Elitism and Dungeon Suggestions

[Mayaku]

I've played BnS since early launch. Something I've noticed is the prevalence of elitism in the community. It proves to be an irritating and unending wall for players who may not be as skilled or are missing pieces of gear, as well as creating a negative vibe for the community as a whole. This is something I'd like to address here today.

 

I don't have all the time and money to invest in a game, therefore my gear may not be as good as other people's. I'm currently lvl 49 hm2, running True Siren and a Moonwater Arena Soulshield. Is it the best? Certainly not, but its decent. I'd have a Labyrinth shield, but the quest glitched and I've never received it, and am waiting for a support ticket on that very matter to be taken care of as I type. Why does this matter? Because I've been met with a wall of elitism, making it impossibly difficult to complete any dailies to level myself, learn any of the new dungeons, and get fodder to improve what I already own.

 

Upon entering several of the new dungeons today, I've been flat out told I'm not welcome with my "****** soulshield" and that I "don't have 450 attack power and should gtfo", followed by most, if not all of the members dropping from party. This has made it impossible for me to do my dailies, level, or even learn the new content at all. On the off-chance that I get a party that doesn't tell me to **** myself, I've managed to complete the content just fine with little to no death or failure whatsoever. The dungeons have only been out a DAY and this elitism has already become an issue.

-

Now I can understand people wanting "only the best" in their party to complete content quickly, but in following through with that mentality nobody would ever get things done.  Being kicked from a dungeon to get the gear you need because you're not already wearing the gear from said dungeon is unfair and quite frankly a bit ridiculous. This prevents anyone from "catching up" or bettering themselves. It creates a massive wall when 90% of parties joined react in a similar way. I feel that there needs to be some sort of solution in place for this, and I have a few suggestions.

1. Dungeon Drop Cooldown.
Similar to TERA's system, if you drop from a qued party you receive a 15 minute lockout that prevents que. This will not only help with people dropping if their qued party isn't "perfect" but will make people actually put in the effort and possibly TRY, or at least ask for a kick.

 

2. Arranged Queing.

Ideally, a queing system that would allocate 4-5 stronger, more geared players and 1-2 weaker (yet still meeting requirements) players to a dungeon party. This would allow lower skilled players to still complete the content and gear themselves and learn, while higher skilled players won't be thrown into a dungeon with a majority of the party being unskilled rendering the dungeon incompletable

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These are just some suggestions. I'd love to hear suggestions from other people. Elitism is an issue, guys and needs to be addressed.

[Airstrike]

First of all this is not said to be a jerk. This is just a simple observation. True enough the dungeons have been out one day. But you are taking advantage of other people by coming in with gear that is technically below what everyone should have at this point. True Siren is fine but theres no excuse for having the MW arena SS still. It was never optimum to begin with. You can finish BSH/Laby/Mushin mix in a day. Or you can finish a full set of any of those 3 in a day.

 

I'm not the type of player that will leave if I see a ungeared person in my run. But I'll have to say its flat out annoying when I see a person who is obviously not prepared for the dungeon in the run. Simply because I know that outside of few classes, This person is contributing less. Which means me and other party people need to do more. Which is more time and with the amount of things you need to do every day in this game. Few people want to expend the extra time. So true getting new people geared up is important. But you should also think about other peoples time which is also important.

[Bumlife]

Go get some purple BSH for better crit and hp and good ET ss for added hp and def.

I acknowledge your concern. But people also need to do their part. I have 420AP on my sin but doesn't have purple BSH yet, I wont queue on naryu until I get 48%-50% crit which will allow my single target dps class to help out.

Some other parties are also looking for a certain line up. In my preference, I would like to have an FM, WL and Smnr with at least 400AP on naryu. I can be flexible with WL and smnr on 390AP as long as they have decent HP for survivability since their utility skills are more than enough with SB, taunt, heal, resu.

I haven't done with full melee line up on naryu or more than 1 sin/bd/bm/kfm on a party.


We cleared naryu with these line up at 1:30-2:00min timer on last boss, I think.
BD 430AP
WL 430AP
SIN 480AP
SMNR 400AP
FM 400AP
WL 380AP
 

[GlowLight]

if you dont like " Elitism ", then queue/party with friends/clanmates.

[.x.]

Just now, GlowLight said:

if you dont like " Elitism ", then queue/party with friends/clanmates.

I would like to suggest a elitism que room designed for only the elites. Then they can all flock together without everyone wasting each others time. lol

[GlowLight]

2 minutes ago, .x. said:

I would like to suggest a elitism que room designed for only the elites. Then they can all flock together without everyone wasting each others time. lol

it's an interesting idea for sure, but will ncsoft care enough to implement it? probably not.

[.x.]

Just now, GlowLight said:

it's an interesting idea for sure, but will ncsoft care enough to implement it? probably not.

Yeah I doubt it. :/

[GlowLight]

4 minutes ago, .x. said:

Yeah I doubt it. :/

you can always keep writing suggestions to ncsoft, there might be a ever so slim chance that they consider it :)

[KhaosThanathan]

Gear ≠ Skill. You really don't need a party with 450AP-players for stuff like Naryu-Lab; an average of 400 AP suffices. What matters is the party-setup and the team-play. Good team-play can compensate much; same for a decent party-setup (Soulburn is OP). That Moonwater-Arena-Soulshiel also isn't that bad in combination with BSH. You only have to upgrade it with those Elite-Critical-thingies from E. Fleet. 40% Crit should be possible that way. (Your percental Crit-chance decreases with increasing level; gone from 55% on Lv. 45 to 45% on Lv. 50 :/) Watching the forums, the new purple dungeons aren't that hard anyway, so Siren-Gear really should work just fine.

[Nutrient]

1 hour ago, Mayaku said:

1. Dungeon Drop Cooldown.

 

Similar to TERA's system, if you drop from a qued party you receive a 15 minute lockout that prevents que. This will not only help with people dropping if their qued party isn't "perfect" but will make people actually put in the effort and possibly TRY, or at least ask for a kick.

TERA doesn't have an issue where you're thrown into a party of bots; sometimes it's 3:3 bots to players or worse and 1:5 at best. A drop out penalty would penalize legit players. TERA community also had its own set of standards when in a party - item level and crystal setup - and they were equipped with a method of initiating a vote-kick to rid their party of players who weren't up to the standard. Blade & Soul isn't equipped with such vote-kick method nor does it have a reliable "item level" to screen out under-geared players.

 

Quote

2. Arranged Queing.

Ideally, a queing system that would allocate 4-5 stronger, more geared players and 1-2 weaker (yet still meeting requirements) players to a dungeon party. This would allow lower skilled players to still complete the content and gear themselves and learn, while higher skilled players won't be thrown into a dungeon with a majority of the party being unskilled rendering the dungeon incompletable

We have a party finder system in the dungeon lobby for people to ask that their party members have a certain Attack Power and/or Crit to join. Using the queuing system basically allows whomever is above B&S level requirement to join and so it is basically RNG of what AP level the party comprises of.

 

Moonwater Soul Shield is indeed the asterisk shield you've described and is only suitable for fresh Lv45 who have not yet run Blackram Supply dungeon. You should be working on a better soul shield, working your way up from Arena/Poh to BSH/LAB/MUSHIN. In TERA language, it'd be equivalent to wearing unfit crystals (or none at all) or wearing the most basic fresh gear (i.e. strikeforce, idoneal, steadfast, or whatever TERA generation you've played in) and expecting to run the harder dungeons in said gear (i.e. Manayas Core Hard Mode, Abscess Hard Mode, and whatever else TERA patch in equivalence).

 

Elitism is everywhere but so is a community asking for a set standard in a party. Gear isn't skill but having a higher AP/crit and a soul shield to support you will make for a smoother and faster run.

[Artillis]

I just wanted to add a semi off topic thing, I noticed KhaosThanathan said soulburn is OP and I disagree. 

 

It has a 3 minute cooldown and for the very small window that it is active if its not communicated ahead of time your going to use it then many classes get very little benefit from it.  Playing my warlock and using soulburn a lot I've found myself not caring for it's small window of benifits and have seen many other warlocks in 24 mans not using it as well.  The other issue with it is if you have 2 warlocks in a party it has a weird hidden cooldown timer that doesn't allow a second one to be used within a set time of the first or even glitches causing it to get burned but not giving everyone or even anyone the benefits while still putting it on a 3 minute cooldown.

[KhaosThanathan]

9 minutes ago, Artillis said:

I just wanted to add a semi off topic thing, I noticed KhaosThanathan said soulburn is OP and I disagree. 

 

It has a 3 minute cooldown and for the very small window that it is active if its not communicated ahead of time your going to use it then many classes get very little benefit from it.  Playing my warlock and using soulburn a lot I've found myself not caring for it's small window of benifits and have seen many other warlocks in 24 mans not using it as well.  The other issue with it is if you have 2 warlocks in a party it has a weird hidden cooldown timer that doesn't allow a second one to be used within a set time of the first or even glitches causing it to get burned but not giving everyone or even anyone the benefits while still putting it on a 3 minute cooldown.

 

It's a MMORPG, so it should be very clear that you are supposed to communicate with your party-members. It's not the developer's or game's fault, if people are too stupid to do exactly thtat. The small duration of Soulburn pushes the party's dmg-output tremendously. Yeah, there's a hidden timer, if you have a second Warlock in party. That's 1 minute; it would be broken if that "hidden" timer would be missing. Most boss-fights are longer anyway, so at least 3 x Soulburn is possible. It's still OP as hell; there's a reason why the stat-requirements for Warlocks are generally lower than for other classes.

[Pulmi]

There is a right way and a wrong way to do everything, for both sides. Demanding players should just form their own parties with the requirements they like and inexperienced and/or not so well geared players should probably do the same. Both should be aware that when they look for a group with the random group finder, they could be matched with players that may not be suitable for their "needs".

 

There's a lot of nice people out there who are experienced and geared and dont mind running dungeons with less experienced people.

[Meiling]

To be honest, before 50 patch I came to the realization to why people want higher AP. True, it's stupid but I tried F8 with randoms in naryu and oh my god... Took several tries to get an ok group.. It took a very long to complete too, everyone was in the 300s but me. Also, before I even found that group I came across 250-299s and even a level 44 so after questioning why people want a good amount of AP in a group, I now know. To make the run go by a lot faster and to not deal with pure randomness of F8. When BSH was out it was just as bad too now that I think about it, I'm so glad I have a group to do these dungeons with.

[Rockbridge]

2 hours ago, Meiling said:

To be honest, before 50 patch I came to the realization to why people want higher AP. True, it's stupid but I tried F8 with randoms in naryu and oh my god... Took several tries to get an ok gorup.. It took a very long to complete too, everyone was in the 300s but me. Also, before I even found that group I came across 250-299s and even a level 44 so after questioning why people want a good amount of AP in a group, I now know. To make the run go by a lot faster and to not deal with pure randomness of F8. When BSH was out it was just as bad too now that I think about it, I'm so glad I have a group to do these dungeons with.

^This

For me, it got to the point that if I walked into a Lab Pub group and more than 2 people were below 375 AP, I would just walk out. I don't want to waste an hour of my playtime struggling to B3 just to not be able to do the final boss due to lack of dps, not necessarily from lack of gear but just lack of skill/experience or whatever and people just dying way to soon.

[OddFinrir]

The first suggestion wouldn't work because of bots. The second one would just make random queuing faster, which would be useful, but wouldn't guarantee party success; you would need to implement a power score for this which might still lead to more elitism because of an easier visual of gear completion, but a person could stack full tank gear and do no damage to get around it. A lot of the issue comes from idiots on both sides. You either have people who think they can get carried though Naryu in Infernal gear or you have people who only go by attack power and can't do simple math for crit damage/chance, the latter of that annoying me the most because upgrading my accessories now gives more damage and is cheaper to upgrade.

[Cress]

elitism suks and will exist unless we can have a button to hide the status.

[Cor]

Sry but this is just another "i cry because i don't get carried" topic. Not wanting players in endgame dungeons that have not nearly the required gear is not elitism, joining a endgame dungeon with such bad equipment you are just being complete baggage. Especially for the current top purple dungeons who have enrage timers your not only gonna cause the run to take much longer than neccessary but causing it to fail completely. There is elitism among some players but this case sure doesn't fall under it, it should be common sense to join dungeons appropriate to ones lvl and gear and not join endgame dungeons with trash gear expecting to get carried. Joining the three top purple dungeons with bad gear is equivalent to a lvl 25 joining dokumo.

[Shukran]

why dont u play the elitist too and open some lobby lab 350+ ?

[Xayni]

You cant really have penalty for leaving a group. Had to leave many Brightstone groups that had Bots just waiting in hopes of getting Merry Potter recipe gold. Nobody can be expected to stay in group in situations like that.

[fruitie]

52 minutes ago, Cor said:

Sry but this is just another "i cry because i don't get carried" topic. 

I  always see that argument. Who is really getting carried? The person trying to find others with likely no demands for high end gear in order to finish the run, or the elitists who demand high end gear in matchmaking of all things. To expect anything to match personal standards for matchmaking is idiotic. If I see a request for someone to leave, I'm more likely to leave myself despite having fairly high gear. I find it odd that people can have such low intelligence about such things, but self entitlement and stubbornness usually goes in hand with it.

[AgentX]

3 minutes ago, fruitie said:

I  always see that argument. Who is really getting carried? The person trying to find others with likely no demands for high end gear in order to finish the run, or the elitists who demand high end gear in matchmaking of all things. To expect anything to match personal standards for matchmaking is idiotic. If I see a request for someone to leave, I'm more likely to leave myself despite having fairly high gear. I find it odd that people can have such low intelligence about such things, but self entitlement and stubbornness usually goes in hand with it.

Yes sjw its self entitlement and stubbornness when you want to do shit fast vs having true profane in place where at least true siren should be.

 

Yes in extreme cases people will ask for unrealistic shit, but in most cases that your silly post don't apply to is when u have to change group 10 times (some times even all 5 left) due to 2-3 people who:

1. don't know mechanics

2. have no dps

3. similar =

 

So therefore I laugh every time when I see people like you use word entitlement and stubbornness in wrong concept, and like not wrong wrong, but bloody godly entirely wrong.

 

Also r u stupid I must ask?

"The person trying to find others with likely no demands for high end gear in order to finish the run, or the elitists who demand high end gear in matchmaking of all things"

 

Yes and u know what happens when that person que for dungeon they shouldn't be even allowed to? They find people 3x times at least more geared, and therefore being

carried.

 

But at this point I am not entirely sure you know what "being carried" means.

 

And yes kid, its not matching up standards, mine, or yours. Its just not wanting to do dungeon for 2 hours with 10 rows of people changed instead of 20 mins with one group.

[fruitie]

38 minutes ago, AgentX said:

yes kid, its not matching up standards, mine, or yours. Its just not wanting to do dungeon for 2 hours with 10 rows of people changed instead of 20 mins with one group.

Wow, such a mature response. You talk about me using entitlement and stubbornness out of context (which they're not), while at the same time using the oh so common insult to call someone who doesn't agree with you a sjw, stupid and a kid. You are showing how very grown up you are. Expecting perfect groups in matchmaking is like expecting only hot chicks at a speed dating event.

 

People don't know the mechanics? No shit it's only just been release. If it was done flawlessly by every group day 1, we'd be here a week later complaining about how boring and easy the content is. And yes I do know what being carried is. If you're high gear you're still being carried if you're using other peoples high gear as a crutch in order to complete the content. I've been in whole groups where everyone are considered "being carried" according to some people but still completing the content. Explain how that works?

 

If you want to form your own elitist party then fine, but to expect anything past minimum requirements for matchmaking is moronic. It doesn't take a genius to realise that there will be people on the slightly lower end joining the queue. I had 2 people refusing to participate at the boss on my alt for bsh being I was apparently 2 low for them. They wouldn't even attempt or leave until some time later. Like you, they projected the blame onto me. After they left, I did a better job surviving and soulburn of course helps out a tonne. I personally rate bots over elitists.

 

That's not to say there aren't people that join with too low gear at all, but really they seem to be in the minority and other people just have too high expectations. The majority of the time I complete the content with no issues, yet I'm not choosy over who participates. So either I'm a god, or people are elitist.

 

tl;dr: Even though your stubbornness will refuse it, thanks for proving my point.

[Shukran]

well, right now i see lot of YETI 480+ experienced who cannot even follow the heated one. . .

[SpyderBite]

Elitism, Carrying undergeared, etc. are not unique to B&S. Its been a common practice/behavior since the beginning of online gaming all the way back to MOOs and MUDs. People who want the best TTK/TTL are always going ignore any circumstances that will slow them down in any way.

 

Anyways. There hasn't been a solution for these kinds of player mentality in 30 years. It doesn't seem likely that anything short of mandatory therapy is going work any time in the near future.