So Bms now top dps

[Shiro]

2 hours ago, Kuronee said:

You also have around 750 ap though compared to most people who dont have that much. i am pretty sure if Sin used solo blue buff to and had HM. He would be top dps. Well it is kind of hard for me to actually go without a warlock. Considering i am a warlock. Also actually yes ping does factor a lot in pve and so does gear/skill.  If you have around 30 ping or below. You are going to get more attacks off that are faster and more fluid.

There's no sin solo blue buff.

 

Yes I know ping plays a big factor, that's why you have to find someone with good ping who knows to play their class and prove me kfm is low dps.

 

I don't trust other KFMs to play properly so I won't judge based on their dps.

 

And you can't find some high ping person and say they would have higher dps. That is no proof and just theory. Of course someone with high ping will be handicapped and never do proper dps, but that does NOT mean they would out dps me if they had low ping, it simply means they can't compete / compare in this case.

 

Someone who can't participate in a competition, is not automatically the winner (neither the loser). So thing is, high ping people shouldn't be counted for discussion, neither showing if a class is good or bad dps.

 

Edit: @Mhysa, I said fire BM is broken, was talking about other classes. Or play lightning for dps test.

 

Just because fire bm is broken doesn't mean kfm is low dps, in fact with that logic ALL classes are low dps except BM.

[Kuronee]

20 hours ago, Shiro said:

There's no sin solo blue buff.

 

Yes I know ping plays a big factor, that's why you have to find someone with good ping who knows to play their class and prove me kfm is low dps.

 

I don't trust other KFMs to play properly so I won't judge based on their dps.

 

And you can't find some high ping person and say they would have higher dps. That is no proof and just theory. Of course someone with high ping will be handicapped and never do proper dps, but that does NOT mean they would out dps me if they had low ping, it simply means they can't compete / compare in this case.

 

Someone who can't participate in a competition, is not automatically the winner (neither the loser). So thing is, high ping people shouldn't be counted for discussion, neither showing if a class is good or bad dps.

 

Edit: @Mhysa, I said fire BM is broken, was talking about other classes. Or play lightning for dps test.

 

Just because fire bm is broken doesn't mean kfm is low dps, in fact with that logic ALL classes are low dps except BM.

even if there is no solo since buff. they have a hm that gives them 300% damage with blue buff. I am glad you agree that your ping is the main cause of your dps.So is your gear also.

 

kfm are strong in short  battles Because you have 10+secs of amazing damage with solo blue buff. then you have a down time of like a minute or so.

 

Fire BM is broken and will out dps you in the long run  because it has more up time then you. You know how insanely hard it is to find a BM with your gear and ping.

 

all classes but probably destroyer will out dps you  if they had your pong and was not short battles where dungeons gives you damage boost like tomb

 

kfm is strong but in short battles. it weak dps In general. Kfm is low dps. I respect you shiro for your skill at kfm, but your spoil by your ping. Hence why you assume kfm are not low dps. if you can show me kfm's doing 44k and top dps in dungeons. The  kfm having 100-160 ping. Then I'll be more to incline to believe kfm are not low

[Shiro]

That 300% damage is only 300% Ap as additional damage, so if you have 700 ap it's 2100 more flat damage per hit, not so great.

 

Fire BM is broken and nothing more else to say, if BMs try to defend it then why don't you play lightning and see hmm?

 

Short battles and tomb? What's a long battle then? And like I said I out dps almost everyone in every dungeon (actually I get outdps'd on really short fights instead) and this is with party blue buff. With solo blue buff (and thus, others not getting buff either), nobody will out dps a kfm, I think not even a fire BM.

 

Do you want me to post dps meter of every purple dungeon I do daily now or what? -.-

 

I ran with a sin and WL tomb last night, both only a bit less AP than me, and I still won. Let's say with same gear it would be closer or same dps, so kfm doing same dps as other classes means it's a "low dps class", ok.

 

And lastly, what the hell is your problem with my ping? just because you have high ping (I assume so since you bring it up) doesn't mean it's my fault, nor that majority of players have high ping like you. In fact, servers are in Germany (EU), and I'm not in Germany, I'm in EASTERN EUROPE. My ping is far from perfect, ~35 ms with wtfast / pingzapper, I know people with far less ping.

 

Funny you actually cry about my ping, when majority of EU playerbase has less. Or you're telling me there's no Germans, French, and similarly located people playing this game? Which have less ping than me.

 

But yeah I am "spoiled" with my ping and all people with less than 35ms ping (which are a ton) are garbage and that's why bad at showcasing dps. Only high ping players are the real pros. Do you have anything to back that up with?

[Kuronee]

5 hours ago, Shiro said:

That 300% damage is only 300% Ap as additional damage, so if you have 700 ap it's 2100 more flat damage per hit, not so great.

 

Fire BM is broken and nothing more else to say, if BMs try to defend it then why don't you play lightning and see hmm?

 

Short battles and tomb? What's a long battle then? And like I said I out dps almost everyone in every dungeon (actually I get outdps'd on really short fights instead) and this is with party blue buff. With solo blue buff (and thus, others not getting buff either), nobody will out dps a kfm, I think not even a fire BM.

 

Do you want me to post dps meter of every purple dungeon I do daily now or what? -.-

 

I ran with a sin and WL tomb last night, both only a bit less AP than me, and I still won. Let's say with same gear it would be closer or same dps, so kfm doing same dps as other classes means it's a "low dps class", ok.

 

And lastly, what the hell is your problem with my ping? just because you have high ping (I assume so since you bring it up) doesn't mean it's my fault, nor that majority of players have high ping like you. In fact, servers are in Germany (EU), and I'm not in Germany, I'm in EASTERN EUROPE. My ping is far from perfect, ~35 ms with wtfast / pingzapper, I know people with far less ping.

 

Funny you actually cry about my ping, when majority of EU playerbase has less. Or you're telling me there's no Germans, French, and similarly located people playing this game? Which have less ping than me.

 

But yeah I am "spoiled" with my ping and all people with less than 35ms ping (which are a ton) are garbage and that's why bad at showcasing dps. Only high ping players are the real pros. Do you have anything to back that up with?

Woah there....

You are taking my post way off point! Did you completely ignore the statement where I said you are skilled at pvp and have amazing ping? I am not crying about your ping, but you are spoiled by it. Ping and skill both play equal parts in having amazing dps. Did I state that people with 150+ ping were garbage? No, you cannot control ping while you can control your own skill level. For instance, lets take another KFM that is equal in gear level to you and place you and them in a dungeon together, but they have higher ping they will be out damaged by you merely because of ping difference. Combining your intense skill at your class with having amazing ping will allow you to pull off your combos more fluently than someone who has to struggle with delays in their skills which can effect classes differently, BM especially with how short of a time they have to pull off Dragon tongues during conflagration. When it comes to skill level, anyone can be amazingly skilled or amazingly bad but when it comes to ping it is not something that can be controlled without either spending money for a ping zapper program or changing internet providers to hope at a better speed.

 

You are spoiled by your ping because you never had the opportunity to feel what its like to play at the same speeds as people with 100-150 ping. Is this your fault? No it is not and further I am not stating that players that have high ping are pros I am only stating that you may have higher dps on KFM because of your ping. Upon some tests I have performed earlier using a ping zapper program I was able to add about 4k DPS onto my rotation then what I could normally pull off without the use of one. I almost want to say that those who use these types of programs have a higher advantage over others who cannot afford to get their hands on one of these programs, but that is an argument for another day.

 

To state my point again so that it is much easier to get across because it may have been worded badly in the previous posts: Players with high skill caps in their class can be separated in DPS by their ping because the smoother and more fluently you able to go through your rotation the more DPS you will be able to get out onto the boss in a smaller amount of time. KFM is the most ping reliant class in the game and also requires the highest skill cap to play effectively. You have both of these which allows you to pull numbers like you do, but for others who are lacking one or the other or both which is the majority of the players in the NA region it cannot be possible to achieve your numbers. This is not an attack to you personally I am just stating that statistically your skill in your class and your ping combined will be what determines your place on the DPS meter not your class.

 

On the argument of BM this whole comment might fail for the sole fact that even with being less skilled and high ping this class can still outperform even the highest skilled players. Wielding an 11x multiplier (13x with full buffs on) skill with a non-existent cool down pretty much will easily be able to outperform anything so yes where you stated that BM is broken I do agree with you but as for everything else I have made my point as clear as possible and I hope you can understand where I can coming from. Thank you~

 

Reminder: This is a thread about BMs. Let us get back on track shall we?

[Shiro]

Sigh, funny thing is we both agree ping makes a huge difference, and I never denied so. I just don't know why you pull it out as an argument, as if I am the only person with low ping playing. Basically you're saying I am the only good person with low ping hence my high dps on kfm, and there's nobody else playing another class that has low ping and skill to compare myself with?

 

I ran with many different people and many different classes, all skilled (or at least decent) and geared, and I can say my dps was on par if not higher. My verdict is that KFM dps is among the others and almost all classes are the same, except Destro being weaker (except in short fights), and Fire BM being completely broken (even compared to Lightning BM)

[Suna]

If we compare lightning build honed slash have 5.8x multiplier, 3x with lightning dragon up and flicker have 3x, so it is 11.8x total with lightning buff up. Fire build have no anicancel, but lightning have it. Fire build have 11x multiplier and 12x when fire buff is up.  blade call itself is 24x for lightning and phoenix 12x for fire but each rmb is +0.8x that mean you need to do 15 times rmb to be par with blade call. Without light/fire buff normal damage for lightning is 5.8x  + 3x lightning flicker = 8.8x and for fire flicker is 3.6x that need to use 3 times between 11x rmb so average 5.45x per hit, but cast speed is faster so you can not compare it like this. I do not see lot difference between multipliers but fire build is really simple play and it is really hard fail rotatio with it. Lightning need lot chi management and stance dancing, but it is not bad either.

[Stensatsu]

2 hours ago, Shiro said:

Sigh, funny thing is we both agree ping makes a huge difference, and I never denied so. I just don't know why you pull it out as an argument, as if I am the only person with low ping playing. Basically you're saying I am the only good person with low ping hence my high dps on kfm, and there's nobody else playing another class that has low ping and skill to compare myself with?

 

I ran with many different people and many different classes, all skilled (or at least decent) and geared, and I can say my dps was on par if not higher. My verdict is that KFM dps is among the others and almost all classes are the same, except Destro being weaker (except in short fights), and Fire BM being completely broken (even compared to Lightning BM)

Pretty much this. All classes except Des have pretty equal damage atm. Fire BM is the one outlier from what I have seen, especially since it gives ridiculous aoe at the same time.

[RevivedTera]

Uh huh, you don't even have any clout saying kfms are weak or strong when you are the .0001%. Put a bm with your ping and that ridiculous level of gear and I'm sure everyone defending fire bm will eat those words.

[Sikanda]

 

#Balance

[Kuronee]

11 hours ago, RevivedTera said:

Uh huh, you don't even have any clout saying kfms are weak or strong when you are the .0001%. Put a bm with your ping and that ridiculous level of gear and I'm sure everyone defending fire bm will eat those words.

actually put any class besides destroyer with shiro gear level and ping . Then we will see if the class is high dps or not.  95% of the EU and NA doesnt have 785 AP. Yes though BMs are broken, but they wont admit it though

[Solidarius]

22 hours ago, RevivedTera said:

Uh huh, you don't even have any clout saying kfms are weak or strong when you are the .0001%. Put a bm with your ping and that ridiculous level of gear and I'm sure everyone defending fire bm will eat those words.

KFM are strong regardless of AP/Gear/lvl due to searing palm buff and blue buff. 

The only way a KFM can be weak if he/she has ping issues(aka every class) and has not learned/master the pve rotations of the class(how to stack searing palm), which is not that hard after you get used to it.

11 hours ago, Kuronee said:

actually put any class besides destroyer with shiro gear level and ping . Then we will see if the class is high dps or not.  95% of the EU and NA doesnt have 785 AP. Yes though BMs are broken, but they wont admit it though

IDK, skill lvl and luck has to be taken into account.  id put my monies on Shiro :D

 

I just dont understand why I cant keep aggro vs a BM anymore.

 

If BnS is going to increase their DPS why not lower there Threat....at least then as a KFM I can compete. I play KFM tank I am so used to having aggro that when someone else takes it I forgot how to play /tears

 

p.s. Yo shiro what build do you use to get that 44k? fire/wind? or mix?, teach me your ways master :D

[Shukran]

2 hours ago, Solidarius said:

KFM are strong regardless of AP/Gear/lvl due to searing palm buff and blue buff. 

The only way a KFM can be weak if he/she has ping issues(aka every class) and has not learned/master the pve rotations of the class(how to stack searing palm), which is not that hard after you get used to it.

IDK, skill lvl and luck has to be taken into account.  id put my monies on Shiro :D

 

I just dont understand why I cant keep aggro vs a BM anymore.

 

If BnS is going to increase their DPS why not lower there Threat....at least then as a KFM I can compete. I play KFM tank I am so used to having aggro that when someone else takes it I forgot how to play /tears

 

p.s. Yo shiro what build do you use to get that 44k? fire/wind? or mix?, teach me your ways master :D

KFM has buff that share with teammates.

so basically u can count the bonuses for everyone or dont count bonuses for anyone. fact is that KFM DOES less damage than BM. so when you use threat on a BOSS, both kfm and bm charge aggro on him, but since BM has more dmg than KFM, well...he takes aggro.

 

it is easy to claim something is good when u have godly equip. "oh look kfm is balanced i have true scorpio and overdps teammates lvl 20 in blackram narrows." yeah nice example

 

ps: looking at dps meter, she use cyclone kick. hence wind

[OniOfTheSword]

5 hours ago, Solidarius said:

I just dont understand why I cant keep aggro vs a BM anymore.

BMs who want to generate max aggro will use lightning draw and 5-point strike after using a 150% threat skill. Both these skills generate three times the damage as threat. I know tremor does the same for KFM, but the multiplier is lower.

 

So the aggro that BMs generate from those two skills is huge. Even before the patch, I've been able to compete with a KFM for aggro, by using 5-point strike after cyclone. Similar geared KFMs would initially get aggro because of FS/comet strike spam and being able to start with threat (rmb), but I'd usually steal aggro back when my 5-point hit. Also, not sure how often KFM has downtime on threat buff, but BMs don't have to keep using threat skills as often. One cyclone gives us 30s of threat buff, so after the first cyclone, we're almost never out of threat buff. The patch also gave us more skills to generate the threat buff without having to block.

[Solidarius]

4 hours ago, OniOfTheSword said:

BMs who want to generate max aggro will use lightning draw and 5-point strike after using a 150% threat skill. Both these skills generate three times the damage as threat. I know tremor does the same for KFM, but the multiplier is lower.

 

So the aggro that BMs generate from those two skills is huge. Even before the patch, I've been able to compete with a KFM for aggro, by using 5-point strike after cyclone. Similar geared KFMs would initially get aggro because of FS/comet strike spam and being able to start with threat (rmb), but I'd usually steal aggro back when my 5-point hit. Also, not sure how often KFM has downtime on threat buff, but BMs don't have to keep using threat skills as often. One cyclone gives us 30s of threat buff, so after the first cyclone, we're almost never out of threat buff. The patch also gave us more skills to generate the threat buff without having to block.

before the patch as a KFM I would also initially get aggro from Bm's and then lose it after a bit, especially if they were higher stats/ap and guessing more skilled.

 

but now I am losing aggro to 500's and I am in the  600ap range now theres no way a 500AP bm should be taking aggro from me.

 

Thank you for explain how your threat works, makes sense now, you guys use 300% skills in addition the regular 150% to stack it,

 

KFM threat skills also got buffed btw, i think its 30secs on counter now and 15sec on the rmb 

 

7 hours ago, Shukran said:

KFM has buff that share with teammates.

so basically u can count the bonuses for everyone or dont count bonuses for anyone. fact is that KFM DOES less damage than BM. so when you use threat on a BOSS, both kfm and bm charge aggro on him, but since BM has more dmg than KFM, well...he takes aggro.

 

it is easy to claim something is good when u have godly equip. "oh look kfm is balanced i have true scorpio and overdps teammates lvl 20 in blackram narrows." yeah nice example

 

ps: looking at dps meter, she use cyclone kick. hence wind

Yeah, most of the BM's I have faced in dungs do more damage than me, but there has been some I have beaten.

 

If they are using the lightning build , they only beat me by 1-3k so its not that much of a difference. 

 

If they use fire build, they can compete and beat everyone else so I stand no chance XD

 

btw: I average around 10k dps during my 4man runs using party blue buff, sometimes can jump to 13-15k if I am having a good day plus Wl soulburn helps a lot :D.   

 

For example yesterday during a 4man nexus run, at the last boss I did 15k dps and landed #1 on the dps meter. 

 

my stats: http://bnscoffee.com/character/NA/Flavius%20Solidus

 

I am not OP like shiro or some other kfms but I am here to tell you the KFM are not "weak" if used properly.

 

 

 

 

[Shukran]

8 minutes ago, Solidarius said:

 

 

I am not OP like shiro or some other kfms but I am here to tell you the KFM are not "weak" if used properly.

 

 

 

 

KFM is not weak at all. but it is not DPS  class.  KFM has 3 buffs that makes him op in teams.

[vita]

13 hours ago, OniOfTheSword said:

BMs who want to generate max aggro will use lightning draw and 5-point strike after using a 150% threat skill. Both these skills generate three times the damage as threat. I know tremor does the same for KFM, but the multiplier is lower.

So the aggro that BMs generate from those two skills is huge. Even before the patch, I've been able to compete with a KFM for aggro, by using 5-point strike after cyclone. Similar geared KFMs would initially get aggro because of FS/comet strike spam and being able to start with threat (rmb), but I'd usually steal aggro back when my 5-point hit. Also, not sure how often KFM has downtime on threat buff, but BMs don't have to keep using threat skills as often. One cyclone gives us 30s of threat buff, so after the first cyclone, we're almost never out of threat buff. The patch also gave us more skills to generate the threat buff without having to block.

In essence BM/KFM have similar threat modifier though things change with the current patch. KFM only have 1 skill that generate 300% threat while BM have 2 skills that generate 300% threat, this allows them to keep high threat more often than KFM.

 

Before the current patch equally skill and gear KFM can keep constant agro against an equally skill BM, current patch BM will pull agro. The reason for this is simple for KFM to do their burst damage with high threat generation they required Tremor, Fighting Spirit, Searing Palm at stage 4 and Comet Strike spam, this will gives them high burst, while a BM only require Lightning Draw/5-point strike and Dragon tongue and since both Lightning Draw and 5-point generate 300% threat, they can alternate between both skills to generate high threat while a KFM will need to wait for Tremor CD.

 

IMO this is the biggest mistake they made on BM changes, unless they plan to make BM as the main tank while KFM as off-tank. But then BM also have high damage in current patch, so now we have a defensive tank that does more damage and generate more agro compare to a supposedly offensive tank. Doesn't make much sense does it. This is something they need to fix, balance the damage and threat generation of both BM and KFM also allow BM to spec out of their threat skill like how KFM are able to do that.

 

I agree with Shiro that KFM damage is not low at all, a skill, geared player with decent ping can do high damage as a KFM and this is what we suppose to compare DPS on, we do not say a class have low damage just because some players have high ping and doesn't know how to play their class. 

[OniOfTheSword]

22 hours ago, vita said:

In essence BM/KFM have similar threat modifier though things change with the current patch. KFM only have 1 skill that generate 300% threat while BM have 2 skills that generate 300% threat, this allows them to keep high threat more often than KFM.

 

Before the current patch equally skill and gear KFM can keep constant agro against an equally skill BM, current patch BM will pull agro. The reason for this is simple for KFM to do their burst damage with high threat generation they required Tremor, Fighting Spirit, Searing Palm at stage 4 and Comet Strike spam, this will gives them high burst, while a BM only require Lightning Draw/5-point strike and Dragon tongue and since both Lightning Draw and 5-point generate 300% threat, they can alternate between both skills to generate high threat while a KFM will need to wait for Tremor CD.

 

IMO this is the biggest mistake they made on BM changes, unless they plan to make BM as the main tank while KFM as off-tank. But then BM also have high damage in current patch, so now we have a defensive tank that does more damage and generate more agro compare to a supposedly offensive tank. Doesn't make much sense does it. This is something they need to fix, balance the damage and threat generation of both BM and KFM also allow BM to spec out of their threat skill like how KFM are able to do that.

 

I agree with Shiro that KFM damage is not low at all, a skill, geared player with decent ping can do high damage as a KFM and this is what we suppose to compare DPS on, we do not say a class have low damage just because some players have high ping and doesn't know how to play their class. 

As I mentioned previously in this thread, we got the skill patch out of order. When Korea got the patch, they had legendary soul shields, more amulets, different gear entirely, and the skill changes were balanced around that. It's one of the reasons you see most KR BMs playing lightning, because it is much much more sustainable in terms of chi management, than it is in NA. The reason fire build is so powerful now is because we don't have the gear on which the balances were made. Once we get them, you should see the balance fairly restored.

 

Here's a google doc created by praetor, with a list of the legendary soul shields/amulets that KR have, in case you're curious about how balance is affected with this gear in place.

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1JOQK34BUTR_55XwnbJOk388gjokrtLZFdhi3vIwXjZc/htmlview?sle=true#

[Shadovvv]

47 minutes ago, OniOfTheSword said:

As I mentioned previously in this thread, we got the skill patch out of order.

I've already tried explaining. They're too adamant that "BM is too powerful." >.>