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AUTO detonate is much better than Burn build


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This is for exp Fm players just explaining why Auto detonate is better and if not at least the same as burn build.

Note: only for none-legendary players because i don't have one and i dont know how fast the cdr would trigger

 

OK I have always been using burn build back in TW server but since the last big patch where they changed a shit ton on FM, I found out auto-detonate became another choice and far better than burn build actually from my own experience.

 

I have never been out damaged by burn build FM unless they have 100 AP more than me. I always got the aggro and when my friends duo with other FM they always take down boss slower (looking at the enrage timer mostly tested on 4 man lair and yeti)

 

here is how you skill it:

LBM-Tier 5 stage 1

RMB-Tier 3 stage 2

fire fury(F)-Tier 3

Meteor(V)-Tier 3

Short fuse(C)-Tier 3 stage 2

Force blast(1)-Tier 3 stage 3

windstorm(F)-Tier 2 stage 1  note: I have seen so many Fms not using this shit while boss is being grappled/grabbed/gripped like. just fking use it same thing for burn build anyway

Dual dragons(F)-Tier 3 stage 1

Blazing Beam(2)-Tier 3 stage 3 go Tier 5 stage 3 if you can.

 

pretty much same thing from burn build but you try to stack as many embers as you can, if you have so many skill points you can even put 2 points in Z wild fire.

 

so why use this build, the main reason is because your LBM crit gives you 1 FLAME ORBIT and when you have 3 you can cast Dragon blaze.

DRAGONBLAZE is so op because:

1-reduce your biggest damage METEORSHOWER(V) CD by 3 seconds.(that shit does crazy damage while target is burning do not ever use it if you cant have the target burning) 

2-Increase your FLAME DAMAGE THAT APPLIES TO ALL YOUR SHIT(3.99%)

3-good damage skill does more than your main spamming skill (2). 

Another very important reason is the BLEED effect from Dual dragons. that debuff is so fcking op go check it out test it out yourself, IF YOU are going to duo a dungeon or SOLO one , keep 5 bleed stacks up is actually far more important than you imagine because it is not easy to keep 5 stacks up if you do not help your teamate (for example i always duo with summoner to 2 man most of the dungeons and everytime we keep the bleed debuff up perfectly shit die way faster)

Note: your C also applies bleed so time them right with your partner

 

About the Tier 5 stage 2 LBM:

Here is one problem that auto-detonate will have that the damage WILL NEVER crit but the extra flame damage Tier 5 stage 2 provide will. But unless you have like 90% crit rate its not big difference really because all your other skills will make up and beyond that little damage.

 

key to play this build:

1-you should still ALWAYS ALWAYS keep the burning buff up, you do it by chaining your X C and when those are on CD you have to do it carefully by STOP YOUR LBM but keep spamming your RMB and use 1 when target has 5 stacks. SO HOW TO GET TARGET TO 5 STACKS WITHOUT DETONATE IT, very easy like i mentioned before YOU WILL BE SPAMMING YOUR dragon blaze/Dual dragon all the time once you know the burning debufff is going to run out and you have your F up, use it while you stop using LBM but keep spamming your RMB and use 1 and there you go burning buff up 100% of the time.

2-SHIT situation when Burn is going to run out, you have no dual or blaze, THIs is where fire fury comes in, quickly stacks ember without detonate it and use 1 while keep pressing RMB fire fury actually does decent damage while skilled in tier 3.

3-keep spamming your *cricket* V do not let it go waste like if you have blaze and meteor up use meteor first then blaze to get that 3sec cd reduction but make sure target is under burn debuff though

4-keep spamming your blaze and dual dragon

5-HOW TO PLAY WITH ANOTHER FM in party:

    -Chain the burn by seperating your C X with him and if all on CD go back to tip 1 and 2 above

    -If you are playing with a burn build FM its actually super good, his ember will not go waste and the burn is always up anyway so he lose no damage, actually buffs his damage too cuz he does not need to waste time to use 1 to get burn going. only RETARDS think its bad to have auto-detonate in group with burn build.

 

This build requires you to be highly skilled and focused and have fair amount of skill points 

Here is everything I can think of so far, give me your thought and correct me if I'm wrong 

 

 

 

 

 

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You should really put more emphasis into your first key point about keeping burn up. Preferably put it right at the top of your post instead of burying it in the middle where the tldr folks will probably miss it. It is something most auto detonate users fail to do and is what annoys all burn users.  Sure, the burn user can try to Impact the burns for both FMs. He'll spend the whole fight trying to snipe the 5 stack before the auto detonate goes off. 

Edited by Ballonbum
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6 hours ago, lcranger said:

only RETARDS think its bad to have auto-detonate in group with burn build.

This is true but the problem is, that 99% of all auto-detonate users don't use a single burn skill.

 

The whole Rotation is theoretically ok, but you Need a good ping for that and you have to do everything perfectly. If you miss to burn your enemy with 1, you will lose more damage than you might won within the last 30 seconds. Reducing meteor cd is also not that great as you might hink. Sure, it's good but don't think your damage will explode because of that. I played this way before I got the hm pellet and the only think the hm skill of form 1 does is very Little more damage and 2 ember stacks on crit (so not always).

 

You have to keep in mind that form 2 will do more damage than form 1 with detonate. So if you would have 5 ember stacks everytime you use LMB, you wouldn't lose much damage there but how will you get them every time? If your skills are on cd and you only have LMB and 2 for ember stacks, you can't guarantee that you will have 5 every time so you will lose much damage every time you don't have the detonation. With hm skill on 2 it might be not that bad because you can spam dual dragons more often but in the end all you are doing is a bit more damage with meteor and dragonblaze for losing damage with LMB.

 

Again to make it clear: Using auto-detonate is not a way to use the ember you always generate to do even moe damage. The detonate is NECESSARY to Keep up with the damage of the normal burn build because LMB does way more damage there. If you can perfectly execute the Rotation, please, use it, but it is not better.

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18 hours ago, Ballonbum said:

You should really put more emphasis into your first key point about keeping burn up. Preferably put it right at the top of your post instead of burying it in the middle where the tldr folks will probably miss it. It is something most auto detonate users fail to do and is what annoys all burn users.  Sure, the burn user can try to Impact the burns for both FMs. He'll spend the whole fight trying to snipe the 5 stack before the auto detonate goes off. 

It is up to auto Fm to keep the burn up not burn build FM, it is auto fm's job to stop his LBM and press that 1 when burning is about to end with no X or C available 

14 hours ago, Zedonia said:

Again to make it clear: Using auto-detonate is not a way to use the ember you always generate to do even moe damage. The detonate is NECESSARY to Keep up with the damage of the normal burn build because LMB does way more damage there. If you can perfectly execute the Rotation, please, use it, but it is not better.

Yes it is to keep up the damage with this auto-detonate BUT your meteor spam/bleed stacks(dual dragons) is where you surpass that damage by a whole new level and yes meteor is really op like op as fk. And if you cant keep the burn buff on perfectly then you shouldn't be playing this build, gotta be focused and good at it to make it work

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I've read a topic name, and i thought it will be some math here, but there is not. Theory is worthless when it comes to real game.

Best example is soulstone plains, where you can easly test what build is better.

The truth is, none of auto-detonate fm's cares about burn beside "C" putted all at once at the start. 

Most of them act like parasites, that feeds on embers, and everybody else are trying to get lucky with 1 to make target burning again. 

 

You can't say that auto-detonate or burn is better alround, it depends on gear, ping, skills, number of other fm's and their build, gear, ping, skills...

 

Quote

3-good damage skill does more than your main spamming skill (2). 

XD How many times durring fight You will use Dragonblaze, and how many Blazing Beam? Worthless comparison :]

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Wrong.

Dragonblaze increase the fire ATT on the gear which we don't have.(no dmg increase now)
and you didn't count Hm force blast which crits almost same as beam on burning target.
About windstorm 8k over 2 hits for 2 focus (x7 damage multi) vs 14k beam damage for 2 focus(x10 multi on burning enemy) where is that " same thing for burn build anyway "?
It may be better if u are sitting at around 35-40 crit chance .

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14 hours ago, Intersolar said:

Dragonblaze increase the fire ATT on the gear which we don't have.(no dmg increase now)

There's a small damage up after Dragonblaze, which is 3.99% for Lv. 50s. The skill description even says: "Increases Flame Damage by 40%(+40% damage for Fire Elemental Gear) on Dragonblaze hit, then +100". Those +100 are those 3.99% Fire damage increase....

 

Anyway, I still don't like Auto-Detonate. Imo, you gain more DpS out of T5S2 than T5S1.

Edited by oZackisu
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Dragonblaze only increases fire elemental attacks. It only increase a portion of HM impact damage and does not increase ember explosion damage. The higher up the AP you go, the better Dragonblaze becomes compared to Blazing beam, and HM impact starts to lag behind in damage, more so when we get fire elemental gear, since only a portion of it gets benefit.

 

But one thing that Blazing beam does that Dragonblaze doesn't do is decreasing CD for dual dragons. I haven't finished my simulator to take into consideration of rotation and crit chance (for orbit generation) so I can't comment much on which one is theoretically better.

 

It is without a doubt that you WANT the burning debuff on the target at all times, perhaps the more important question is, which of the two flame palm do you want to use, auto det, or extra dmg on burning target?

 

Ignoring the base damage since they are very similar and small compared to the AP scaling part, I'm going to omit it.

Auto det version: 1.4 + 2.0 + 0.3 explosion per ember plus an additional 0.75 per stack -1 .

Extra dmg version: 1.2 + 2.0 + 1.8 burning

 

Since it only explodes on 5 stacks we can simplify the conditional into a constant

auto det: 1.4 + 2.0 + 4.5 <----------- (0.3*5)+(0.75*4)

extra dmg: 1.2 + 2.0 + 1.8

 

As you can see, auto det is doing more damage than extra dmg version. But you need to take into consideration that auto ember explosion cannot crit. So let's assume the hit crits with a modest 200% crit damage modifier.

auto det: 2.8 + 4.0 + 4.5

extra dmg: 2.4 + 4.0 + 3.6

 

You can see that the last modifier is still higher for auto det over extra dmg. But there are still couple things to keep in mind:

1.) Ember explosion isn't listed as fire damage, and so it cannot benefit from elemental damage increase, which will be relevant later on.

2.) The 4.5 explosion damage for auto det doesn't always trigger. You cannot simply assume that it will always trigger "because of the insane amount of embers we generate". That's bad modeling and not representative of what's actually happening.

3.) Which one is better will depend on how often you crit. The more crit chance you have, the better extra dmg will be.

 

Bear in mind this is not conclusive that auto det is better than extra dmg. But in a vacuum comparison, auto det works out to have a slight advantage.

Edited by Racingwind
Got correct ember explosion formula
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True. People who try to make auto-dtonate usefull are the ones who are too lazy for burning the enemy.

On ‎08‎.‎07‎.‎2016 at 11:42 PM, Racingwind said:

auto det: 2.8 + 4.0 + 4.5

This is wrong anyway. Detonate don't give you a +4.5, it doesn't work like that. Just look at blazing beam. 4.5 is almost half it's damage but the detonation does way less damage than that.

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On 7/14/2016 at 0:13 AM, Zedonia said:

True. People who try to make auto-dtonate usefull are the ones who are too lazy for burning the enemy.

This is wrong anyway. Detonate don't give you a +4.5, it doesn't work like that. Just look at blazing beam. 4.5 is almost half it's damage but the detonation does way less damage than that.

It is 4.5 as that formula gives me values to what I see in game. And it's also the same one as posted in the link that you linked in another thread.

 

Auto det embers can't crit so it never goes above 3000ish (for me). If it crits, that's 6.3k (210% CD) and bring it up to blazing multiplier would make it 13,986. Add in elemental damage will make it 14,405. In line with my Blazing beam damage.

 

The +4.5 detonation damage is listed separately. However if you use force blast, the floating text combines it. Though I'm sure you know that already.

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Okay so I have a few problems with auto det build, and they have less to do with calcs and more to do with the actual use of the build.

 

First problem is that auto det loses damage when there is more than one auto det. To my knowledge only 1 stack of embers can explode at a time. That means for each additional FM with this build they lose more damage. Also I have heard there is a slight delay when embers can be stacked after a detonate. If that is the case there would be even more damage lost per FM auto det build in a party (If someone could please explain or confirm this who actually uses it).

 

Second problem is in party play with a burn build the auto det FM MUST keep up burn. The OP said that only "retards" think auto det is bad in a party with a burn build FM. My response is most auto det build users are absolute morons when it comes to using it. I have only ever met 1 auto det FM that could actually keep up burn. As soon as burn is down other I lose dps. This is annoying to deal with since it so drastically cuts burn build's dps. I don't know where the OP got his figure of outdamaging burn build up to 100ap more than him (but we can assume thats just an exaggeration for now), but I often outdps auto det builds that can't keep up burn. I've only ever met 1 good user of it so that's not a realistic sample size. Other factors come into it as well such as ping and just plain skill with the character. If your character is even hit once at a boss you lose dps.

 

My third problem has to do with the calcs. The calcs are performed on a stationary target and do not account for boss movement at all. These calcs are just not realistic in actual practice where it matters. a boss can easily move out of a meteor unless you actually time it for the right moment. Just saying when meteor is up I do this much dmg doesn't actually happen in a boss.

 

My fourth and arguably largest issue with this build is that I have to rely on the auto det FM to do his actual job correctly. I prefer to rely on my own skill to get the job done, and having some third rate auto det FM (as in one who cannot actually use it effectively) leech off my ember stacks while hammering my dps is the worst. It just feels bad to play with.

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Recommend FM to learn and practice the basic, keeping "Burn" buff up all time, before try any builds. Learn and practice not just on a dummy but in actual combat.

 

No matter what build a FM use, key to maximize FM damage is "Burn" buff,  without "Burn" buff, FM damage is just mediocre.

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You know, this could work. And it could be really freaking awesome, except one thing: What about the chaos in a dungeon? So much crazy sheez is going on it's rather difficult to tell that embers are stacked at 5 in all the mess. 

 

It's very easy to accidentally trigger the auto detonate if it is not well coordinated. It will work perfectly fine if it's just 1 FM though. 

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Your idea is within an ideal situation where everyone knows this, and have a low latency to be able to trigger Burn all the time. But as you might understand, there is probably no such ideal scenario at all. As other also mentioned, it will be hell a mess in F8. More than just one using this build in the party will only make a DPS loss practically. 

 

Non-auto-detonate is ALWAYS a better choice in party with other FMs.

 

On a side note, when we will receive elemental gear, Tier 5 Stage 1 of Blazing Palm(LMB) will be far inferior to Tier 5 Stage 2. 

Being able to shoot Dragonblaze more often doesn't make it a huge DPS increase. With elemental gear, that will reverse the increase, since the Ember damage is not calculated into the elemental damage, so Fire Damage from Burn-damage increase will definitely be a lot more superior to Auto-detonate.

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The other day i was doing Lari of the frozen fang with pugs. OMFG! there were 3 FMs one was using the auto detonate build and just couldn't hit with "1" before the 5 stacks. Without the burn Me and the other FM lost dps potential. SO how does auto detonate build outperform burn build in a group?

 

Bottom line is auto detonate build does not help anyone. Since you don't burn your target you don't generate embers kick enough  and you don't use dragon call as soon as its available=fail

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I'm new to force master (46). Always find burn build stronger. But I have been trying to figure out how to use auto-detonate with my burn build to further increase my dps. Thanks for sharing your build, I'm gonna try and use it. But as others mentioned, burn build fm usually keeps burn buff up themselves, eg for me my rotation is r2r2r1 for easy continuous burn buff. In that case how is it possible to fit in auto-detonate? Any suggestions? Thanks.

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On 7/27/2016 at 1:30 PM, ZackGTie said:

The other day i was doing Lari of the frozen fang with pugs. OMFG! there were 3 FMs one was using the auto detonate build and just couldn't hit with "1" before the 5 stacks. Without the burn Me and the other FM lost dps potential. SO how does auto detonate build outperform burn build in a group?

 

Bottom line is auto detonate build does not help anyone. Since you don't burn your target you don't generate embers kick enough  and you don't use dragon call as soon as its available=fail

Of course auto det only helps your own self, as you would be the one that is detonating it. And you completely missed what the OP said about having to keep up burn yourself, which was pointed out several times, and several people have ignored that.

 

And the hell? Dragon call? Wrong section, warlock class is one level up, at the very bottom.

9 hours ago, SoulsHunter said:

I'm new to force master (46). Always find burn build stronger. But I have been trying to figure out how to use auto-detonate with my burn build to further increase my dps. Thanks for sharing your build, I'm gonna try and use it. But as others mentioned, burn build fm usually keeps burn buff up themselves, eg for me my rotation is r2r2r1 for easy continuous burn buff. In that case how is it possible to fit in auto-detonate? Any suggestions? Thanks.

Your rotation should be RL2RL2RL1, depending on how fast you can animation cancel. I can do 3 RL2s before I need to re-apply burn. The L is there and specced in such a way that you generate frost orbs, for dual dragons.

 

It's possible, and if you read the OP carefully you will see one possible way. Is it easy? No, you need incredible focus and reaction time, as well as a decent ping.

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4 hours ago, Racingwind said:

 

my bad i meant to type dual dragons! and you completely missed what it was said about having to keep up burn yourself, which was pointed out several times, and several people have ignored that. The fact that most auto detonate users dont care about burning their target.

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8 hours ago, Racingwind said:

Your rotation should be RL2RL2RL1, depending on how fast you can animation cancel. I can do 3 RL2s before I need to re-apply burn. The L is there and specced in such a way that you generate frost orbs, for dual dragons.

I read op post, his technique is very advance using c,x,f to maintain burn. I hope to find easy way to maintain burn by using 1, so that i can fit it into a basic rotation (eg. my L2L2L1 basic burn rotation, L2L2L gives 5 ember stacks and 1 apply burn). So if I follow your rotation 3 RL2, first RL2 gives 3 ember stacks (assuming your 2 gives 2 ember stacks), second RL2 gets you stuck at more than 5 embers which you didnt detonate nor apply burn. Third RL2 the L will auto-detonate your stacks and you cannot apply burn. I'm a bit confused, which is why I find it hard to fit auto-detonate into burn build. Or am I missing something :S

 

I do use c,v to apply burn but during cooldown I usuallly stick to basic rotation.

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6 hours ago, ZackGTie said:

my bad i meant to type dual dragons! and you completely missed what it was said about having to keep up burn yourself, which was pointed out several times, and several people have ignored that. The fact that most auto detonate users dont care about burning their target.

Firstly, this isn't a post about "most auto det  users". Second, OP did mention that playing this requires high levels of focus and mechanical skill. Third, in your original post you asked "SO how does auto detonate build outperform burn build in a group?" OP provided an answer. The original goal of the post is to point out that, if played properly auto det can be better than just straight up burn. The fact that most auto det users don't care about burn does not invalidate the style OP has pointed out. Would I use this style? No, I think without a sufficient ping and focus, it is impossible to pull this off. Do I dismiss the validity of this "rotation" by smacking on the label "no auto det users care about burn"? No, because technically speaking, it is possible.

2 hours ago, SoulsHunter said:

I read op post, his technique is very advance using c,x,f to maintain burn. I hope to find easy way to maintain burn by using 1, so that i can fit it into a basic rotation (eg. my L2L2L1 basic burn rotation, L2L2L gives 5 ember stacks and 1 apply burn). So if I follow your rotation 3 RL2, first RL2 gives 3 ember stacks (assuming your 2 gives 2 ember stacks), second RL2 gets you stuck at more than 5 embers which you didnt detonate nor apply burn. Third RL2 the L will auto-detonate your stacks and you cannot apply burn. I'm a bit confused, which is why I find it hard to fit auto-detonate into burn build. Or am I missing something :S

 

I do use c,v to apply burn but during cooldown I usuallly stick to basic rotation.

Ah ok I misunderstood your original intent. The rotation I pointed out was for straight up burn, non auto det. That said, you should still weave in R with every L you use, that way you can build frost orbs.

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19 hours ago, Racingwind said:

Firstly, this isn't a post about "most auto det  users". Second, OP did mention that playing this requires high levels of focus and mechanical skill. Third, in your original post you asked "SO how does auto detonate build outperform burn build in a group?" OP provided an answer. The original goal of the post is to point out that, if played properly auto det can be better than just straight up burn. The fact that most auto det users don't care about burn does not invalidate the style OP has pointed out. Would I use this style? No, I think without a sufficient ping and focus, it is impossible to pull this off. Do I dismiss the validity of this "rotation" by smacking on the label "no auto det users care about burn"? No, because technically speaking, it is possible.

 Yes, i do comprehend what the post is about! i shared my opinion and challenged his. Again, like I said before, this build does not fit a party setting. And since there is no burn you cannot spam blaze (#2) to reduce dual dragons CD and blaze itself deal less damage since embers dont crit they do not overcome blaze higher damage while the target is burning. My dual dragon crit a maximum of 45k atm with the cool-down reduction i can spam it more often + when I have soulburn, hitting a burnng target helps me create more orbits= more dual dragons. SO yes, the fact that autoetonate users don't apply burn indeed make this build less efficient compared to a burn build and any other FM in the party when applying real in game circumstances and not just some theory crafting.

 

The problem with this in paper, auto detonate build deals more damage if 100% of the time IF you apply burn to your target before the embers explode. Like you said ping, lags has a lot to do with the efficiency of this build. So if he fail to apply the burn stack which he will because in realty nobody has 10ms, 0 input lag, no screen freeze, 0 server lag.

 

I tried this myself the other day i pay way to much attention trying to keep the burn and failed since they exploded or i detonated them at 4 stacks. In paper sounds efficent but in reality applied in game, It does not work the same. If you fail then so every other FM and for what? for an extra raw  400 damage when me crits could be an extra 1k, 2k?

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On 29/07/2016 at 0:03 PM, Racingwind said:

Your rotation should be RL2RL2RL1, depending on how fast you can animation cancel. I can do 3 RL2s before I need to re-apply burn. The L is there and specced in such a way that you generate frost orbs, for dual dragons.

I can see your point with that being the opening rotation to get burn started, especially in the off-chance you don't open up with Inferno, instant cast one or not. What about F, though? I usually go for it whenever it's available, which is at least around half the time. Besides, with Stage 2 LMB and T3S3 Blazing Beam when I already started burn, keeping it up is very easy as long as there's no other FM going autodetonate to screw up the timings.

Edited by Tsuchiryu
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Since you are using Stage 2 LMB, your primary source of flame orbit is from fire fury with fire soul trained. When you mentioned F, I assume you are referring to Dragonblaze. Speccing stage 2 LMB means that your dragonblaze cast has a conditional (well, 95% of the time) and that is you must first cast fire fury, which is a huge dps loss compared to blazing beam. In effect, you want to minimize the casting of fire fury as much as possible, which means you want to minimize the casting of dragonblaze as much as possible.

 

If your F is referring to dual dragons, then yes, you want to use it on CD, the extra damage over takes blazing beam, resulting in higher damage output. Basically my own rule of thumb is, if I have no flame orbit, cast 1 fire fury and do not recast it until I used them up and need to generate them again.

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