Astarae

Please allow us to use simple mode in training room dungeons.

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Astarae   

It's needed now.  I without being able to use simple mode, the training room is worthless, so rename it whatever, but I need to be able to compare what settings in skills and enhancements will do the most DPS.  I can't train determining the best way to fight if I use the same mode in to test my damage as I use in dungeon.   Anyone who disagrees -- tell me how ALLOWING someone the choice whether or not to use simple mode breaks your game.  Why shouldn't people be able to train under the same conditions they use in the dungeon.

 

There is no reason not to allow it that isn't already covered by not allowing simple mode below level 55-60.  

 

Why put something in and then randomly break it so people can't rely on it or use it?

 

 

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MantisxD   

You know you can use simple mode in f12 actualy but you need to do few steps.

1. While you are out of f12 turn simple mode on

2. Press ctrl+f2 to change from bns mode to classic mode.

3. Enter f12

4. Press ctrl+f2 to change mode from classic to bns mode again

5. You can use simple mode in f12.

However if you turn it off in f12 and want to use again you need to do all steps all over again.

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Astarae   
1 hour ago, MantisxD said:

You know you can use simple mode in f12 actualy but you need to do few steps.

Used to work before this last patch.  I know.  But doesn't work anymore.

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Hanuku   

Can't help you with activating simple mode on training, BUT maybe you can manually emulate what it does. After like a bunch of years of my own simple mode always greyed out, recently, I can start using it on level 60 characters (still can't use it on non max level characters but w/e). If you didn't know, Simple mode's skill set is displayed in the skills menu. You know, when you normally open that menu, you get an "Icons" button which tells you a full table with all your skills divided by key. With simple mode activated, this icons screen is changed to a "Simple" screen, which shows everything simple mode will do. So maybe you could just try to emulate that on the training room to get a rough estimate of what t does for you.

 

Now, from what I'm seeing on most classes I've tested it with, simple mode usually is a mix of lmb (or rmb in some classes)  with whatever pops from F. The rest of the skills are still completely manual. So far I've seen only FM tossing a few more skills into the mix. But otherwise, it's usually all about a 3 skill "rotation". In the case of my BD for example, the benefit I get from it is that I don't need to press F manually. But otherwise it's the exact same experience as running without it. It still improves my attack since now F will just pop as fast as it's available, though.

 

Anyway, see if you can emulate what simple mode does. Though yeah, I'm with you on simple mode on the training place. Just disable it for the separate training rounds, but allow it on the boss training section.

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MantisxD   
6 hours ago, Astarae said:

Used to work before this last patch.  I know.  But doesn't work anymore.

Hm havent tryed it after patch so it might be then.

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Aulann   

My rotation as an earth destroyer. "Destroys" my hand without simple mode. I need it to play my class and without the ability to use it in F12 I can not parse correctly. I beg you NCsoft. Please allow us to use it in F12.

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Posted (edited)

I support this. I get why it doesn't work for the separate combo rounds but for the bosses in the training room this would be great

Edited by LoliDolly

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Astarae   
On 4/12/2019 at 1:10 AM, Hanuku said:

Can't help you with activating simple mode on training, BUT maybe you can manually emulate what it does. After like a bunch of years of my own simple mode always greyed out, recently, I can start using it on level 60 characters (still can't use it on non max level characters but w/e). If you didn't know, Simple mode's skill set is displayed in the skills menu. You know, when you normally open that menu, you get an "Icons" button which tells you a full table with all your skills divided by key. With simple mode activated, this icons screen is changed to a "Simple" screen, which shows everything simple mode will do. So maybe you could just try to emulate that on the training room to get a rough estimate of what t does for you.

I see the options, but no way can I press the keys that fast or reliably.  It's able to make

decisions on based on the game's state and press the right key -- I don't always know the game's state let alone press the right key, the right number of times -- or know that the key was accepted.  W/the automatic mode, it puts in the next key exactly when it is needed and not ignored.  Vs. me -- hitting a key multiple times because it hasn't reacted, but then seeing it react too many times...etc.  There's no way to do that rotation as reliably as letting the computer do it.  And that's the main point -- you can't reliably benchmark a set of options to compare to another set where you've changed one option and see if it gives you overall better DPS or worse.  

 

As much as possible it allows you to hold the activation of the keys and selected skills to  as much of a constant that they can get.  Humans can't replicate that "sameness" so there's no way to test your different options for what is better, without also throwing in alot of human variability.

On 4/12/2019 at 1:10 AM, Hanuku said:

Anyway, see if you can emulate what simple mode does. Though yeah, I'm with you on simple mode on the training place. Just disable it for the separate training rounds, but allow it on the boss training section.

So, unless someone has a robot that can do simple mode reliably at the same speed and always get the right keys at the right time, you can't really emulate what it does.  It would be worthless for the skill-training section because it would go off and do it's normal thing when the training section is focusing on something else.  So it never would have been useful there -- only during training on the different Bosses.

 

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Hanuku   
4 hours ago, Astarae said:

I see the options, but no way can I press the keys that fast or reliably.  It's able to make

decisions on based on the game's state and press the right key -- I don't always know the game's state let alone press the right key, the right number of times -- or know that the key was accepted.  W/the automatic mode, it puts in the next key exactly when it is needed and not ignored.  Vs. me -- hitting a key multiple times because it hasn't reacted, but then seeing it react too many times...etc.  There's no way to do that rotation as reliably as letting the computer do it.  And that's the main point -- you can't reliably benchmark a set of options to compare to another set where you've changed one option and see if it gives you overall better DPS or worse.  

 

As much as possible it allows you to hold the activation of the keys and selected skills to  as much of a constant that they can get.  Humans can't replicate that "sameness" so there's no way to test your different options for what is better, without also throwing in alot of human variability.

So, unless someone has a robot that can do simple mode reliably at the same speed and always get the right keys at the right time, you can't really emulate what it does.  It would be worthless for the skill-training section because it would go off and do it's normal thing when the training section is focusing on something else.  So it never would have been useful there -- only during training on the different Bosses.

 

What I said was more like a loose guide. Of course you won't be as fast and as precise as simple mode. More if it's on a class that can toss several skills in a row and not just rmb and F. Nothing short of cheating through third party apps would solve your problem right now, so you will not be getting exact numbers. More like a rough estimate. As for picking what is better in terms of gear and skill sets for your character, aren't there guides for that already? And if in doubt, you can post your build and your options here, and people will help you decide.

 

Now, what I assume Simple mode is, it's not really a "key per situation" thing. It's just a list of skills in descending priority order, and the machine will trigger whatever is on highest priority that is not on cooldown. AT LEAST that's the behavior I'm seeing from my characters. It won't press space for you at the boss prompt, nor it will CC the boss either. All of those things still come from you manually. In my BD, who does only like rmb and F, I can just press those keys and I already have most, if not all the same functionality of Simple Mode. In a class like FM or WL however, it uses a few more skills in a row, making it more difficult (impossible for some people) to emulate.

 

As a last training resort, try soloing old easy dungeons with bosses that have around a million HP, or whatever your output is. Any fresh from story character can solo those in their sleep, and you can get a rough and general view of how you do in a relatively safe environment. If you are mid or higher tier gear, go to dungeons with bosses on the 8M+ HP range to have some meat to shave and get an idea of how the set stands. OR just go for live tests on the current dailies. Yes, I know. It's again not a replacement to what you want. Actually nothing is. But it's something you can do now while waiting to see if the devs can hear you and fix it. Because really, Simple mode as it is right now, was an addition I never expected in a game like this. In other games, you either work with macros (in favor or against the developer's wishes), or with full manual mode with no opportunity to ease up the load on the hands.

 

Anyway. I'm not against your idea/petition. I would actually benefit from it as well. I'm just trying to offer some options we can do right now in the meanwhile. Up to you to use them or try something else yourself, OR, wait for any dev response. For now, I'm doing the "safe dungeon" thing (and also the current low level dailies) to check gear and adjust things. So far I can't complain about it.

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Astarae   

Problem in the regular dungeons are knock-backs/knockdowns.  As a distance fighter, I usually have a training dummy stand as tank and I can focus on maximum damage.  I don't really know of any dungeon bosses that will be so kind as to not get upset when I wail into them and at least return the favor with a knockdown or such -- even if it isn't that damaging.  Some of the worst DPS scores are on lower monsters that have mechanics that knock you down and you can't block (gunner's blocks/shields are worthless -- too long a cool down).  I mean a real gunner wouldn't stand in melee attack range (where the monster can be on top of you in 1 jump or pull). 

 

In games where one can do distance - like with a bow,  in oblivion for example, I can stand near 300 yds. away when I get to master level -- though even in stock oblivion, they nerfed stock archers by disallowing critical shots -- right -- like you can't hit them through the heart or head!    And while you get double criticals for a sneak attack from behind with a bladed weapon, an arrow to the back of the head wouldn't have same effect?  Fortunately, there, one can use extensions that restore those things. 

 

Otherwise archery is near worthless, because they'd run over to you and you'd still have to fight some other way (melee or spell)  -- it would almost be a worthless as being a type of "distance fighter"[sic] in BnS where distance = 1 jump and Boss is on you.  

 

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Hanuku   

Then the more I'd recommend you to train in live situations because you'd be able to learn how to keep as much dps as possible even in less than optimal environments, like when the tank dies and a boss starts targeting you. Or when they start moving around and you need to constantly reposition yourself. PLUS, nothing beats the real thing, and we all know many training bosses don't come with all of the mechs they use in the live dungeon.... In fact, that would be another addition I'd really love to have on the training room.

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