Class discrimination - can we please not do this?

[Masqava]

I'm seeing it more and more. ''FM/WL/Sum only, we only want ranged classes! 500+ FM/WL only!

I'm alright with the ap restriction, but constantly seeing your class being unwanted yet you add a lot to the table is pretty frustrating.

 

[Eryk]

for me if someone say what classes wannt in pt what he likes, than for me sucha person is just selfish what should never get any pt, and i always block sucha person to know who is selfish to not get in my pt and i say that as sin,kfm,wl, all class welcome in my pt always , and i respect only ppls what thinking like me in that.

[PKaBoo]

I NEVER supported or been part of parties that demands only certain classes to join....

I want have all from all... certain classes I don't even mind have 2-3 of them as long as they know how to play and have decent gears lol

people that asks for CERTAIN classes will either get blocked or I'll write their name down on a "black list" and will ignore their name if they search for pt or if they try make a pt coz people like that are all show but 0 skills imho.

[spongemike]

40 minutes ago, Masqava said:

I'm seeing it more and more. ''FM/WL/Sum only, we only want ranged classes! 500+ FM/WL only!

I'm alright with the ap restriction, but constantly seeing your class being unwanted yet you add a lot to the table is pretty frustrating.

 

Maybe they are looking for a certain class to group with so in case their weapon drops no one will bid against them?

[Masqava]

7 minutes ago, spongemike said:

Maybe they are looking for a certain class to group with so in case their weapon drops no one will bid against them?

I doubt that's the problem in dungeons like Yeti... considering the amount of gold you need to upgrade relatively to the amount of chance your weapon drops.

I've already seen my weapon drop more than 20 times, and people that can pay 1000g for a weapon upgrade can pay 15g for a hongmoon key if they are really that unlucky. Which I highly doubt.

 

In endgame dungeons this is not the case in 99.99% of the cases.

[Formus]

i dont get this class restriction too. Ok maybe in yeti 4man (but i belive even this dg can be done with 4 same classes if everybody know what is going on there) but not in classic 6man dungs

[TsukiNoYume]

I've seen/done the class restriction on occasion, but never to such a rigid extent as only FM/SMN/WL.  I'm not a fan of me doing it either, but let me shed some light as to why I've taken this approach on occasion.

 

As I'm sure we'll all agree, Necro 4 man is extremely easy on boss enrage timers, while the king in Lair 4 can be a little messy on enrage timers can be a bit messy as can the Yeti enrage timer (even if you stun on second jump all 3 times, and have a FM to use tab freeze through x-3 cruxes + group freeze for last 3 cruxes so that your team can dps as long as possible).

 

Obviously, with an experienced group, you can get away with a bit less AP (or perhaps damage would be a better term since not all AP is equal - KFM 500 AP dmg != FM 500 AP dmg).

 

As a KFM, here are two of my group times for lair (albeit back when learning) for king enrage timer.

KFM, SMN, FM, BM group (2 tanks 500+ AP group) - Killed king with 10 seconds left on enrage timer.

KFM, SMN, FM, FM group (1 tank, 500+ AP group) - Killed king with 1 min 40 seconds left on enrage timer.

 

With double tanks, the 500+ AP seemed a bit more necessary than with 1 tank.  In fact, I suspect a 450+ AP group would have had no difficulty with Lair 4 with 1 tank.

 

So this boils down to the same AP requirement elitism problem.

 

Do I

 

1. Reduce the AP requirement because I don't want to be an elitist jerk, but have a class req for a more suitable team?

2. Up the AP requirement, but no class req so I can clear even with all low dps class team?

3. Lower AP requirement and have no class requirement, but have often failing teams but be happy that I'm inclusive of people?

 

This posting is from a 514 AP KFM, with only 20-30 lair (4 man) runs, 10-15 necro (4 man) runs and 8 yeti (4-man) runs, so I have very limited perspective here (I have a relatively small sample set to go by).  It's actually been such a big problem for me (I hate not being inclusive of other tanks, esp when I myself am one and know their pain) that I've strongly considered re-rolling a dps class to mitigate this problem.  

 

I hate having AP or class requirements, but I've had numerous KFM/2BM+ 1BD or something class comps fail in 4 man runs, and I'm trying to find the happy in between.  I'm starting to feel the only way I can release the FM/SMN/WL sort of requirement on my party members is to re-roll to a higher damage class myself.

[Masqava]

12 minutes ago, TsukiNoYume said:

I've seen/done the class restriction on occasion, but never to such a rigid extent as only FM/SMN/WL.  I'm not a fan of me doing it either, but let me shed some light as to why I've taken this approach on occasion.

 

As I'm sure we'll all agree, Necro 4 man is extremely easy on boss enrage timers, while the king in Lair 4 can be a little messy on enrage timers can be a bit messy as can the Yeti enrage timer (even if you stun on second jump all 3 times, and have a FM to use tab freeze through x-3 cruxes + group freeze for last 3 cruxes so that your team can dps as long as possible).

 

Obviously, with an experienced group, you can get away with a bit less AP (or perhaps damage would be a better term since not all AP is equal - KFM 500 AP dmg != FM 500 AP dmg).

 

As a KFM, here are two of my group times for lair (albeit back when learning) for king enrage timer.

KFM, SMN, FM, BM group (2 tanks 500+ AP group) - Killed king with 10 seconds left on enrage timer.

KFM, SMN, FM, FM group (1 tank, 500+ AP group) - Killed king with 1 min 40 seconds left on enrage timer.

 

With double tanks, the 500+ AP seemed a bit more necessary than with 1 tank.  In fact, I suspect a 450+ AP group would have had no difficulty with Lair 4 with 1 tank.

 

So this boils down to the same AP requirement elitism problem.

 

Do I

 

1. Reduce the AP requirement because I don't want to be an elitist jerk, but have a class req for a more suitable team?

2. Up the AP requirement, but no class req so I can clear even with all low dps class team?

3. Lower AP requirement and have no class requirement, but have often failing teams but be happy that I'm inclusive of people?

 

This posting is from a 514 AP KFM, with only 20-30 lair (4 man) runs, 10-15 necro (4 man) runs and 8 yeti (4-man) runs, so I have very limited perspective here (I have a relatively small sample set to go by).  It's actually been such a big problem for me (I hate not being inclusive of other tanks, esp when I myself am one and know their pain) that I've strongly considered re-rolling a dps class to mitigate this problem.  

 

I hate having AP or class requirements, but I've had numerous KFM/2BM+ 1BD or something class comps fail in 4 man runs, and I'm trying to find the happy in between.  I'm starting to feel the only way I can release the FM/SMN/WL sort of requirement on my party members is to re-roll to a higher damage class myself.

Honestly, I've ran Yeti 4-man with a BD, SUM & another DES as a DES myself, the BD and summoner both had 450 AP, the other destroyer 490 and I had 519.

We had about a minute left. Yeti is by no means a hard boss if you know the mechanics. 3 of these classes are sadly often excluded, including me (533 ap now, mastered a lot of tricks such as getting the first miniboss yeti from the pillar by jumping off the pillar) so when I'm looking for teams, getting kicked just for being a destroyer sucks.

[TsukiNoYume]

25 minutes ago, Masqava said:

Honestly, I've ran Yeti 4-man with a BD, SUM & another DES as a DES myself, the BD and summoner both had 450 AP, the other destroyer 490 and I had 519.

We had about a minute left. Yeti is by no means a hard boss if you know the mechanics. 3 of these classes are sadly often excluded, including me (533 ap now, mastered a lot of tricks such as getting the first miniboss yeti from the pillar by jumping off the pillar) so when I'm looking for teams, getting kicked just for being a destroyer sucks.

Agreed, I see no issue with double destroyers, they do fantastic damage, esp with good lmb/rmb ani-cancelling.  It would be silly to kick a destroyer off a team imo.  The runs where I had the most significant issues were the ones with 2-3 BM/KFM out of the 4 players.  I'm certain they're doable with a high enough amount of skill and AP, but they're quite difficult to beat the enrage timer.  The only classes I don't like having a lot of are BM/KFM, which pains me as a KFM.

[Bumlife]

18 hours ago, Masqava said:

I'm seeing it more and more. ''FM/WL/Sum only, we only want ranged classes! 500+ FM/WL only!

I'm alright with the ap restriction, but constantly seeing your class being unwanted yet you add a lot to the table is pretty frustrating.

 

Hmmm. Maybe a Line up balance?
Me and my buds recruit class that we don't have on our permanent party.
The idea is the balance it out and have a harmonious run.
No thoughts of discriminating such.

I love each class.
Smnr - dps, heal, resu, tank
Sin - dps, buff, utility hide
Kfm - dps, buff
WL - Sb, high burst
FM - highest dps, freeze utility
LBD - dps, grip utility
BM - best tank imo
Dest - ani cancel. We compare its dps to FM.

[Lith]

4 minutes ago, Bumlife said:

Hmmm. Maybe a Line up balance?
Me and my buds recruit class that we don't have on our permanent party.
The idea is the balance it out and have a harmonious run.
No thoughts of discriminating such.

I love each class.
Smnr - dps, heal, resu, tank
Sin - dps, buff, utility hide
Kfm - dps, buff
WL - Sb, high burst
FM - highest dps, freeze utility
LBD - dps, grip utility
BM - best tank imo

Telling us you love each class but totally leaving out Destroyer D:

[Masqava]

2 minutes ago, Lith said:

Telling us you love each class but totally leaving out Destroyer D:

I know right #DESRights

[Bumlife]

missed it out. not intentional. my apologies peeps @.@ 

not to patronize it, but I like dest as well with its insane ani cancel comparable imo with FM dps if properly use. 
 

[TofuChicken]

Ive done more then 100 runs in lair already and ~70 of them done with random "LFP" Partys ... only 1 fail run. Just learn ur class if u get better u can carry, if u get better and get better gear u can carry even more. So in fact most of ppl who are looking for "600AP+ and Premium rank 9 minimum" are just low skilled people who dont use the real potential of there classes.

 

P.S. i´ve also used a few manual searched partys at night with longer LFP times and most of them were realy crappy runs with wipes on first trash bosses etx.

 

Ofcourse now its a bit harder to find good groups fast with LFP bcs of high amount of (dont feel offended) casuals hitting max lvl and queing for lvl 50 heros but that doesnt matter bcs if u are rly so elitist u could easy carry 2 or even 3 guys with lower gear in ur group.

 

For the point of classes wanted of not wanted jeah for my progress group we´re looking for good matchups for our own classes but infact each class will come with good abilitys for the group, only Problem is that alot of players just dont know there own skills and abilitys to help there party members.

 

P.S. KfM is so so nice in Party he can come with so much dmg and scare most of average FMs easily or he can tank out a full max geared party while he´s geared on 2 or 3 tears lower ... also BM can do that jobs rly nice too. Just try gameplay with a good tank in ur group ;)

 

And to finish that post ... guys just Stop to set ur own AP as Minimum for ur group, i am just leaving such groups instantly were the Group Leader is looking for e.g. 500AP+ while he self is on 501 with most time not even BiS ... thats just crappy and rly rly nooby ...

[okitaluc]

The only blame here is from NCSoft for the way the game is designed , they favor DPS as the most important element of the game, they favor ranged classes dps wise , people saw the melee classes lack on dps compared to ranged and all the content is easier for ranged leading to more successful runs overall. I think it will get worse as the content gets hard.

[Sobereign]

the best part about how much ppl kick out sin is that sin does the most DPS overall compared to any class (excluding KFM because of buff modifiers bcus kingpin tank)

ppl will argue with you that FM does most DPS but nope

yeah burn debuff, ok

 

but sin does bleed AND poison stacks and can refresh it immediately to always have the constant x5 bleed and x5 poison, which means their DoT will always make them have an overall higher DPS value

but ofc ppl are dumb and don't know that

plus they buff you, hide you, block you from projectiles, and can move your dead body.  also, they can stealth you while you're crawling so you sanic crawl.

 

but theyre one of the most kicked out classes and its funny as balls

[TofuChicken]

25 minutes ago, Sobereign said:

the best part about how much ppl kick out sin is that sin does the most DPS overall compared to any class (excluding KFM because of buff modifiers bcus kingpin tank)

ppl will argue with you that FM does most DPS but nope

yeah burn debuff, ok

 

but sin does bleed AND poison stacks and can refresh it immediately to always have the constant x5 bleed and x5 poison, which means their DoT will always make them have an overall higher DPS value

but ofc ppl are dumb and don't know that

plus they buff you, hide you, block you from projectiles, and can move your dead body.  also, they can stealth you while you're crawling so you sanic crawl.

 

but theyre one of the most kicked out classes and its funny as balls

FM can also move u in chi reg and reason why sin get kicked out so often is bcs there are so many noob sins out there. That fact make it hard for good sins to find groups since in Laby the low skilled sins have showed up too often. Atleast sin doesnt seem to be designed for Pve but i wont say sins are bad for PvE, yeah they can do an awesome PvE dmg.

[Tsunakai]

2 FM 2 Sum is the faster, simplest and cleanest lair run i've done to date. these are the 2 highest dps classes atm, sin being 3rd. Sorry sins, you can spout your abilities all you want, but popular opinion, as well as what we simply see in practice does support your ranting. Take the back seat already, if you hate being excluded so much just stick to arena where u can win with the clock in every game and get diamond.

[Sobereign]

14 hours ago, Tsunakai said:

2 FM 2 Sum is the faster, simplest and cleanest lair run i've done to date. these are the 2 highest dps classes atm, sin being 3rd. Sorry sins, you can spout your abilities all you want, but popular opinion, as well as what we simply see in practice does support your ranting. Take the back seat already, if you hate being excluded so much just stick to arena where u can win with the clock in every game and get diamond.

dude you're dumb as balls LMAO, annnd this is why people think NA is a joke, bcus you kick out the highest dps class because of shit popular opinion. and plus, summoners run more in arena soooo lol ok. rather deal with running sin than a hacker summoner, so idk about u...

 

sin has highest dps in game, and for ppl who dont believe this, think about their dmg 

5 poison stacks on dark strike spam 

not only does sin have a more OP DoT (poison), dark strike instanly creates bleed stacks (so think of BSH robot lacerations), which is 2 DoTs + the constant damage they do in and out of stealth + fighting spirit buff, which an FM can never have.  Therefore, while an FM has burn, burn cannot beat 5 stacks of poison and 5 stacks of bleed.  Wait until sins get lmb and the 3 hm books, bcus sin becomes god of PVE, bcus of their OP evasion and their decoy gives 2 second iframe on every counter and shunpo/backstep and with a lot of other shit to use to survive.  Also, if they stun the mob, sin gets another damage boost, which can make a sin hit up to 30k while spamming F (30k 0.5 sec spam in 2.5s which can be refreshed instantly because of the poison stacks) (which is nearly impossible for an FM or a Summ).

 

I'm not hating or being a ragey brat about other classes out topping or anything, because I've played all equally on KR/JP/TW, and even then it's absolutely known that sin is kingpin of pve, whether or not you like to believe it.  The best lair runs I have are with my perm group, 1 BM (tank)/2 FM/1 Sin, and sin refreshing fighting spirit makes our runs ridiculously fast while FM takes out totems and sin/fm stunning king naga block.  In necro 4-mans, I stealth take out lord pyres at each ward because people will get rekt because of adds.  in yeti I stealth mushrooms to take them out to remove the ice spots.  so the fact that ppl think this is sort of ridiculous 

 

So use your brain before sayin shit like that, because I can assure you, 9/10 I take aggro off of an FM AND a SUMMONER because I out DPS them ten-fold and end up off-tanking the bosses.  but bcus of perm group no need to off-tank for me.  plus sins can always never get aggro (which makes the tank life easy) because of stealth

[Tsunakai]

Yet every sin I encounter ever does peanuts for damage. That's why they get kicked, when enough of them are bad then either the skill cap is beyond the twin towers in height, or the class itself is bad. Indivdual skill damage isn't the only thing to account for with dps. Sure if you have 30ms ping you can output great dps as a sin, but few players actually get that kind of ping, a majority sit far higher. Remember popular opinion because what it is for a reason.

[Rina Lockhart]

Oh look, another shitty dressed up nerf ranged thead by a super Mario bro player. 

[Nutrient]

Probably because of their bad experience with melee classes? Some people have trouble dodging boss mechanics so it's easier to have ranged characters face-roll boss fights.

[Rina Lockhart]

More like a bunch of pissed off ppl just trying to over simplify things and apply 2D game logic to ruin other people's game

[Shiune]

Ok i didn't want to do it at first but it seems that it's time to record my yeti run and show you what a good sin is capable to do. 

 

Summoners outdpsing sins... damn. 

Summoners can even be happy if they land on the 3rd place in the dps chart - that's the ugly truth. 

Because they are not even close to sins. 

 

Gonna record a yeti run in the evening and let you guys shut your mouth once and for all - getting really tired of your shit. 

[KatHead]

 

In cross party chat:

 

Yeti 6 Man - 420 ap ranged / 490 ap melee quick run !

 

Dont suppose anything is wrong with this at all though.