

 

Oh, and your rebuttals are awesome in their ability to be ugly and nasty.  Have you considered a position with Trumps campaign?

 

It's a tab escape on a different shortcut. If you want, rebind it to tab lol. You don't have fewer escapes. And on top of the escapes, you have a lot more going on. You have F roll like everyone else. You have I-frames and a 3 second snare on a 12 sec CD on SS. You have a 12 sec CD KD escape on 1. You have a CC recovery, 3 second stealth, and 10m move back on 2. You have a 6 second stealth counter on an 8 sec CD. You have a 20% heal on a 24 sec CD, or 5 sec/5 attack invulnerability on a 45 sec CD. You also have E on a 30 sec CD which may as well be an escape. AND if you don't CC the cat while you're trying to put damage/CC on the summoner the cat will freely CC you effectively stopping the CC chain. I've seen people get CC'd by the cat during air combos. 

 

I appreciate the effort to help people understand Summoners, but you're being a bit dishonest and downplaying the mechanics available to Summoner. 

[Inui]

7 hours ago, Archaegeo said:

Umm,

First the post was trying to help.

 

Second, please try playing a summoner, we don't even get a tab escape, tab sends out pet at target in LOS.  Learn about the class before succumbing to despair.

what? tab makes u invis thx

[AyeAye]

I didn't read past the first point on the first post.

 

You have no idea what your talking about.

 

The one and only reason we view summoners are OP, is because you can abuse the targeting system to hide behind a cat, that can't be hurt because he is in a defensive position, all the while fully healing yourself, and or the cat, at will.

 

This has literally nothing to do with ANYTHING else, the only other issues are(were) that most classes are not fleshed out well enough, as well as the fact that we are in a state of balance that requires us to have lvl 50 skills, Obviously, summoners operate on a chimpanzee level, and don't need anything from lvl 50 patch to be menacing.

 

Basically, YOU HAVE ALL YOUR TOOLS. And NO ONE ELSE IN THE GAME DOES.

 

Enjoy your crutch scrub, soon enough you'll be re-rolling to the next FoTM, then you will most likely quit the game because you don't have the skill to play anything requiring thought process and reaction.

 

 

[AyeeLmao]

sum=my cancer 

cat=damage 

flower=spam 

+random azz heal 

[Irisdina]

OP? Not gonna said this. Annojing? YEEEEEEESSSSSSS!!!!! They have this damm cat, which can pin you to ground and interupt EVERYTHING you do, heal like hell, and if you face in TAG 2 summoners in opposite team its GG already (once i met full team of summoner). Lets add summoners ussualy start TAG with "i can solo this" and ussually kill at least 2 players (once i was in team with guy which kill 3 guys solo in less than 1 min). Whats best is they cry, and call other classes OP (even BM) when they lose to them.

[Shukran]

- cat can grapple for an eternity meanwhile summ nukes you

- summ has ground ccs and stealth

- cat is a AI unit that chase no matter what and can hit in air (maybe even in iframes..not sure)

- summ can heal

 

the simple reason that summoners are camping low rank (few high ranks afaik - top 4EU has 1 summ right now-) is because the class is so user friendly and "simple" that player hasnt improved to play with "more trained" opponents that knows how to counter him.

 

still it is a simplicistic excuse to allow the class to be as it is.

 

but it will still be this way. so i try to improve.

 

what'0s sadder is watching summoners throwing epenis everywhere.

[Archaegeo]

I am heartened that KFMs are starting to get their fare share of hate.

 

Currently they hold more spots in the top 50 1v1 charts than summoners and are quickly becoming the FOTM, probably due to macro'ing 3rf.

[SpaceGoat]

summoners have 2 native escapes (trinket and reflex roll) and 1 counter EVERY SINGLE OTHER CLASS HAS MORE THEN 2!

The cat is part of the summoners kit you getting knocked out of that air combo is because i already used my reflex roll and my trinket.

Cat recall E is a iframe tha if we dont use well at high lvl pvp (ie block a instant cast jump with a .5 second iframe at the very beginning of a match) we cant avoid the stun into the stunlock combo and death.

Summoner has 2 semi escapes (1 for grapple and 1 for kd both of which can be countered.  if your do dmg to us when were trying to use these (punching us when grappled) and hitting us when knocked down it cancels them.

The summoner has 2 forms  of cc not from the cat a root and a daze every class in the game has a ss to counter the root and some even have special skills that give you buffs when you break the root (bd and dess gain speed and focus)  bd and dess even have immunity to daze and cc counter (dess) when spinning.

At high lvl people know how to kill summoners at low lvl the lvl ware everyone and their mother and mid lvl (goldish) people have no clue how to fight them and scream op.

[Gimcha]

On 2/15/2016 at 3:18 PM, Archaegeo said:

1)  You hit the dandelion.   No other class has such a blatant counter/iframe alert save maybe the sin when they do their little dance move.  Smart players I've encountered pause for 2 sec and go "Oh look, a dandelion, isn't that nice" and then when it goes away, pound me into the ground.  Don't hit the dandelion.  It puts us in stealth, with reduced damage and resist damage and extra skills and extra skill effects and lets us get distance and regain focus for 6 seconds, that's an eternity.

 

2) You unload on us when we have a little blue glow around us.  That's the X key.  If our pet is alive and we use it, we get 5 seconds or 5 hits of iframes.  HUGE, but again, just pause, or use LMBs to drain on it.

 

3) You hit the pet when it is crouched.  The pet takes 90% less damage AND heals when crouched.  Up to 8 seconds.  You are unloading the world healing the pet.  Voila, it gets up and goes back to work.

 

4) And some of you, the real baddies, hit the dandelion and then let us resummon our cat.  Unbelievable.  You can see through stealth, you just have to learn to look for it.  Stay close so they cant plop down and resummon.  It takes 5 seconds to resummon the cat and starting the resummon unstealths us.  Yet people still do it.

 

5) Sunflower.  Yes, this is a big hit, but its a focus eater, and it has limited range and a narrow beam.  (Hell, in pve It doesn't even work if there is a difference in Z positions of the target and the caster).  Smart summoners will save it for when you are dazed, stunned, rooted, or just too badly positioned to move out of it.  IN 3v3 its devastating as an assist attack.  Low ability summoners will unload with it, popping off 3-5 in a row.  Iframe those and go on your merry way.  Smart summoners use them tactically and don't run out of focus, because without focus we cant even dandelion.

 

6)  If you manage to knock out the cat, good on you.  Now hope we aren't smart enough to stand on top of it for you to wake it back up.

 

Just food for thought.  Because every post I see about summoners being OP never says why the poster has difficulty with them, it just screams OP, NERF!

 

Edit:

As a side note Destroyers are our biggest challenge due to our inability to keep distance if they don't hit the dandelion. After that a good FM is a nightmare because we get frozen and cant turn to aim.  Finally a well played KFM (luckily not many) and stun and roflstomp us into the ground, but I encounter very few of them.

 

Edit 2:

This post is really meant to be helpful and show you some of the ways you can be better against a little understood class (if you don't play it).

 

Edit 3:

Another issue is that 9 out of 10 people who scream about summoner being broken have never either bothered to play one to learn the class and its mechanics and weaknesses, or have never bothered to spar with one in a controlled setting (i.e. "Ok, now do that dandelion combo thing" etc).  Again, they just want to rush in and win.  Good players love encountering a FOTM summoner because its an easy win for them because the FOTM guys don't know the class well enough to be really dangerous if the stupid stuff doesn't work.

Every player in gold knows the stuff you told. You just play scummoner and try to tell that you skilled ? hehe no eat this :

Here is top 50 EU servers classes:

1) Scumoner x14

2) KFM x13

3) FM x6

4) Destro x6

5) BD x5

6) BM x4

7)Sucksosin x2

[Archaegeo]

In NA as of last night it was

 

1) KFM x13

2) Sum X9

3) BD x9

4) Dest x7

5) Sin x6

6) FM x5

7) BM x1

[JennaBeanBean]

Yee, it's understandable if folks don't know these things.

No-one wants to have to literally research a class just to beat them, but it can help even a little. 

 

I'm a summoner myself, but am by no means pro and just play for fun, so I've definitely had my fair share of beatings and have learned a-lot haha

 

don't give up folks! try different things, if you have any stuns, dazes, just experiment and try being more on the defensive. 

I've also noticed that when people try to kill the cat before me, I tend to have a better chance since the cat is really tanky and I can keep my distance. 

this can depend though, some do feel they have a better chance after the cat is gone, but if the summoner has chosen a tanky skill-build for the cat then it's going to be a hard time. :(

 

just some lil tips! I'm not the best and I could be wrong on a-lot of things, but if anything at all can help then that's cool beanz 

I know it will still be frustrating and draining, but keep going and have fun! 

 

[AyeAye]

Again, the summoner has more control over who I am targeting then I do (Him or the Cat)

 

When the summoner can choose my target for me, GG.

[mihwK]

On 16.2.2016 at 7:11 AM, VersusFate said:

What do you mean? What mechanic is this? If I face a summoner I can potentially revive his pet for him?

How did you go from reading that, to the conclusion of "reviving pet". Your mind works in mysterious ways!

[Somisan]

my anwser is Kill al LYN ! 2 of them are cancer giving broken ! if oyu see a lyn kick and spit on it thats the answer !

[voodooblade]

On 2/16/2016 at 7:29 AM, Starrksensei said:

There is a bm in top10, he was rank4 few days ago, I don't know why you *cricket* about it so bad:P
Ofc as starting BM I have no fun playing it, cuz i takes a lot of effort to play competitively on this patch, that's why I rolled KFM and I'm in love with it, learning all the time

 

And? There are people who run marathons, but most can't. using the top, and I mean the .1% percentile is cute and lol worthy. as a BM we are under powered, not broken just have the biggest gap to overcome. Furthermore even if one overcomes it, our damage is a bit lower, so mistakes are for more costly for us even on lower tiers. And yes, there are BM at the top, but they are still the least represented by far. and I mean by far. Add in their total overall lack in gold+ compared to all other classes and it's painfully obvious that as of now, playing a BM is rough. Best case scenario, BM's are the weakest, most difficult class. Worst case, they are broken as a whole as of now. That or every shitty player, only runs BM. Which is the least likely possibility. 

 

Personally, as a BM I think we have to as a whole accept that we aren't going to flood diamond or Plat any time soon. Learn our classes, accept the gap and once they are a bit more viable try to rise. Keep in mind, that even in Korea they are not useless, but not near the top either. Now to those assaulting any BM complaining, I advise actually making one. I did, just because I wanted to see what the QQ was about. As I did with summoner. And while my other toons are gold+, it's  a struggle each match for my BM. Unless I get lucky and am pinned against a shitty player. Now I use struggle comparatively, as Destroyer I destroy average and shit players on all classes, same with Fm,Sin, BD, and I deleted my summoner. As a BM I win, but no where near the blow out.

 

BM are good against two classes, other BM's and FM. Those are the classes we have a decent win rate against. While I am sure every other class doesn't quiver in fear when they see a BM< or think "Great a powerful BM FML. Why can't I fight a BD, or summoner or kfm..."

[VersusFate]

11 hours ago, mihwK said:

How did you go from reading that, to the conclusion of "reviving pet". Your mind works in mysterious ways!

Kill yourself before I do it for you... 

[Larkstongue]

So I've increased my win rate versus summoners a good deal I believe. And that's all well and good. Playing KFM so, we do pretty 'ight - though I'm no champ.

 

But look, here's the thing - *cricket* summoners.

 

Destroyers, Assassins, LBD - all challenging opponents in the right hands with iframes aplenty, no doubt.

 

But summoner is just an annoyance. Like getting a flat tire, or receiving a package you paid to have expedited late. It's just a friggin' annoying situation. Not something that can't be dealt with necessarily - just something you wish had never happened.