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I'll just leave this here.... (FM in TOI)


Leodore

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Soo, i've been trying my hardest on TOI, I'm sure like others. 

 

I've tried many different tactics, builds, upgrading my gear, different skills, different everything. 

I came to the conclusion that I just sucked, and I needed to "git gud", which was fine by me, just gave me motivation.

 

Then, I checked rankings, just out of curiosity... 

 

Ranking ratios by class in TOI in top 500 (NA)
BM 25.2%
KM 14.4%
WL 14.2%
SM 11.8%
DS 10.2%
AS 7.8%
SF 7.5%
BD 7.3%
FM 1.6%

 

....

 

So either 1 of two things is happening here.

 

1. TOI is radically more difficult for FM than any other class (seeing as FM is the 2nd most popular class in NA, this seems even more extreme)

or

2. All FM's just need to learn how to play their class (I mean, top ranked FM is ranked at 126, jeez, learn how to play FM? come on lol)

 

So, there goes my motivation to try TOI I suppose. Because either none of us know how to play our own class, or it's stacked very very very much against us FMs. 

Obviously the other thing this points out is also how broken BM is as well lol, but we all know that already, and I think we've beat that horse to death already at this point. 

 

 

 

Now, as much as this may appear to be a whining thread (which it kinda is, not gonna lie lol). I'd prefer to discuss the exact problems, and possible solutions. 

What are the exact problems that FMs are dealing with that we can not overcome?

What are possible solutions to these problems?

What are problems that the other classes like Assassin, Soul Fighter, and Blade Dancer are dealing with (since they seem to be not be performing in the double digit ratios (though I believe this has more to do with their class population more so than anything, considering they are all represented in the top 100's and throughout the rankings randomly)

 

Let's really focus on the exact problems, and solutions please. Thank you <3

 

 

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For me personally, time. Time is the enemy. 
The clock is simply the thing that is stopping me from actually progressing. 

I'm not getting killed, and I'm able to kill the enemy. (of course assassin's love to waste the clock completely)

On top of that, it seems like every single CC I put the npc's into, they get out immediately, they react to everything with ungodly precision for timing, they always have escapes for everything, and they CC me a million times over and over. FM just doesn't seem to have the skills available to combat this, and the time it takes to kill these npcs is just long enough to make progressing upwards in the tower extremely difficult. 

 

Solution? well, for me, personally. I don't think changing the class is required to fix this to be honest.

A much more realistic option that seems alot easier to implement is simply increase the time allowed to kill, and progress floors in tower. 

What do you think about this? I'm sure FM isn't the only class that would appreciate this. 

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FM lacks of cc and dont have much skill that can penetrate deflect and block. and many of the classes have anti-projectile skill. the only cc skill fm has are glacial beam, dragonchar daze and heatwave. the cds are 36 sec for glacial beam, and 18 sec for the rest.

 

almost all class have more than 2 way to escape cc (tab, F, 2, SS + class specific one). the simple logic is, when FM stun just use escape, when FM daze just F, and when FM knockdown just press your 2 and u still have 2 more escape left lol. so FM dont have free time to deal damage without anything that can penetrate blocks and deflect. especially at TOI, where the npc have 0 ping, they can easily escape our cc and leave us no other choice than defend.  even our cc's can be blocked and iframed easily. who will get cc ed by heatwave lol. planting it use nearly 1 sec and need to press tab once again for it to activate.

 

and i bet everyone will come and say FM have unlimited CC from impact stun. impact stun only last for 1 sec and thats not even enough for us to do 1 of our pve rotation. and we need to focus to reapply freeze to do impact stun again. to do impact stun, we need to save our ice orbs so when opponents hit us, they'l get frozen. but how to save that? we are doing rmb and F for frost fury (the only spammable skill that can penetrates parry, after we do that, we have 3 orbs so we must use our dragonfrost. after we use dragonfrost, all the ice orbs are gone so we are really vulnerable from opponents CC + full air combo. also there are so many skills that can escape root from our freeze lol.

 

suggestion for it, let us choose what skill to do with our F so we dont waste our orbs for dragonfrost and do frost fury for refreshing ice orb duration instead and give glacial beam penetrate block or parry. that should be enough imo

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I practically never do dragonfrost, just so I can keep up 3 orbs as much as possible. and unless you have very low ping, getting off 3 chill stacks before they can cc you, seems to be a very very difficult task. Nearly everytime I do get them in freeze from chill stacks, they do one of many moves to remove it before I can impact stun them. It works sometimes, but the duration in which they are stunned is so brief that I can barely get any damage in before I'm cc'd again or i'm panicking to try to impact stun them again. 

 

Dying in TOI doesn't seem to be an issue, the npcs rarely get my HP down below 80%, and with a quick ice tab, that fills back up to 100% easily. 

 

Changing our skills would effect pvp and pve in general outside of TOI, and that takes ALOT more consideration when it comes to balance. Seeing as balance is one of the most difficult things for any game to acquire when dealing with multiple classes, and seeing as it'd be an extremely difficult thing to convince devs to actually change based on community response, I don't think skill changes are the route to go for feasibility and reality of the changes being implemented. 

 

My issue seems to always come down to the TTK (time to kill), we spend too much time in CC, or defending (because we lack the offensive capabilities in TOI), thus we can't dish out the dps in order to beat the clock at a rate that grants us progression. 

 

I've had my best luck by pinning the npc against the wall, and constantly throwing them against it every chance I get for an additional "very brief" pseudo cc. But this hasn't actually improved too much other than an additional floor for me, as the clock still wins. I'm running into a similar situation in the TOI practice feature as well. 

 

Time is FM's enemy in TOI, and it's an enemy that our class seems to not be equipped to beat at this current stage of the game (with our current patch and gear, and skills)

 

I confidently believe that to alleviate this situation in a manner that helps FMs compete and not feel stifled by content that we should be able to do in a similar rate as literally any other class, would be to do the following two things.

 

1. Increase the allotted time of each match in both TOI and TOI practice

 

2. Allow for the overall time (I think right now it's 10 minutes?) to progress as many floors as you can to be increased as well (I'm averaging 2-3 minutes for the opponents that I can kill, and this allows me to do between 3-5 floors depending on which classes and buffs the floor grants me, this is not enough to actually progress because each time you enter, it sets you back many floors, and I wind up just ending up at the same floor level I always end up on for the final match before the overall time runs out)

 

3. Allow for more forgiveness in the amount of floors you progress based on how quickly you kill the enemy (also for the amount of stars you get based on time in practice)

 

There are many very helpful rewards inside of TOI, and TOI practice that it seems FMs as a whole are just not given even the closest chance (as compared to literally every other class) and it completely removes motivation to try TOI. Beyond the Soul Shields (which I'm sure I'm not the only one who wants them) there are the exp charms, rewards from weekly and monthly rankings, the tokens for soul badges, and various other goodies, that seem out of reach for FM but are readily accessible for every other class. 

 

Soul Stone Plains completely ignored the needs of melee classes, and that was a terrible situation (and it's still not resolved for melees as far as i'm concerned), and that neglect caused many people to reroll, created alts just for particular content in the game, and tons of grief among those affected. My sympathy was always with the melee classes during these times, and NCsoft was quite poor at handling the problem, and has still yet to resolve it completely. 

 

In the example of SSP, 44.5% of the classes could do something that 55.5% of the classes could not and says "ONE DOES NOT SIMPLY FARM SSP".

In this example of TOI, 88.9% of the classes can do something that 11.1% can not, which very much picks out a single class and says "YOU SHALL NOT PASSSSS" lol. 

(not even a big LOTR fan, but these seemed too appropriate to pass up)

 

What's your opinion?

@Liinxy @Liinx @Lock6 @Cyan @Youmukon @Bronn @omeed @Hime @AveryCloseCall

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Ping is also an issue, for all, that the AI doesn't have. Even if your ping is at, or below, 150ms the AI has 0ms. In effect you're fighting a sober player while you're drunk, the higher the beers you have in you (higher ping) the worse chance you have at beating them.

 

Since none of the garbage AI bugs will ever be fixed and/or acknowledged I propose the following solution: the clock, overall, needs to be removed, all rewards based on what other players do should also be removed since this isn't real PvP. Take all the rewards from the weekly/monthly and evenly distribute them across all the floors. Problems solved.

 

@Mods merge all these ToI topics into one. Thanks -the customers

 

@OP The numbers you posted are a bit skewed. There are classes that are better equipped at doing better in ToI. Example is my Sum is much better at getting further than my FM/BM/SIN and all have similar gear. Just like with Naksun: I can farm all 9-14 in half the time on my Sin that it takes me to do it on my other 3 alts. Then there's the players that got the SS they wanted and never went back, this is also me. Since some mastermind decided to put ToI, Nexus, Asura, and MSP all on the same DC I generally do ToI instead of Asura since all the low acc, not ap, retards come out on that day hoping for a carry with zero knowledge of how Asura works.

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7 minutes ago, KlausFlouride said:

Ping is also an issue, for all, that the AI doesn't have. Even if your ping is at, or below, 150ms the AI has 0ms. In effect you're fighting a sober player while you're drunk, the higher the beers you have in you (higher ping) the worse chance you have at beating them.

 

Since none of the garbage AI bugs will ever be fixed and/or acknowledged I propose the following solution: the clock, overall, needs to be removed, all rewards based on what other players do should also be removed since this isn't real PvP. Take all the rewards from the weekly/monthly and evenly distribute them across all the floors. Problems solved.

 

@Mods merge all these ToI topics into one. Thanks -the customers

I'm fortunate to play on fairly ok ping, but not enough to pull of 3 chill stacks in ways that sheer math says I should be able to do.

 

Also, no, do not merge this thread into any other thread. Thanks - FM community 

 

<3 :P

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3 hours ago, Leodore said:

Changing our skills would effect pvp and pve in general outside of TOI, and that takes ALOT more consideration when it comes to balance.

The only thing they should do is giving some elemental skills like LMB and RMB deflect penetration so you don't have to worry about every small hit you are doing against some classes. WL and sum can even hit hard and cc through our veil. How is that fair?

 

The AI itself is not very smart in ToI. Sins for example waste their ss permanently without any reason and even if you are out of range. Glacial beam is a very good opener their because if you don't hit in any counter or resist skill, it's a almost guaranteed combo opener. You guys mentioned another big problem: the time. Dying with pvp ss is almost impossible there but there are some classes like sin and sf which waste your entire time by using endless, no damage combos and running away. WL is the most easiest matchup, because you can stun it all day and burn it down. I also like BM and KFM because they dont fight that agresively like real players do. If you dont spam everything the whole time it's pretty easy to stunlock them. Main problems are destro, bd and sf (and also sum after floor 40 when he starts to use cat sit).

3 hours ago, Leodore said:

There are many very helpful rewards inside of TOI, and TOI practice that it seems FMs as a whole are just not given even the closest chance (as compared to literally every other class) and it completely removes motivation to try TOI. Beyond the Soul Shields (which I'm sure I'm not the only one who wants them) there are the exp charms, rewards from weekly and monthly rankings, the tokens for soul badges, and various other goodies, that seem out of reach for FM but are readily accessible for every other class. 

The rewards are class bound so all people who compare with you have the same class and the same problems. If you compare the floors with other classes, fm sucks hard, but for the rewards, it's the same chance as with every other class.

 

FM is not that good in ToI but in MSP the dps meter shows almost always only 6 FMs. ;D At least there FM dominates everything.

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20 minutes ago, Zedonia said:

The only thing they should do is giving some elemental skills like LMB and RMB deflect penetration so you don't have to worry about every small hit you are doing against some classes. WL and sum can even hit hard and cc through our veil. How is that fair?

 

The AI itself is not very smart in ToI. Sins for example waste their ss permanently without any reason and even if you are out of range. Glacial beam is a very good opener their because if you don't hit in any counter or resist skill, it's a almost guaranteed combo opener. You guys mentioned another big problem: the time. Dying with pvp ss is almost impossible there but there are some classes like sin and sf which waste your entire time by using endless, no damage combos and running away. WL is the most easiest matchup, because you can stun it all day and burn it down. I also like BM and KFM because they dont fight that agresively like real players do. If you dont spam everything the whole time it's pretty easy to stunlock them. Main problems are destro, bd and sf (and also sum after floor 40 when he starts to use cat sit).

The rewards are class bound so all people who compare with you have the same class and the same problems. If you compare the floors with other classes, fm sucks hard, but for the rewards, it's the same chance as with every other class.

 

FM is not that good in ToI but in MSP the dps meter shows almost always only 6 FMs. ;D At least there FM dominates everything.

FMs DPS only shows when someone else is taking the force of the target, if we are the one's taking the blunt of it, it's not the case.

HM right click (which isn't released yet)  has defense and parry penetration for our frost stacks

 

SF, SM, SN, and FM waste the clock and ends your run between heals, hiding, and CC and negating dmg

DS, BM, KFM, and BD take entirely too long to kill to make progress, because of so many cc's and stopping your dmg

WL you can pin against a wall and just dragonchar, frost tornado (for the frost orb), and hm impact to death fairly quick

 

My idea line up is WL, WL, WL, WL, WL

 

It shouldn't be like this of course, we should have a harder time with a couple of classes, and easier time with a couple of classes

Instead, the 2nd most popular class represents 1.6% of the top 500, the only number that sticks out like a sore thumb in the low values

BM being ridiculous in the high values of course >_<

 

Oh also, yes, the weekly and seasonal rewards of course, but i'm even talking about the rewards you get from each run. Those add up to millions of exp, materials to upgrade equips, tokens to get soul badges, and challenger soul shields as well. This is character progress that all classes can utilize competitively, but it seems not FM >_<

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If I wanted this in the FM sub-forum, I would have put it here -_-;

 

I was told by YOUR support to post things such as this in the GENERAL DISCUSSION area...

I have a strong feeling that the staff does not monitor these subforums...

This looks like a way to stop this thread from getting attention intentionally, and I do not appreciate it -_-;

 

 

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3 hours ago, Leodore said:

FMs DPS only shows when someone else is taking the force of the target, if we are the one's taking the blunt of it, it's not the case.

I can't agree with that especially not for MSP where tanking doesnt affect your damage at all as FM. But that's not the topic here.

3 hours ago, Leodore said:

Oh also, yes, the weekly and seasonal rewards of course, but i'm even talking about the rewards you get from each run. Those add up to millions of exp, materials to upgrade equips, tokens to get soul badges, and challenger soul shields as well. This is character progress that all classes can utilize competitively, but it seems not FM >_<

Thats right, yes. Even as fm getting challenger ss is not impossible. 31+ does not need great gear and even 41+ is possible without p2w and without great pvp knowledge. But yes, its significantly harder than with other classes. BM for example can reach 60 without legendary stuff and below 700 ap. Impossible as FM. Its not like you cant get your stuff as FM but it would be fair if there would be at least a little balance between the classes there. With current conditions, all I will do is waiting till the seasons ends and then I will have my badge because of the weekly/season rewards and then I can completely ignore that place until the blue badge comes out.

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In last time I did ToI many runs. So last season I reached best time at floor 44 (ofc - last bot was WL). Real progress I could only reach wich WL (7-9 floors). KFM and (most times) BM is ok too (up to 6 floors). All other classes just waste my time. The bad part starts with bots who have legi weapons and can reset cds. I saw FM who used C shield and without cd they used it again. That means 30s without any chance to do some damage. Same problems with other bots. Worst class at all is sin. Often I have this matchup:

floor 28: WL -> 9 floors up

floor 37: Sin -> time out ... Sin 10-30%HP ====> reached floor:28 with reward for f21-f30. Nice!

 

Another problem are the "rolls" for the classes. Nearly every run I'm in ToI I get 1 or 2 BD. Every 10th run I get a WL.

 

If I check other classes so I see they have skills to be immune for few seconds. BM with HM block can burst easily - other classes have similar skills. What similar skill has FM? Divine Veil - makes immune against projectiles. It helps against FM and partially against SF and WL. It doesn't helps against any meele cc, so FM never can start with burst except you're lucky with additional skills (7s stun or 20s cc immune). Give me cc immune Divine Veil (as example) and I can beat every class except Sin easy enough to reach floor 50+ without problems.

 

BTW here's my personal list with all classes and how easy I can beat them:

easy (7-9 floors)

WL

semi easy (4-7 floors)

KFM

BM (as long as he has not the movement buff with disables freeze effect)

killable (1-5 floors)

BD

SF

DS

FM

you can restart ToI again (0-2 floors)

SM

SIN

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4 hours ago, Half said:

you can restart ToI again (0-2 floors)

SM

You can try to burn him down with hm dragonchar. Stack ice orbs, use short fuse and spam it. You dont even have to sleep the cat, just make sure that you escape fast from kd and stuns (is it even legit that the cat can cc you every 5 seconds?). Sums are a pain without that because they have their resist skill up as long as the fm has his veil up means no damage at all without dragonchar. I dont like to fight them but its better than sf or destro.

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2 hours ago, Zedonia said:

 I dont like to fight them but its better than sf or destro.

Really? At 31+ they got legi weapon and can reset some cd like resist skills. So they're worse for me then DS and SF. Also FM is worse then both because of cd reset.

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20 minutes ago, Half said:

Really? At 31+ they got legi weapon and can reset some cd like resist skills. So they're worse for me then DS and SF. Also FM is worse then both because of cd reset.

Thats why I use dragonchar. It's not a projectile so you can spam it no matter if they use their resist or not. They might iframe 1 or 2 hits in between but never the whole spam. Just F and TAB out of cc and spam it further. The other way to fight it is to sleep the cat but then you have to watch out what the sum is doing. Best is to sleep the cat far away from a wall while having 3 frost orbs. Even if the sum runs to the cat he will attack you and freeze himself. Then he will ss away from the cat and you can attack and combo him. Glacial beam always works if he doesnt have petal up so this is the only important thing here. I simply prefer dragonchar. If you can sleep the cat and then spam it it's pretty easy because the AI is not smart enough to stop you.

 

FM is most likely the worst enemy you can have as FM. They combo and grab extremely good and because they got the same iframes like you, it's pretty hard to deal with them. I know the hint is to waste their cds and then go behind them and freeze them the whole time but it's not that easy.^^

 

Southwind mentioned the hints against the classes after my post. It works, sometimes but especially against destro and bd it never worked for me. :(

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I made such thread some time ago, also i was sending tickets about it.

 

They said they will look closer to this... that was more than 2 months ago...nothing was made to fix this.

 

Bevv made few usefull tips for ToI:

 

vs Dest/LBM
The idea in this matchup is to kite them around veil or Heatwave since they are programmed to avoid them at all costs. LBM wont spin unless it's frozen or if you throw LB/RB at it so if you use Short Fuse and it has a chill stack you can continuously use blazing beam without it reacting.

vs BM/KFM/Sin/SF 

vs BM and KFM your main objective is to freeze them and walk behind and start your pve rotation. vs Sin and SF you have to play around the fact that it only uses block on your LB/RB. So if you apply short fuse you can press blazing beam until chill stack drops (usually). You can also bait block with a fast RB into ice X (unless they are far away)

vs Sum
Get ice orb up and paralyze cat. After that get 3 ice orbs and apply burn, then hold down dragonchar until sum is dead, if you want to maximize damage you have to put yourself into the sums attacks to trigger focus regen from ice orbs.

vs WL 
Almost same idea as vs sum, get 3 ice orbs and hold down dragonchar, pray to rngesus for rng blocks on the wls CC.

vs FM 
Force them to use SS and shield right away by using Glacial Beam, put up your own shield before the FM can get an ice orb. Watch them waste QE and ice flower by getting frozen using impact on you inside your veil, after their veil is ended freeze them and stand directly behind them and start pveing.

 

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17 hours ago, Southwind said:

I made such thread some time ago, also i was sending tickets about it.

 

They said they will look closer to this... that was more than 2 months ago...nothing was made to fix this.

 

Bevv made few usefull tips for ToI:

 

vs Dest/LBM
The idea in this matchup is to kite them around veil or Heatwave since they are programmed to avoid them at all costs. LBM wont spin unless it's frozen or if you throw LB/RB at it so if you use Short Fuse and it has a chill stack you can continuously use blazing beam without it reacting.

vs BM/KFM/Sin/SF 

vs BM and KFM your main objective is to freeze them and walk behind and start your pve rotation. vs Sin and SF you have to play around the fact that it only uses block on your LB/RB. So if you apply short fuse you can press blazing beam until chill stack drops (usually). You can also bait block with a fast RB into ice X (unless they are far away)

vs Sum
Get ice orb up and paralyze cat. After that get 3 ice orbs and apply burn, then hold down dragonchar until sum is dead, if you want to maximize damage you have to put yourself into the sums attacks to trigger focus regen from ice orbs.

vs WL 
Almost same idea as vs sum, get 3 ice orbs and hold down dragonchar, pray to rngesus for rng blocks on the wls CC.

vs FM 
Force them to use SS and shield right away by using Glacial Beam, put up your own shield before the FM can get an ice orb. Watch them waste QE and ice flower by getting frozen using impact on you inside your veil, after their veil is ended freeze them and stand directly behind them and start pveing.

 

Thanks, I posted these tips up above in a previous post on this thread tho. Obviously I'm doing these, the results changed a bit, but not by much, as I was doing most of this already by instinct and pattern recognition. 

 

Sigh, this is dire... 

 

SS, tokens, exp charms, upgrade materials, etc etc are just sitting there waiting to be obtained, yet for FM, it's just dangling outside of reach -_-; 

 

NCsoft, do something please. Please. PLEASE.

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Didn't read the whole thread tbh, but I've thoughts to share.

So the main issue for FM in ToI is the timer. You have to have the damage to beat the clock, therefore burn debuff is the go-to thing. That leads us to the next problem: our skill on 1. If it's specced to T5S1, you'll certainly have more survivability with less DPS. If FM forfeits their only viable counter (let's forget about fire Tab with its 18 s cd) for burn, they'll be paying dearly for every mistake they make, even the smallest one. This leaves us with no options but to go for T5S2 Impact (stun+burn) and pray the BM or SF will use their stunning gap-closer right when the chill stack drops so that we can deflect the charge. Sad thing, really.

Lack of CC on FM? That's a problem too. Same story here: either DPS or CC and we need both (Fire Tab T3S2 vs T3S3/4, Dazing Dragonchar vs Blazing Beam).

Need to mention recent Force Blast T3S3 buff too (instant S1 Inferno by blowing up x5 ember). I've tried to use it vs classes that can be freezelocked best: BM and KFM (thank god they never use Flock/Ice Guard to escape the root!), but the lack of stun was unbearable.

I wonder, why other stages of our 1 weren't buffed? T5S2 could have instant Inferno S3 on it, successful counter with Impact could use Fire Tab cd reset, but no.

I think the devs consider our chill/freeze to already be enough to clear ToI.

Well, it's not.

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1 hour ago, painkillers said:

Didn't read the whole thread tbh, but I've thoughts to share.

So the main issue for FM in ToI is the timer. You have to have the damage to beat the clock, therefore burn debuff is the go-to thing. That leads us to the next problem: our skill on 1. If it's specced to T5S1, you'll certainly have more survivability with less DPS. If FM forfeits their only viable counter (let's forget about fire Tab with its 18 s cd) for burn, they'll be paying dearly for every mistake they make, even the smallest one. This leaves us with no options but to go for T5S2 Impact (stun+burn) and pray the BM or SF will use their stunning gap-closer right when the chill stack drops so that we can deflect the charge. Sad thing, really.

Lack of CC on FM? That's a problem too. Same story here: either DPS or CC and we need both (Fire Tab T3S2 vs T3S3/4, Dazing Dragonchar vs Blazing Beam).

Need to mention recent Force Blast T3S3 buff too (instant S1 Inferno by blowing up x5 ember). I've tried to use it vs classes that can be freezelocked best: BM and KFM (thank god they never use Flock/Ice Guard to escape the root!), but the lack of stun was unbearable.

I wonder, why other stages of our 1 weren't buffed? T5S2 could have instant Inferno S3 on it, successful counter with Impact could use Fire Tab cd reset, but no.

I think the devs consider our chill/freeze to already be enough to clear ToI.

Well, it's not.

Yea exactly,but of course as much as I considered actually making a thread about how to change the class, I figured it far more approachable to look at a simple mechanic that isn't class specific that is holding us back. Definitely the timer.

 

#NerfTheTimer lol

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Clanmate dropped 2 KR test server videos in Discord today, by the looks of it, something is going to change in FM skills pretty soon :)

Notice the Heatwave/Fire Storm and Impact/Force Blast bound to separate keys!

 

 

I just hope they won't force us to choose between Glacial Beam and Force Blast… Would be downright cruel.

On a side note, the new skillboard looks so ugly. The current board with its Tiers and Stages is way better imo.

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