Pay 2 Win Confirmed

[Bartas]

Yday I talked to a guy who bought 600 keys. All he got from Trove gave him a big boost with money, items and XP (he got his char from HM3 to HM9 with XP scrolls) but I think that me, a casual player, will get where he is now in forseeable future. In that aspect it is not P2W at all. Besides, what could he win with all that money wasted on pixels? Will he win in the arena? No. Will he own in owPvP? Doubtful. No one will win with bots/speed hackers there. Will he "win" in dungs? There is no point for him going there anymore! All he has is cool stuff to show off, loads of gold and HM9. Maybe with next patch he will be able to see/finish new content a bit faster/sooner but I bet it will be a lonely journey.

 

Personally, if someone offered me 1000000g I would seriously think if I want to play and enjoy the game or max everything possible and move on to something else. For me playing and earning stuff is the point of MMO not having everything handled on a silver plate. 

[Richard Rahl]

4 minutes ago, Bartas said:

For me playing and earning stuff is the point of MMO not having everything handled on a silver plate. 

well said.

[Hamletswords]

652 AP and 5k crit.  Grats?  You don't need anything close to that to complete the top end content in the game.  It has little effect on PVP (hopefully even less when they allow us to get HM skills with beans soon).

 

I was watching Jaesung's stream earlier and he said that it's definitely p2w in Korea but not in NA/EU.  In Korea, you can spend a year farming a soul or spend 5k bucks on it.  Without it, you're not welcome in the top end content.

 

Since our current content is pretty lenient (rightfully so, the game has only been out a few months), there's no need besides vanity to go above a certain gear range.

 

We get new content soon, but that 652 AP and 5k crit will also be way over requirements for it.

 

It's only p2w if the only reasonable way to access content is through paying.  That's simply not the case for us and hopefully they recognize we don't like p2w in the West and keep it that way.

[Mighty]

 

22 minutes ago, Bartas said:

Yday I talked to a guy who bought 600 keys. All he got from Trove gave him a big boost with money, items and XP (he got his char from HM3 to HM9 with XP scrolls) but I think that me, a casual player, will get where he is now in forseeable future. In that aspect it is not P2W at all. Besides, what could he win with all that money wasted on pixels? Will he win in the arena? No. Will he own in owPvP? Doubtful. No one will win with bots/speed hackers there. Will he "win" in dungs? There is no point for him going there anymore! All he has is cool stuff to show off, loads of gold and HM9. Maybe with next patch he will be able to see/finish new content a bit faster/sooner but I bet it will be a lonely journey.

 

Personally, if someone offered me 1000000g I would seriously think if I want to play and enjoy the game or max everything possible and move on to something else. For me playing and earning stuff is the point of MMO not having everything handled on a silver plate. 

 

Seeing it takes like, 8k to get to the maximum current gear, and mid-core/hardcore player (excluding those who spend hours grinding the 4-man dungeons) makes 20-30g per day, have fun spending an year to get to that point to see you're then 10 patches behind.

 

If the average player gets 1 evolution on 1 item per month (and that's being nice, the average player still can't do Heroics/SSP on a regular schedule), and we have 7 items to evolve and get 2 new evolutions on each one per patch, I'm sorry to say but this is becoming pay to win.

 

 

PS: 650+ AP doesn't matter on open-world PvP? Did you ever play open world PvP? Besides, next week we get 6v6 arena. Guess what? It's not equalized. Having 200 more AP than other people won't matter in PvP? If 2 equally skilled players fight each other, A kills B in 20 hits, B kills A in 2 hits, guess who's gonna win. That's pay to win

 

 

 

11 minutes ago, Hamletswords said:

652 AP and 5k crit.  Grats?  You don't need anything close to that to complete the top end content in the game.  It has little effect on PVP (hopefully even less when they allow us to get HM skills with beans soon).

 

I was watching Jaesung's stream earlier and he said that it's definitely p2w in Korea but not in NA/EU.  In Korea, you can spend a year farming a soul or spend 5k bucks on it.  Without it, you're not welcome in the top end content.

 

Since our current content is pretty lenient (rightfully so, the game has only been out a few months), there's no need besides vanity to go above a certain gear range.

 

We get new content soon, but that 652 AP and 5k crit will also be way over requirements for it.

 

It's only p2w if the only reasonable way to access content is through paying.  That's simply not the case for us and hopefully they recognize we don't like p2w in the West and keep it that way.

 

How is improving your gear to deal more damage vanity, when you're getting a new non-equallized arena next week?

[Enhance]

3 minutes ago, Mighty said:

Seeing it takes like, 8k to get to the maximum current gear, and mid-core/hardcore player (excluding those who spend hours grinding the 4-man dungeons) makes 20-30g per day, have fun spending an year to get to that point to see you're then 10 patches behind.

I'm afraid you're a bit outdated on moneymaking dungeons and dailies. Running 3x 4-man dungeons for daily quest is about 45 minutes in total, and gives you 30g+ already (way more if you get any cool lewts, like 20 darts/ornaments (they drop a lot)/HM skill books). A "mid-core/hardcore" player who can spend another 2 hours doing some Yeti-4 runs could earn anywhere around 100+ gold per day if you sell the darts. You can also buy mats&craft for another ~10g/day.

 

So if you're a super-casual that only logs in to do 3 dailies in 6-man, then yes, your daily income will be around 20-30g. But mid-core/hardcore? If you're getting under 100g/day you're doing something wrong.

[Mighty]

3 minutes ago, Enhance said:

I'm afraid you're a bit outdated on moneymaking dungeons and dailies. Running 3x 4-man dungeons for daily quest is about 45 minutes in total, and gives you 30g+ already (way more if you get any cool lewts, like 20 darts/ornaments (they drop a lot)/HM skill books). A "mid-core/hardcore" player who can spend another 2 hours doing some Yeti-4 runs could earn anywhere around 100+ gold per day if you sell the darts. You can also buy mats&craft for another ~10g/day.

 

So if you're a super-casual that only logs in to do 3 dailies in 6-man, then yes, your daily income will be around 20-30g. But mid-core/hardcore? If you're getting under 100g/day you're doing something wrong.

Are you suggesting the average player does each 4-man dungeon daily?

Do you really believe the average player has True Pirate+True Siren accs? The average right now is around Awakened Siren, and there's no way a group with 4 people on Awakened Siren, with no exp on 4 man dungeons will finish Yeti 4 man

 

EDIT: And btw, I do 4-man dungeons daily, and each run averages 7g for me (clan runs, loot split evenly). That's not over 30g

[Enhance]

2 minutes ago, Mighty said:

Are you suggesting the average player does each 4-man dungeon daily?

Do you really believe the average player has True Pirate+True Siren accs? I'm sorry to say but the average right now is like Awakened Siren, and there's no way a group with 4 people on Awakened Siren, with no exp on 4 man dungeons will finish Yeti 4 man

Excuse me? I was replying to this line.

Quote

 and mid-core/hardcore player (excluding those who spend hours grinding the 4-man dungeons) makes 20-30g per day

What do you mean by "mid-core"/"hardcore" player, if not the one that spends few to several hours a day actually grinding for his gear (and perhaps knowing the mechanics of dungeons and his class)? Those players have true pirate and true siren accs at least, yes. Not to mention Siren (awakened) is more than enough to do 4-man yeti or at least frozen fang.

 

And "no exp on 4 man dungeons" for a "midcore/hardcore" player?

[Bartas]

OK. I tend to agree that the only part of this game where P2W actually may be true will be new 6v6 instance. Solution: not play it at all. Sad but true. If I see a place in game overrun with hackers I simply move on and let them waste time watching NPCs walking around them.

 

4 minutes ago, Mighty said:

If the average player gets 1 evolution on 1 item per month (and that's being nice, the average player still can't do Heroics/SSP on a regular schedule), and we have 7 items to evolve and get 2 new evolutions on each one per patch, I'm sorry to say but this is becoming pay to win.

We must have a different definitions on what average player means. I tend to upgrade 1 item per week if I plan to do so or feel it is neccessary and believe me I have a day job, family and, on top of that, crappy, potato computer. Look at my gear, its far from beinig maxed and I have no problems at all doing any content currently in game including SSP. Well, SSP is killing my comp but that's my problem. Yoy say 1 year to casually earn that much? I don't think so. So far I dropped/crafted everything I needed. My plan is to get to Breeze weapon within 2 weeks from now and at the moment of writing this post I have like 20g and almost no materials needed for it.

 

Again, all I can do is pity those ppl who spend monthly earnings on pixels only to wave their e-peens. I'd rather buy/upgrade my comp to have an enjoyable gaming experience. 

[Mighty]

1 minute ago, Enhance said:

Excuse me? I was replying to this line.

What do you mean by "mid-core"/"hardcore" player, if not the one that spends few to several hours a day actually grinding for his gear? Those players have true pirate and true siren accs at least, yes. Not to mention Siren (awakened) is more than enough to do 4-man yeti or at least frozen fang.

 

And "no exp on 4 man dungeons" for a "midcore/hardcore" player?

Mid-Core players are players who play an hour, maybe two per day. The 10+ people in that situation that I know about aren't running 4-man dungeons, SSP is hard enough for them.

3 minutes ago, Bartas said:

OK. I tend to agree that the only part of this game where P2W actually may be true will be new 6v6 instance. Solution: not play it at all. Sad but true. If I see a place in game overrun with hackers I simply move on and let them waste time watching NPCs walking around them.

 

We must have a different definitions on what average player means. I tend to upgrade 1 item per week if I plan to do so or feel it is neccessary and believe me I have a day job, family and, on top of that, crappy, potato computer. Look at my gear, its far from beinig maxed and I have no problems at all doing any content currently in game including SSP. Well, SSP is killing my comp but that's my problem. Yoy say 1 year to casually earn that much? I don't think so. So far I dropped/crafted everything I needed. My plan is to get to Breeze weapon within 2 weeks from now and at the moment of writing this post I have like 20g and almost no materials needed for it.

 

Again, all I can do is pity those ppl who spend monthly earnings on pixels only to wave their e-peens. I'd rather buy/upgrade my comp to have an enjoyable gaming experience. 

 

How is a game "partially" P2W? Or you can play the entire for free or you can't, if you're locked out of part of the content it's pay to win

 

The average player is a casual player. There are more casual players in the game than hardcore players

[Bartas]

2 minutes ago, Mighty said:

Mid-Core players are players who play an hour, maybe two per day. The 10+ people in that situation that I know about aren't running 4-man dungeons, SSP is hard enough for them.

I play an hour or 2 in weekdays and believe me I make more like 40g+ in that time but that's not the point here. You don't have to BUY everyting in this game. Stuff drops here and there you know so instead of selling everything on the market you can just save up stuff. Other thing is that your guild can help you greately.

[Enhance]

8 minutes ago, Mighty said:

Mid-Core players are players who play an hour, maybe two per day. The 10+ people in that situation that I know about aren't running 4-man dungeons, SSP is hard enough for them.

I didn't think you can qualify for "mid-core" if you only play an hour a day. The 10+ people in that situation that you know are likely not doing it because they aren't aware they can do it. (Ran 4-man fang with 3 people on true profane, after a few failures and learning the bosses it's smooth sailing). SSP is difficult for entirely different reasons (dumbass weapons, lags all day, melee outmatch)

 

It's also worth mentioning that the power difference between your weapon and accessories going Siren to Pirate (or even Scorpio) is not as much as difference between you changing bloodshade soul shield to enchanted crit yeti shield (10g for cheap version / 80g for maxed). Moreover, I believe the current BiS necklace and bracelet to be the Python ones that drop in 6-man dungeon and require virtually no money to get - and you don't even need to bother upgrading yours. Scorpio belt can be obtained in 6-man Necropolis and is satisfactory for next patch.

 

[Mighty]

Just now, Bartas said:

I play an hour or 2 in weekdays and believe me I make more like 40g+ in that time but that's not the point here. You don't have to BUY everyting in this game. Stuff drops here and there you know so instead of selling everything on the market you can just save up stuff. Other thing is that your guild can help you greately.

 

Btw, I replied your post, but it edited my previous one.

If you don't buy you can't play the game in full because you'll lose most of the time. You can't open world PvP/6v6. How does that not pay to win?

 

And it might just be me, but suggesting the system isn't broken because your clan can do the work for you isn't my idea of a non-pay to win game.

 

 

 

The thing is, they promised that wouldn't make this game pay to win. They removed legendary weapons because of it. Now no one who doesn't pay can't reach maximum gear before a new patch, and new arena isn't equallized. And they added cash shop RNG boxes that give materials to upgrade gear. That's the problem

2 minutes ago, Enhance said:

I didn't think you can qualify for "mid-core" if you only play an hour a day. The 10+ people in that situation that you know are likely not doing it because they aren't aware they can do it. (Ran 4-man fang with 3 people on true profane, after a few failures and learning the bosses it's smooth sailing). SSP is difficult for entirely different reasons (dumbass weapons, lags all day, melee outmatch)

 

It's also worth mentioning that the power difference between your weapon and accessories going Siren to Pirate (or even Scorpio) is not as much as difference between you changing bloodshade soul shield to enchanted crit yeti shield (10g for cheap version / 80g for maxed). Moreover, I believe the current BiS necklace and bracelet to be the Python ones that drop in 6-man dungeon and require virtually no money to get - and you don't even need to bother upgrading yours. Scorpio belt can be obtained in 6-man Necropolis and is satisfactory for next patch.

 

 

I cherish your attitude towards those people in Profane, but do you think most random pug members, seeing he got grouped up with 3 players in Profane without much experience, would take their time to explain them the dungeon step by step?

[Bartas]

But, but that's the whole the point of playing MMOs!!! Waste time. 

 

In general, I despise all forms of P2W, don't get me wrong, tho I strongly believe that ppl who spend A LOT of real money just to get ahead of everyone else should be pitied not envied. If  I want to feel mighty and all powerful I just play some single player games with cheat codes.

 

I am on your side with all that. Putting RNG boxes with extra stuff is a "smart" way of milking player base. Maybe it is a sign that B&S might die soon and NCSoft wants to pull as much as they can while they can. Dunno. I already gave up on some content because of hackers and bots but I still try to enjoy the game and not treat it as a second job. For me this game is first and foremost a place to socialise with my friends and guildies. Any competition is between us and it is without resorting to cheats and VISAs.

[Mighty]

2 minutes ago, Bartas said:

But, but that's the whole the point of playing MMOs!!! Waste time. 

 

In general, I despise all forms of P2W, don't get me wrong, tho I strongly believe that ppl who spend A LOT of real money just to get ahead of everyone else should be pitied not envied. If  I want to feel mighty and all powerful I just play some single player games with cheat codes.

 

I am on your side with all that. Putting RNG boxes with extra stuff is a "smart" way of milking player base. Maybe it is a sign that B&S might die soon and NCSoft wants to pull as much as they can while they can. Dunno. I already gave up on some content because of hackers and bots but I still try to enjoy the game and not treat it as a second job. For me this game is first and foremost a place to socialise with my friends and guildies. Any competition is between us and it is without resorting to cheats and VISAs.

Oh, and btw, besides promising many times up until now this game wasn't going to be pay to win, they also promised on release they wouldn't release RNG boxes.

Trove is currently the 2nd or 3rd RNG box we got.

I do enjoy playing the game, I do it mostly because I like Arena and it's mostly equallized (HM levels and skills are still a big middle finger pointed at the arena players).

 

Still, I can't help but feel NCSoft are slowly killing the game themselves

 

[Malph]

OH guys 460 ap is maybe now ok for doing all dungeons daily etc but we even dont have every dungeons open i played on other versions of game and i can tell you this there is so much p2w in this event for example AP + 2 Crit gem wich is prety much must have in pve and its OP in 6v6 its obtainable only from this event no other to get it . Next after we get next update wich is in 9 days so i wanna see 460-480ap 50% crit chance 110 % ACC people who wanna join this dung 4 man haha no way you will see what happend people start cry more cause 5% of population here have prepared gear for next update and future updates and other 95% are stuck with daily or 6 man wich is very no loot oriented. Then dont say this event is not p2w it is and it will be we cant do nothing with that NCsoft need money they cant get them now from pvp tournaments etc so they make this event with 100+ crap things and maybe after tons of keys something what is worth. Personaly every f2p game have this decisions from Devs . And every F2p game is grind grind grind to be geared so if you play 1-3h per day dont cry here and start farming mats and gold or go play pay 2 play game where you dont care about p2w events .

 

PS : i wanna see what items you can buy for new currency from 6v6 . More cry comes when you see 6 summoners againts you .....

[Enhance]

18 minutes ago, Mighty said:

I cherish your attitude towards those people in Profane, but do you think most random pug members, seeing he got grouped up with 3 players in Profane without much experience, would take their time to explain them the dungeon step by step?

Then again, wouldn't it make sense for people with lower gear to gather up and form/join a clan instead of hoping to get a carrying PUG? Of course it'll be harder if you leave yourself to the mercy of more experienced, more geared people.

 

I believe that when you're running the dungeon for the first time - especially if everyone in your party is a first-timer - it doesn't need to be successful. It probably won't.

And it's probably different for everyone, but personally I love those moments more than anything - when you don't know the dungeon in-and-out, you do collective trial & failure, adjust builds, maybe google for guides (in worst case I: ). It feels like a lazy way out for me to say "I don't have enough gear" rather than "my rotation is suboptimal" or "we're not utilizing a dungeon mechanic". And then you finally get it, and it's the best feeling ever. You celebrate your loots, no matter how crappy, and go again - this time finishing in less attempts.

 

I believe that 6 people with True Profane and some bloodshade/lab shield are enough to do 6-man Yeti or 4-man Fang/Necropolis. And 4 people with awakened siren and yeti soulshield are enough to do 4-man Yeti. But there's a collective opinion stating otherwise, so it may be hard to find a PUG with sub-par gear (isn't it always?) but finding likeminded people or a helpful clan shouldn't be that hard. 

[Mighty]

9 minutes ago, Enhance said:

Then again, wouldn't it make sense for people with lower gear to gather up and form/join a clan instead of hoping to get a carrying PUG? Of course it'll be harder if you leave yourself to the mercy of more experienced, more geared people.

 

I believe that when you're running the dungeon for the first time - especially if everyone in your party is a first-timer - it doesn't need to be successful. It probably won't.

And it's probably different for everyone, but personally I love those moments more than anything - when you don't know the dungeon in-and-out, you do collective trial & failure, adjust builds, maybe google for guides (in worst case I: ). It feels like a lazy way out for me to say "I don't have enough gear" rather than "my rotation is suboptimal" or "we're not utilizing a dungeon mechanic". And then you finally get it, and it's the best feeling ever. You celebrate your loots, no matter how crappy, and go again - this time finishing in less attempts.

 

I believe that 6 people with True Profane and some bloodshade/lab shield are enough to do 6-man Yeti or 4-man Fang/Necropolis. And 4 people with awakened siren and yeti soulshield are enough to do 4-man Yeti. It may be hard to find a PUG with sub-par gear (isn't it always?) but finding likeminded people or a helpful clan shouldn't be that hard.

 

But we're talking about people who play 1, maybe 2 hours per day on some of the days. What if it takes them longer than 1h to learn all the dungeon mechanics? If a players logs in, play for an hour, keeps dying and makes 0 progress, he most likely won't do the same next day.

If he gets 2g in the end, he'll probably think "Ye, I'm not spending all my play time on this again to get 2 gold"

 

The thing with this game is that it's too "top-heavy". Players with gear find the dungeons a walk in the park, make 200g per day, and say the game is fine. But NCSoft saying to every casual/low-core player "we don't care about you" is not something that keeps games floating in the long-term.

 

PS: What I mean with my last sentence is "We'll give bosses more HP than on other regions, reduce your soulshield HP, and reduce the time beetween patches so you don't have time to learn bosses mechanics properly. Then we'll put the materials you need in RNG boxes, so you buy them or won't be able to do new content." Whales/Hardcore players are fine with that. The rest? I know I'm not

[Balefire]

Oh look another thread where someone thinks they have made a point. Until you can purchase items that give you a permanent advantage over others from the cash shop that are unavailable in game through grinding then it is not pay to win. Winning implies end game. As of yet we are not there. Someone who blows cash may get there faster but you can still get there without ever spending a dime. And since this isnt a racing game.... getting there first means nothing at all. 

[Zuf]

1 minute ago, Balefire said:

Oh look another thread where someone thinks they have made a point. Until you can purchase items that give you a permanent advantage over others from the cash shop that are unavailable in game through grinding then it is not pay to win. Winning implies end game. As of yet we are not there. Someone who blows cash may get there faster but you can still get there without ever spending a dime. And since this isnt a racing game.... getting there first means nothing at all. 

Oh look, another guy who doesn't understand what "P2W" means.

[Brainy]

It's a fact that PvE progress can be bought with real money. I don't know where the line between P2Win and P2Progress is, but it's very thin. I don't care about it though because, well... it's PvE ! 

 

The only things worth mentioning are the skill books. Someone getting gold for real money can just buy them out - vs - a non-paying player who has to be extremely lucky for them to drop or have to grind for a pretty substantial amount of time to be able to buy them directly. I had a few arena matches where the HM skill made the difference.

 

As long as they don't go further with the "RNG boxes" and keep them only on special events, I think we'll be fine.

[ThePrelate]

So, you're telling me there will be even more people competing with high AP and a ton of damage with me over who gets the reward in SSP and GHS? Nice! And good job on NCSoft! Tell me, when do we get a new expansion?

[Lukka]

You know while 'we're' arguing whether or not this game has become p2w or not, NCwest is just grinning of the stupidity of someone spending real money on a bait RNG system. I really dont care if you spend money on this game or not, its YOUR money, you can do with it what you want. I would just question your priorities and logic for giving money to a company that doesn't listen to or care about their user base.

[Dad]

Jae (kr champ) stated pve will be P2W which is why a lot of people backed away from it, we're following KR version am I right? Later on it will be a item you need from the cash shop you'll need and about 100 gold just to upgrade it. (I wonder if he uploaded that video)

[Balefire]

55 minutes ago, Zuf said:

Oh look, another guy who doesn't understand what "P2W" means.

LOL. I have been playing MMO's since their inception. I have played pay to win games. This aint it. However you are entitled to your opinion. 

[AttacKat]

13 hours ago, Tupac Shakur said:

So now that it's been confirmed, since players have spent over 3,500 euro's on NCoins for 7000 keys to get 652 AP, 5k+ crit and crap tons of skill books, gems and gold etc - it's safe to say that all you skeptics were proven wrong after all.

All those who doubted and denied that this game is pay to win, checkmate.

Nah, not P2W, but I do give the credit full credit to stupidity. All we have ATM is entry level L50 weapon at best.

 

Game will be patching more content and gears in the next 2-3 months, where everyone will have easy 650AP, and he could have gotten it all by simply waiting for the patches.