Why isn't there a Tanking/Healer design

[SauronTheGreat]

I am glad it doesn't have such thing.

I was getting tired of this bs, before this game finally launched. Having to do a specific boring job or begging to find a single person from a handful of people who are ok with doing the most boring job, to finally clear some dungeon/do a quest/do pvp w/e which won't take as much as it takes to find that specific class.

It was getting ridiculous, almost every mmorpg, moba w/e were being created with this bs lately.

 

This game still has it to an extend, but not in a retarded level. Some people may want tank in their party, some may want a little heal, some may want stealth/utility etc, and they can still move on without having any of these. Also these are not so hard to find because none of those classes are slaves of those specific jobs, making them appealing to play for anyone. So there isn't a risk of lacking a specific class.

 

I remember lineage 2, it was a disaster, create a party, immediately fill it with 4 dps, cry for tank and heal for 30 min, finally find a tank, wait another 30 min to find a healer before tank gets bored and leaves, find the healer just a minute after tank leaves, cry in shout chat for tank for about 20 mins, healer starts to get bored and offers you go without tank, you say it would end up wipe, healer threatens you of him leaving party if not enter in 2 min, you enter without tank, 30 min in dungeon, completely wipe at last boss, everyone flames at each other, leave and create another party ... WoW! Not just tank and heal, there was also a buffer class which was easy to find since most people had alts of it and all those classes tank,heal,buffer were just useless pixels when it comes to solo-play, also after a certain level any class including dps classes were completely useless in solo-play without having a buffer on their back all the time buffing every 5 mins.

 

 League of legends same crap, everyone trying to get top,adc,jungle,mid champions and nearly no one wants to play support, which make you end up in parties without support and leaving you at a huge disadvantage against teams who play according to meta.

 

 

[MushinKFM]

Well the best thing that could happen is for an MMO to create very versatile classes which in a worst case could all fit the required needs to fullfil the task.

I despise any trinity heavy game, it's just to strict to it's pattern.

 

Tbh the most boring class they could make would be a healer, even the summoner is so boring that many would reroll if they got into the action with another class just for once.

In all dungeons I went in you didn't need a healer once. All the dmg intake just comes out of stupidity.

A class with 17% damage reduction will also die in one normal boss attack (masts4) and no healer can help those who are undergeared.

 

Only thing I could not tank with my FM till now is blackwyrm and yeah that 24m I never went in.

[Criston]

On 2/17/2017 at 10:10 AM, Zuzu said:

Guessing this post is about not having a trinity system while other MMOs have it.

Honestly, I prefer BnS's non trinity system since it doesnt exclude certain classes; something I've seen in other MMOs that has the trinity system. At least BnS's system teaches you how to dodge, counter, block, etc at the right times rather than mindlessly face tanking everything and just getting healed.

Oh, but it has excluded a class, it has excluded a Destroyer.  A class which is clearly not wanted in any raid or Dungeon which means that they either have to address the issues with this class alone, or that the system needs a rework in general.

[Zuzu]

27 minutes ago, Criston said:

Oh, but it has excluded a class, it has excluded a Destroyer.  A class which is clearly not wanted in any raid or Dungeon which means that they either have to address the issues with this class alone, or that the system needs a rework in general.

I'm guessing you haven't watched any type of BnS stream or actually done any type of dungeon in the endgame zone.

 

I have yet to see ANY Destroyer get kicked from a party that I've joined/seen just because he/she is a Destroyer. Please do not spout out ridiculous comments such as this because then people will go around believing such things.

You're not even level 50 yet so I don't even know why you even made that comment unless you're going off of rumors which clearly seems the case.

[Criston]

8 minutes ago, Zuzu said:

I'm guessing you haven't watched any type of BnS stream or actually done any type of dungeon in the endgame zone.

 

I have yet to see ANY Destroyer get kicked from a party that I've joined/seen just because he/she is a Destroyer. Please do not spout out ridiculous comments such as this because then people will go around believing such things.

I am not spouting, I paid close mind to all issues, have you read the "Party/raid team build"?  It's here in the forum, has many that agree with it and Destroyer is constantly dogged and ripped apart.  They have "low dps and no usefulness in any party.  I am quoting in general what brought me to start asking questions.  I didn't post on here for a while as my questions were normally answered here.  But with one of my favorite classes being slammed as Useless, I wanted to ask questions.  I didn't say that the game should adopt this ides, I asked for feedback. I didn't say it was a mistake to not have this system, I asked for the player community to give me their thoughts, feelings and ideas on the subject.  Now, as for the destroyer, even in this post you will see near the top that it has been called a forgotten class.  So I do not make the statement lightly when I say that Destroyers are the single most unliked class in the game for party/teams.

[Zuzu]

2 hours ago, Criston said:

I am not spouting, I paid close mind to all issues, have you read the "Party/raid team build"?  It's here in the forum, has many that agree with it and Destroyer is constantly dogged and ripped apart.  They have "low dps and no usefulness in any party.  I am quoting in general what brought me to start asking questions.  I didn't post on here for a while as my questions were normally answered here.  But with one of my favorite classes being slammed as Useless, I wanted to ask questions.  I didn't say that the game should adopt this ides, I asked for feedback. I didn't say it was a mistake to not have this system, I asked for the player community to give me their thoughts, feelings and ideas on the subject.  Now, as for the destroyer, even in this post you will see near the top that it has been called a forgotten class.  So I do not make the statement lightly when I say that Destroyers are the single most unliked class in the game for party/teams.

And you're going off of the "ideal" party/raid team build. It is not something EVERY raid/party has/will have, its just to give an idea of what would be best but it's not 100% needed. You're going off of what others are saying rather than experiencing it for yourself; arguably other people's comments can/have been useful but for something as saying "Destroyer is the only excluded class" is a bit asinine. You can clearly see once you get to endgame dungeons people will run with a Destroyer and the Destroyer doing somewhat decent DPS if they are good.

 

It's fine for you to ask questions and read around for your answers but for some things you'll have to experience for yourself rather than go off of other's experiences/opinions because it'll be different for everyone. As for the comment of saying Destroyer is excluded/not liked and your justification is them not being in the ideal party/raid team build and a few comments made by forum people is just not right. For me personally I've had no problems with Destroyers and people that are in the same party has had no problem with them and they are actually decent. Now there are times where yes, I do find bad Destroyers and can be a nuisance but that happens with every class.

 

All I'm saying is, take whatever is said on the forums with a grain of salt. Experience it for yourself before blindly believing the things found on here. If you can't experience for yourself then try to do as much research as you can on whatever question you have.

[iritsuchan]

Too many people are already too lazy to do mechanics, adding a healer will make it worse. 

[MonkeyDRuffy]

Im very interested about the upcoming gunner, especially which "role" he will present in the game.

[RyuueLaview]

20 hours ago, MonkeyDRuffy said:

Im very interested about the upcoming gunner, especially which "role" he will present in the game.

Me too! I feel like it will just be dps tho. If there is support what do you imagine? I think it would be really unique if the dev can pull that off. And not just add a neat trick that can be done better by other classes. 

 

 

[MushinKFM]

@RyuueLaview y hopefully they don't throw in a lame ass smokebomb like the assassin has.

 

Maybe aircombo which works for bosses kinda like poharan.

 

And supportive dps support having all kinds of DoT bullets:

Bleed bullet, burn bullet, poison bullet, ivy poison (idk summ dot) and more..

 

I feel a gunner could have a grenade but something about it sounds boring to me.

 

Maybe be able to shoot a net (root) and another skill that gives partymembers double the defense for a few seconds. We already have many party iframes to work with even tho it'dd help gunners be more useful in party.

[arkvard]

looking at the trailer, gunner would be giving some buff to party. Dunno what kind of buff

 

giving some bonus elemental damage would be legit

[RyuueLaview]

15 hours ago, MushinKFM said:

@RyuueLaview y hopefully they don't throw in a lame ass smokebomb like the assassin has.

 

Maybe aircombo which works for bosses kinda like poharan.

 

And supportive dps support having all kinds of DoT bullets:

Bleed bullet, burn bullet, poison bullet, ivy poison (idk summ dot) and more..

 

I feel a gunner could have a grenade but something about it sounds boring to me.

 

Maybe be able to shoot a net (root) and another skill that gives partymembers double the defense for a few seconds. We already have many party iframes to work with even tho it'dd help gunners be more useful in party.

Yeh that sounds like a lot of fun. I was more interested in knowing what ppl imagine about pure support like healing or protection. As opposed to dps support. 

 

Heal beam? Lol. Maybe a ressurect bomb kind of like summoners cat but can be used by gunner as he is dying? (I think of like that one LoL video Ive seen where a gun man kamikazes himself with his bombs to defeat a crazy boss to save his friends. 

 

I also wonder what the weapon will be. A gatling gun like poh? Riffles(i dobt think they r riflles. X.x maybe shotguns?)  like the new npc? Pistols like the gunner trailer? Or long rifles like the Gunner of the 8 guardians. 

[MushinKFM]

@RyuueLaview nah that would be boring. If you think about healing I'dd like to see a crazy kind, like a double edged sword.

 

The gunner can practically send or give his defensive stats to a party member and lose it on the go or the other way around. So that kind of healing defense will make the gunner vulnerable on the other hand. Or like a blood transfer where the gunner looses 20% and gives someone else 20% (in this case the gunner can even be squishy and have someone else to cover his back).

[RyuueLaview]

8 hours ago, MushinKFM said:

@RyuueLaview nah that would be boring. If you think about healing I'dd like to see a crazy kind, like a double edged sword.

 

The gunner can practically send or give his defensive stats to a party member and lose it on the go or the other way around. So that kind of healing defense will make the gunner vulnerable on the other hand. Or like a blood transfer where the gunner looses 20% and gives someone else 20% (in this case the gunner can even be squishy and have someone else to cover his back).

Oooh I see. That's neat too. I like that idea. How would you imagine the animations for your suggestions?

[MushinKFM]

So what we got:

 

Changing dot bullets, poharan style aircombo, shoot net at boss or add, the need of some party protection.

 

DoT Bullets: gunner has some kind of purse on it's side think of it like batmans belt, gunner animation would be to insert a bullet or maybe lets go insane and insert a scorpion into the gun and shoot (Postal2 style).

For a burning bullet hm this should be the gunners Autoattack since the bullets are heated idk lol.

Bleed bullet: well bullets bleed when you shoot at someone? The animatiob should be just a longer duration precise shot with an indicator on AI/Player/Boss Head or thorax maybe thorax is better.

 

Well I didn't implement ivy poison or anythung for kfm or sf, des and else do WIP toughts.

 

Shooting Net on Boss:

If you ever tried to kill a mantis in 24m beastbog you'll know what I mean. The adds there shoot a net, the net is small and should just be made bigger and a lil mord predictable since my imagination is a big buff with the net.

 

Bosses need to be in CC for net to work, adds don't need to be ccd before.

 

Net Bayoneta:

-when the gunner shoots the net the gunner draws a bayoneta (out of his buttocks? Idk) and then prepares the Skill..

Spec1 - Traps boss in Net, drops Target defense by 10% for 5 secs, (suggestion 1 risky!: allys double the attack speed of all skills and proc their needed rotation boosters on each hit (Burn, KFM X but without the critt and cdmg buff, golden chi, conflagration etc.) But it's only that strong when the Target has a hitbox of 5m (which hopefully only applys to bosses) to make sure it doesn't kill the pvp balance, hopefully.

 

Defensive Net:

Same animation as before, 5 seconds uptime but the projectile shield stays for 10 seconds and is an 5m AoE around the target. It needs a target and has 16m range. *It doesn't give the power buff from the first net*

The buffs are 10% defense drop 5seconds, 10s shield ok?

 

So the defensive net could be neat for pvp since it's offensive defensive but to make it more fair in pvp every enemy with tab escape can escape from it since it acts like a stun skill in arena.

 

Poharan style Aircombo:

Well this one could be obvious right?

I'dd like to make it a lil more special.

 

For the aircombo to work the Gunner has to do a "Low Kick" (Knockdown) first and then follow up with an uprising kick. So the aircombo will only work with knockdown enemys but it'll also work on bosses and hold for as long as the one Poharan does with some kind of gunslinger animation.

 

To make sure it's not accidentally used in pve the aircombo should not be on the same key as main DPS rotation.

 

So fine by now I could give myself some more toughts and dig deeper in my imagination but I am just typing this of my phone and it's kinda wierd to type that much on a small screen. Hopefully a Mod likes my suggestions and sends them over to help it become a pretty interesting and unique class.

 

 

Almost forgot-> Blood Transfusion:

 

-Gunner shoots himself in the Head (Holy fuk this is like Kurumi from Date A Live) and then some kind of shifting animation happens, the gunner is in daze status for 1(or 2 seconds if you feel what's coming might be too strong) second, then..

-animation: the furthest ally gets a clock on it's back, then gets stabbed idk kind of like that:

But midair having both arms and legs spread, but only 3 spikes go through the Targets body. The Target is invulnerable and can't use any skills whilst in this state. After the skill animation ends the furthest ally (or yourself) get 20% of your HP, and doubles it's defense for 10 seconds. If the ally already has 100% (or 81%+) hp it's hp will get boosted by 20% increasing it to 120% or the respective amount.

Well not that big of a buff but I want it to look cool and be kinda unique. All the classes till now still lack that tiny bit that makes you think "oh if I do this in the wrong situation I can kill myself" skills I mean where you rly have to decide.

 

Well my phone screen is 840*480 or idk so it's exhausting to type that long.

 

 

[Criston]

All I was looking for was player's feedback on specific Roles where tanking/healing was concerned.  I only wanted to better understand the Community and the views of those within it.  Now we are speculating about the gunner and what role they might play.  Up to this point, I can't say I have seen a real Role in this game.  Some classes have heals, but a 30 second CD is not a real heal.  Some can pull aggro with threat but again, they cannot truly hold aggro throughout the entire fight generally.  At least I haven't seen it to be the case.  I didn't ask for feedback and the player's feelings on this subject to cause any problems, I purely wanted feedback on this subject.  I personally Love tanking, I love building a toon up to not only hold aggro but to survive that aggro for the entire fight.  I came to this game to experience it in it's entirety and have no desires to make even a slight suggestion without getting the views of the players in the game well before I judge the game, much less make any suggestions.  I have gotten so great feedback and gotten some rather shocking responses as well.  If I wasn't a player that enjoyed the ins and outs of tanking, I never would have asked you for your thoughts and feelings on this subject.  

[KlausFlouride]

This game is about PvP so that's why there are no healer/tank roles.

[RyuueLaview]

1 hour ago, KlausFlouride said:

This game is about PvP so that's why there are no healer/tank roles.

i never thot of that. that makes a lot of sense too. I just liked the concept of bns (back in 2004 or somethin) cus you didn't have to depend on anything. Its kinda funny now in today's culture but its an equal opportunity game in terms of class design because anyone can fulfill an important role. These are not classical roles but they are important tactics I've seen where almost any class can save a near wipe or protect against various threats. I guess an analogy is, this is one game where a 'mage' can tank and an assassin can protect from range dmg. I like that uniqueness. As for wl's...we are the closest thing to the 'heals pls' concept cus we bring buffs. Still part of the utility club for pve which is great but not as much mechanic specific utility other than buffing. Every class is equipped with cc's.

I think the op brings up a fair point in the Tomb of Exiles example but the reason that level of disaster happens is because its a very early taste of devastating boss attacks for new classes. If anything it is the good place for wtv classes to learn how to tank/heal to prepare for the endgame purple dungeons. Fm's will be tanks T_T that's just the way it is. BM's and KFM's and SF's even (at least that I've seen) are almost always tanks unless their skill + dmg output is outmatched by another class who can dish out the highest dps in that party and also knows how to handle aggro (essentially tanking as I understand the concept).

 

That's another thing, There is no tank I guess cus every class can be left to have the aggro and thus every class can learn how to manage that aggro. It can actually be a very nice seamless battle design as opposed to: Tank/healer dies-reset pls.

That's what I like about bns. For the most part, the class itself rarely determines the success of a party.

[KlausFlouride]

Any class can tank and a lot have some sort of personal, or party, heals. It's infuriating to me the 'tanks', DES/BM/BD/KFM, don't have massive threat increasing stats on their most used skills, there is only a small threat gain on some. Unless I drop a massive nuke on a boss there's no way I should be getting agro. The dev's wanted one thing, PvP, with PvE as an after thought and ultimately failed at both. There is so much they can do with the quest system it's ridiculous, but they don't. The story should have been divided between good and evil races with each have separate story lines and starting cities. With good vs. evil there would be no need for a faction system, it's a disaster at best. Good vs evil would also eliminate you switching since it's race based.

[MushinKFM]

Well the tanking in this game is just made to not be as boring as in other mmos but people got used that tanks nowadays can't play their class properly.

 

The tank (meele) lets say kfm. His block skill increases all his dmg dealt virtually by +150%

 

Let's say FM dealt 30k dps.

Kfm has to deal at least a little over  12k dps and keep the threat debuff by occasionally blocking. The multiplier is 250% threat since everyone starts with 100% meaning +2,5*12k.

The reality says the opposite. No kfm with 12k dps ever managed to take my aggro if so. Were they bad? Is the threat concept not working properly or does the kfm need to deal more dmg and my toughts are wrong? When I played kfm I managed to hold aggro till the end but I've been doing my burst first before I apply threat so that must be how it works.

[KlausFlouride]

No way a 12k dps is taking agro from a 30k dps.

[Shukran]

everyone should remember that to raise threat, KFM needs to counter, which is impossible if the random rambo-FM start attaccking first making boss wandering the room.

[sephy Kun]

10 minutes ago, Shukran said:

everyone should remember that to raise threat, KFM needs to counter, which is impossible if the random rambo-FM start attaccking first making boss wandering the room.

As a Force Master i do this at the start in 4 man just to see my burst damage 2x above everyone else :') it satisfies me :')

[Shadovvv]

All classes can tank in their own right, all classes can self-sustain in their own right. This game completely did away with the holy trinity, which honestly is just too common and as someone else said earlier too dull when it comes to class picking.

5 hours ago, KlausFlouride said:

Any class can tank and a lot have some sort of personal, or party, heals. It's infuriating to me the 'tanks', DES/BM/BD/KFM, don't have massive threat increasing stats on their most used skills, there is only a small threat gain on some. 

Since when was BD a tank class? They're buffing BM and KFM threat while outright removing Dest's own threat.

[Nekonata]

9 hours ago, Shukran said:

everyone should remember that to raise threat, KFM needs to counter, which is impossible if the random rambo-FM start attaccking first making boss wandering the room.

KFM also has a neat rmb threat skill, not dependant on block - also great for kicking boss in air if someone happens to cc it!