Class discrimination - can we please not do this?

[Dlacik]

On 20. 4. 2016 at 2:17 AM, Shadovvv said:

Speaking of class kits, what excuse do Force Masters have for not throwing out Phantom Grip to rescue downed people or Divine Veil to heal people?

As a FM i usually end up tanking boss. Are you sure you want me to pull near death group member to me when i`m tanking boss?

 

As for divine veil, you are misunderstanding this skill. It`s primary purpose isn`t heailng and it`s healing is bad unless someone is spaming projectiles at you. It`s main purpose is to protect from ranged atacks and using it just to heal is waste.

[SkoobyDoo]

1 hour ago, xCandyBear said:

that's why i said fm and summ shouldn't have such high dps this is truly unbalanced pve/pvp. Sin dps should be meaningly higher since they can only dps to make class more wanted and usefull, i wouldn't think like that if sins were the only class with the buff but since they don't have unique buff (kfm, warlock) there's no better love for sins main reason i stoped buying premium not gonna pay the game to be kicked from parties. #playforfun

warlock  buff have nothing to do with sin buff.only kfm have same buff as you and you do alot more dps then kfm.

fm is also dps only class.asking to nerf them so you can feel stronger make no sense at all.as for summoners they are really good dps class atm  simple because we have unlock all dps hm skills.

also as i said before having  random assasin in your group is very high risk since the class is not faceroll most of sins are terrible.even if they buff your dmg, bad sins will still do less then bad sum/fm.

[Shadovvv]

 

A class like force master does their job well by being a support dps with safe damage/ice stealthe/divine veil/grab saves/survivability from kiting and tanking if need be at minimal cost.

When compared to let's say a sin who has no real CC contribution, but has sleath saves by removing himself from the battle. They also have close to no survival or tanking ability. They offer party stealth for trash mob skipping or spec into smoke bomb. So a sin does below average at his job if he has a stationary target for damage +blue buff.

Okay first off, when do FMs ever tank? They kite, they run the boss around the area, that's completely different from tanking.

 

Second, don't falsely claim that sins have no CC contribution, no survival or tanking. We have double Stuns and Daze/Knockdowns, and we have up to 6 iframes in Q, E, SS, X, C, and V as well as being able to iframe all 8 of Yeti's ice cruxes.

 

Our kit is identical to what a Force Master has, plus blue buff plus boss grab. An assassin overall contributes more to a party than a Force Master would do.

9 hours ago, Dlacik said:

As a FM i usually end up tanking boss. Are you sure you want me to pull near death group member to me when i`m tanking boss?

As for divine veil, you are misunderstanding this skill. It`s primary purpose isn`t heailng and it`s healing is bad unless someone is spaming projectiles at you. It`s main purpose is to protect from ranged atacks and using it just to heal is waste.

Are you bursting the boss or kiting the boss to the point where tanks can't keep up damage/aggro? Is the damage stat difference between you and the tank a significant amount? Or do your tank companions simply do a bad job?

 

Currently no boss, not even Frozen Lair, Yura, and Yeti, have any threatening projectile volleys and even if they do they can easily be normal blocked or prevented in the first place. Assassin's Smokescreen's primary application is the same as Divine Veil, but I throw it out anyway because it has chi regeneration and health recovery. I don't see why Force Master's don't throw out a healing bubble when there's no projectile to patiently negate to begin with.

 

8 hours ago, SkoobyDoo said:

also as i said before having  random assasin in your group is very high risk since the class is not faceroll most of sins are terrible.even if they buff your dmg, bad sins will still do less then bad sum/fm.

Now isn't that just discriminating to say "random assassin = 99% chance of minimal contribution"?

[Dlacik]

7 hours ago, Shadovvv said:

Are you bursting the boss or kiting the boss to the point where tanks can't keep up damage/aggro? Is the damage stat difference between you and the tank a significant amount? Or do your tank companions simply do a bad job?

 

Currently no boss, not even Frozen Lair, Yura, and Yeti, have any threatening projectile volleys and even if they do they can easily be normal blocked or prevented in the first place. Assassin's Smokescreen's primary application is the same as Divine Veil, but I throw it out anyway because it has chi regeneration and health recovery. I don't see why Force Master's don't throw out a healing bubble when there's no projectile to patiently negate to begin with.

Sadly we don`t have a BM/KFM in the group that i run current dungeons with. I wasn`t complaining that i need to tank. I've just pointed out the situation when you don`t want to be pull to FM when you are near death. Actualy i think it`s easier for me to kite bosses in current epic dungeons than for sin/bd/destro to tank them. That`s becaues all i need to do is watch my distance from boss to get away from his attack but not let him jump around like crazy.

As for DV - it heals over 15s in small area, do you really want to stay for 15s at same spot to get 15% healed? I would rather pop potion and keep mobile, because by standing at same spot you can easily lose more hp than you gain from DV heal.

[xCandyBear]

11 hours ago, SkoobyDoo said:

warlock  buff have nothing to do with sin buff.only kfm have same buff as you and you do alot more dps then kfm.

fm is also dps only class.asking to nerf them so you can feel stronger make no sense at all.as for summoners they are really good dps class atm  simple because we have unlock all dps hm skills.

also as i said before having  random assasin in your group is very high risk since the class is not faceroll most of sins are terrible.even if they buff your dmg, bad sins will still do less then bad sum/fm.

i'm not really saying they should be nerfed i don't care for other classes to be honest i just think sin class should be fixed that buff is just like a little passport "ok he has a buff at least so well.."

but what's the point of existing a class that theoretically it's the highest single target dps but in the practice you keep hearing sins dmg weak can't compete with fm or summoner or even warlock. If sins were made to be pure dps class make it as that or it will be forever unwanted and i'm not talking about the noobs, good sins are still underated compared to a fm or whatever. A bad sin is the worse but a good sin is not the best...my point is ppl should notice when a sin is doing work that sadly never happens and you can't blame all players are trash, something not right and should be fixed.

But of course gms/devs more worried about releasing more pay2win content and new classes instead of fixing the main ones, ban hackers and fix other things.

 

I'm not asking to turn sins into the best class of the game just make it useful in their main purpose that is carrying the dps of a party , fm's are dps class and you don't see them getting kicked or being quoted as trash class/players.

[VirtueXOA]

didn't read the 7 page of this topic , but to sum up my point a view :

 

FM have good , constent DpS , maybe simple but good. On yeti they allow you to do the full dps strat, and can save party many times. On necro they can cancel 3 aoe. The fact is ranged have less zone to dodge , so they can dps freely. And FM have nearly no cast so they can kite + dps.

 

Summ: Heal party , easy rez , mass Iframe and alors of personal Iframe , still easy to play and great dps.

 

Wl : Buff , thats all , buff.

 

Sin/Kfm : Buff

 

Bm/kfm : tank

 

I'm not talking about BD and destro cause atm i feel like they have no "unique" advantage.

 

And thats why ppl ask for specific class in party. 

 

I've explained that ranged classes have safer dps than melee and that what's make them strong. that's why i'm doing necro faster with 3FM+Sin than a regular group.

Thats why ppl ask for FM alot.

[Shadovvv]

1 hour ago, Dlacik said:

As for DV - it heals over 15s in small area, do you really want to stay for 15s at same spot to get 15% healed? I would rather pop potion and keep mobile, because by standing at same spot you can easily lose more hp than you gain from DV heal.

Any sort of healing is still useful regardless, even if its just a few seconds. Besides, a good tank usually keeps the boss in place and so they don't usually move around a lot unless its Poharan or Chuchu.

23 minutes ago, VirtueXOA said:

FM have good , constent DpS , maybe simple but good. On yeti they allow you to do the full dps strat, and can save party many times. On necro they can cancel 3 aoe. The fact is ranged have less zone to dodge , so they can dps freely. And FM have nearly no cast so they can kite + dps.

Summ: Heal party , easy rez , mass Iframe and alors of personal Iframe , still easy to play and great dps.

Wl : Buff , thats all , buff.

Sin/Kfm : Buff

Bm/kfm : tank

I'm not talking about BD and destro cause atm i feel like they have no "unique" advantage.

 

You seem to be largely underestimating the value of other classes:

• Sin: Stealth party to bypass big time wasting mobs, anti-projectile shield, 6 self iframes, 3 party iframes, grab, downed party rescue with gigantic range, buff, 1st highest DPS surpassing FMs by a significant amount.
• FM: Downed party rescue, anti-projectile shield, 5sec long party iframe (doesn't work against Yeti's slam if anyone's frozen, by the way), 2nd highest DPS.
• Sum: Cat backup tank, party heals, anti-projectile shield, downed party shield, downed party cat rescue, 3rd highest DPS tied with Destroyer
• BM: 3 party iframes on block.
• KFM: Grapple if two Fighting Spirit buffs are already available.
• Dest: Grab w/ crit buff and focus regen, downed party shield, downed party rescue, 3rd highest DPS tied with Summoner
• BD: Grab, some party iframes.

Sure, FMs and Sums are good, but so are everyone else. A good Assassin can literally replace a Force Master's role.

 

Also, FM kiting is not an advantage because it screws any melee class over including the tank.

[xCandyBear]

30 minutes ago, VirtueXOA said:

didn't read the 7 page of this topic , but to sum up my point a view :

 

FM have good , constent DpS , maybe simple but good. On yeti they allow you to do the full dps strat, and can save party many times. On necro they can cancel 3 aoe. The fact is ranged have less zone to dodge , so they can dps freely. And FM have nearly no cast so they can kite + dps.

 

Summ: Heal party , easy rez , mass Iframe and alors of personal Iframe , still easy to play and great dps.

 

Wl : Buff , thats all , buff.

 

Sin/Kfm : Buff

 

Bm/kfm : tank

 

I'm not talking about BD and destro cause atm i feel like they have no "unique" advantage.

 

And thats why ppl ask for specific class in party. 

 

I've explained that ranged classes have safer dps than melee and that what's make them strong. that's why i'm doing necro faster with 3FM+Sin than a regular group.

Thats why ppl ask for FM alot.

overall all classes seems quite balanced like kfm and bm can be awesome tanks that's why their dps is according to that, same for destroyers and bd with their cc'ing skills truly usefull and their dps is according to that , warlocks are dps class and their dps seems fine and super good with the buff. But why the f**** summoners has such high dps according to their strongest survival/support skills and fm's making all melee classes unwanted?

fm and summoners trully overpowered and sins underpowered next to all melee classes compared to these 2 ranged classes. End of the day you will only see parties of 2 fm's and 2 summoners or 3 fms and 1 summ or 3 summ and 1 fm for 4 man dungeons other classes will be the trash ones doing 6man. 

And honestly as the game is if my main was a fm or summ i wouldn't give a cent for other classes as well...so fiiiiiiiiiiixxx this!!!!!!! it's not players fault but game play is totally unbalanced. 

 

and i'm sick of reading other sin's posts trying to show off how godly the class is when in reality who gives a f*** about the stealth cloud only useful to skip trash mobs and mostly sins are accepted in parties to go solo the mini bosses that everyone doesn't care and ofc for the buff that's the reality my friends. 

[VirtueXOA]

 

15 minutes ago, Shadovvv said:

Any sort of healing is still useful regardless, even if its just a few seconds. Besides, a good tank usually keeps the boss in place and so they don't usually move around a lot unless its Poharan or Chuchu.

You seem to be largely underestimating the value of other classes:

• Sin: Stealth party to bypass big time wasting mobs, anti-projectile shield, 6 self iframes, 3 party iframes, grab, downed party rescue with gigantic range, buff, 1st highest DPS surpassing FMs by a significant amount.
• FM: Downed party rescue, anti-projectile shield, 5sec long party iframe (doesn't work against Yeti's slam if anyone's frozen, by the way), 2nd highest DPS.
• Sum: Cat backup tank, party heals, anti-projectile shield, downed party shield, downed party cat rescue, 3rd highest DPS tied with Destroyer
• BM: 3 party iframes on block.
• KFM: Grapple if two Fighting Spirit buffs are already available.
• Dest: Grab w/ crit buff and focus regen, downed party shield, downed party rescue, 3rd highest DPS tied with Summoner
• BD: Grab, some party iframes.

Sure, FMs and Sums are good, but so are everyone else. A good Assassin can literally replace a Force Master's role.

 

Also, FM kiting is not an advantage because it screws any melee class over including the tank.

Since sin CAN have way better dps than FMs , they have to dodge AOE , they cant dps while boss jumping ect . so they loose overall dps . 

Plus you name different skill of sins that you can't have at the same time. you cant have all the lotus spec ....

And basicly FM global Ifram are way better than the other one. sin's global Iframe are hard to use , and one of them does not even protect the sin himself.

I'm not saying that the others classes are useless , just that it's easier with these one .

[Shiune]

***

 

SIN is underpowered next to all melee classes compared to those 2 range classes? 

You do know that a SIN does more damage than a summoner PLUS provides an offensive damage buff?

Where is a summoner more needed than a sin - WHERE? A summoner can protect movement cripples which can't dodge shit and heal a bit but what else do they do? 

More damage? no. More offensive support? no. More defensive support? Oh yes - for people which are to stupid to play this game. 

 

Seriously stop speaking of summoners being the holy grail because nobody needs this shit class in their party except some no skill fgts which are to stupid to dodge yeti phases. 

 

[xCandyBear]

9 minutes ago, Shiune said:

***

 

SIN is underpowered next to all melee classes compared to those 2 range classes? 

You do know that a SIN does more damage than a summoner PLUS provides an offensive damage buff?

Where is a summoner more needed than a sin - WHERE? A summoner can protect movement cripples which can't dodge shit and heal a bit but what else do they do? 

More damage? no. More offensive support? no. More defensive support? Oh yes - for people which are to stupid to play this game. 

 

Seriously stop speaking of summoners being the holy grail because nobody needs this shit class in their party except some no skill fgts which are to stupid to dodge yeti phases. 

 

you're just being blind or too egotistical to accept the reality if i really like summoner i would main one i'm just talking about discrimination of the classes here and you know yourself who gets kicked and who not, overall utility summoner and fm win due to unbalanced system. If they had less power but same skills melee classes like sin would be more usefull just saying. And ofc nerfing these two classes would make a lot of players rage quit so a fix on sin class is all my point here and not a nerf. 

[Shiune]

10 minutes ago, xCandyBear said:

you're just being blind or too egotistical to accept the reality if i really like summoner i would main one i'm just talking about discrimination of the classes here and you know yourself who gets kicked and who not, overall utility summoner and fm win due to unbalanced system. If they had less power but same skills melee classes like sin would be more usefull just saying. And ofc nerfing these two classes would make a lot of players rage quit so a fix on sin class is all my point here and not a nerf. 

Blind? *cricket* just learn to fcking play and we would never have this discussion. 

 

Yes we need more skill as assassin vs easymode summoners but once reached this skill level we are simply superior. 

So either you get gud already or you stop playing a difficult class and go with summoner/FM. 

Assassin is no casual class and it will never be - deal with it or reroll simple as that. 

[Shadovvv]

24 minutes ago, VirtueXOA said:

Since sin CAN have way better dps than FMs , they have to dodge AOE , they cant dps while boss jumping ect . so they loose overall dps .

And basicly FM global Ifram are way better than the other one. sin's global Iframe are hard to use , and one of them does not even protect the sin himself.

Q/E animations are roughly less than a second, plus we have F out of SS to get back into melee range, so any DPS loss is quite minimal.

 

FM's global iframe is only advantageous when the boss has multiple attacks (which in the current content doesn't exactly mean much; Slashimi dies very fast with a strong party and Yura has defense buffs from scorpion adds). FM's and Sin's ultimately have the same end result against one threatening attack, EXCEPT FM's doesn't work on Yeti's ground pound when already frozen. Sure Sin's global iframe doesn't cover themselves but they have ~6 personal iframes to cover that so its merely just an added challenge factor.

[xCandyBear]

17 minutes ago, Shiune said:

Blind? *cricket* just learn to fcking play and we would never have this discussion. 

 

Yes we need more skill as assassin vs easymode summoners but once reached this skill level we are simply superior. 

So either you get gud already or you stop playing a difficult class and go with summoner/FM. 

Assassin is no casual class and it will never be - deal with it or reroll simple as that. 

your ego is enough to make you happy but i don't play with ego because it doesn't make my class better and i'm pointing about ppl kicking sins from parties which doesn't happen so often with other classes.

[xCandyBear]

15 minutes ago, Shadovvv said:

Q/E animations are roughly less than a second, plus we have F out of SS to get back into melee range, so any DPS loss is quite minimal.

 

FM's global iframe is only advantageous when the boss has multiple attacks (which in the current content doesn't exactly mean much; Slashimi dies very fast with a strong party and Yura has defense buffs from scorpion adds). FM's and Sin's ultimately have the same end result against one threatening attack, EXCEPT FM's doesn't work on Yeti's ground pound when already frozen. Sure Sin's global iframe doesn't cover themselves but they have ~6 personal iframes to cover that so its merely just an added challenge factor.

once again it's not me saying sins are trash but 90% of the players that play other classes! that's the point of this thread "discrimination"

[Shiune]

6 minutes ago, xCandyBear said:

your ego is enough to make you happy but i don't play with ego because it doesn't make my class better and i'm pointing about ppl kicking sins from parties which doesn't happen so often with other classes.

My ego may be a bit high but i'm just straight out pointing facts. 

Sin is a difficult class and only a few people will ever master it. 

But once mastered it is one of the best and viable classes out there and outshines pretty much very class in terms of dps.

 

The question is if you are willing to be one of those few or continue playing casually. 

Because if you are casual (nothing wrong with it) you will do 1000x better as a summoner, FM or warlock (even a BD and Destroyer have an easier time ad sins). 

 

We don't need any buff and range classes don't need any nerf.

It is you who have to adjust playing with a melee class - being it a difficult as sin or more forgiving melee classes like BD, KFM, BM or destroyers. 

[xCandyBear]

26 minutes ago, Shiune said:

My ego may be a bit high but i'm just straight out pointing facts. 

Sin is a difficult class and only a few people will ever master it. 

But once mastered it is one of the best and viable classes out there and outshines pretty much very class in terms of dps.

 

The question is if you are willing to be one of those few or continue playing casually. 

Because if you are casual (nothing wrong with it) you will do 1000x better as a summoner, FM or warlock (even a BD and Destroyer have an easier time ad sins). 

 

We don't need any buff and range classes don't need any nerf.

It is you who have to adjust playing with a melee class - being it a difficult as sin or more forgiving melee classes like BD, KFM, BM or destroyers. 

dude i have no trouble playing sin and i enjoy myself, the point is, lately only sin players thinks the class is good and mostly come here post showing off threads when in reality sins get kicked from dungeons everyday and get trash talked and you know yourself anyone would pick fm or summoner any time to farm instead of a sin because the godly dmg all sins praising on forums is not really like that, fm and summoners due to their easy playstyle makes their output dmg really over the top so who cares about sins? just the players who play the class and enjoy it but sadly u can't solo new dungeons unless you only pvp all day and do mushins, but i like to farm i love pve and annoys the fk out of me when ppl constantly say my class is useless and "too risky have a sin on my party" even when i play decently. 

And read properly what i've been saying i never did say ranged classes needs a nerf lol but sins clearly need something to turn them a bit special besides that buff wich kfm has as well.

 

[Shiune]

Whatever I leave it. 

 

I explained it to you pretty well - what you are doing with my informations is up to you. 

 

One little sidenote: I NEVER got kicked out of a party EVER. 

The discrimination people are yelling about i never saw. 

And if people explicitly write "No sin" they already have a sin in their group to 90% - that's a fact. 

[xCandyBear]

16 minutes ago, Shiune said:

Whatever I leave it. 

 

I explained it to you pretty well - what you are doing with my informations is up to you. 

 

One little sidenote: I NEVER got kicked out of a party EVER. 

The discrimination people are yelling about i never saw. 

And if people explicitly write "No sin" they already have a sin in their group to 90% - that's a fact. 

as i said before your ego is enough to make you happy but i don't have that so i see the reality as it is, just read the posts above mine and what they say about sins. 

there's ppl here and in game saying "i don't choose sin... too risky have a sin on my party... it's not my favorite class... i only bring sins if they are in my guild otherwise too risky..."

it's not me making up these stuff just fking drop of ur ego and down to the earth. 

[Shirou]

On 2016/4/11 at 10:40 PM, VRock said:

 

can FM double CC the adds in Asura Dungeon?

At least Destro can Knockdown and stun a boss alone xD 

Yes my sir they can double CC

Actually I have no idea wtf I said but, if you mean like doing x2 CCs on mobs like one time  STUN and another a KD, what it matters? If someone can, and ofc they can, do at least 1 CC they help the party with that.

Is hard to run yo way from a dragon to another one meng.

[Lunakitty]

5 minutes ago, Shirou said:

Yes my sir they can double CC

Actually I have no idea wtf I said but, if you mean like doing x2 CCs on mobs like one time  STUN and another a KD, what it matters? If someone can, and ofc they can, do at least 1 CC they help the party with that.

Is hard to run yo way from a dragon to another one meng.

I think here it means double stun alone. For example blade dancers have this on their number 2 skill if you spec it correctly.

 

I think my FM bf said that he has double stun or was it knockdown skill. Dunno about can they do it in Asura as I have no experience of that dungeon nor does he.

[Shirou]

Lunakitty for some reason I cannot quote what you wrote recently coz #forum

Anyways, yes FM do have a skill that applies x2 of the same CC that being 3 speced.

For me as lbm I wouldn't bother to waste points on 2 for stun, since I got myself either x+v combination for daze but meh, or 1+3 for kd which is the most classic one.

[Tsuchiryu]

Pretty sure I already said that FM gets 2 double CC skills if they spec them that way:

On 11/04/2016 at 5:28 PM, Tsuchiryu said:

- Heatwave: Spec Flame Tab (Fire Storm) into either T3F3 (knockdown) or T3F4 (daze). 18 sec. cooldown and 5m AOE radius, making it relatively spammable and effective on multiple enemies, but you gotta accomodate to the time between setting up the skill and activating it to avoid taking damage.

- Glacial Beam: Spec Dragonwhorl into T3F3 for double stun. 36 sec. cooldown and single-target, making it quicker to use in a pinch, but nowhere near as spammable.

 

Technically 3 double CC, but 3rd one is in the same skill (Heatwave), so you'll have to choose. Personally, I'd go with the Daze version because Knockdown is more dangerous for stuff like the final bosses in Labyrinth.

 

It's nice to have these CC sometimes to give more time for the cooldowns on evasives. Makes FM a bit more viable at closer ranges.

[Mistia]

I don't think too hard when I see ppl post for class restriction. I usually think maybe they already have a certain class in pt and looking for diversity. I've seen ppl ask for no WL/FM/SUM before ,so....

 

Same when I was in GW2 LFP, "Zerker warriors only", I just ignore them. Its stupid, but unlikely to ever go away.

[Arisha]

On 4/6/2016 at 6:27 AM, Sobereign said:

sin has highest dps in game, and for ppl who dont believe this, think about their dmg 

Nop. FM has the higtest damage. sin is probabaly second or third.

You probably never played a FM with a good gear. Just take a warlock with you and deal 25-30k damage constantly till soulburn runs out... lol