Current class numbers in gold+ disgust me

[Waynedetta]

Summoner has plenty of CC

Best Selfheal ingame

Only class which can break out of stuns with trinket on CD due to cat.

ridiculous dmg if enemys is pinned due to sunflower anicancel and enemy -50% defense

cat acts as meatshield due to *cricket*ed up aiming system

 

What is commonly know to counter him? Yea super burst from 100-0 lol because otherwise he can stall and heal up.

i can tell because i rerolled one.

[Zuidokas]

All those numbers mean are the trends of the population not level of power.

On my destroyer i got like 90/10 chance to win against summoners.

On my BD its like 70/30.

On my SIN its like 60/40 against summoners.

If the class has bad matchups how can it be OP?

 

The problem is that summoner is super easy to learn how to use well, while other classes take some time to get used to. Thats why you see so many summoners around, people are simply not willing to learn harder classes.

 

Later down the road we will see increase of destroyers in rankings cuz people will want to counter summoners, when destroyer becomes most popular there will be an increase in KFM/BM. Thats just how it goes.

[HoleintheWall]

9 minutes ago, Cogbyrn said:

 

I'm surprised you didn't argue "If there were 1 billion summoners in Gold+, but only 1 million in the top 50, then it means only .1% of summoners made it to the top 50.  Does that mean they aren't OP?"  Here:

 

A straw man is a common form of argument and is an informal fallacy based on giving the impression of refuting an opponent's argument, while actually refuting an argument which was not advanced by that opponent.^[1]

The so-called typical "attacking a straw man" argument creates the illusion of having completely refuted or defeated an opponent's proposition by covertly replacing it with a different proposition (i.e., "stand up a straw man") and then to refute or defeat that false argument ("knock down a straw man") instead of the original proposition.

 

That's what you did.

 

Also, I'll go along with your proposition anyway.  Suppose 1 FM is in Gold+, and he made it to Top 50.  What does that say about all the other FM?  How many other FM are attempting to make it into Gold+?  Is he the only guy who cares about the class?  Does it mean no one knows anything about FM because the only time they play one, it's him, and they get no exposure?

 

I don't know what statistics you're bringing to the table, because all you're doing is spouting more raw numbers with no context.

 

The problem with data driven people is that they have a hard time looking into the psychology of a problem.

 

I guess that is why, at my job, we never have our data people go out and do field work which involves interacting with many other people. :P

 

Anyway, the majority of people rather have instant gratification instead of not. Playing these easy classes, which makes it easy to reach top ranks, provides that instant gratification. This is why we are observing huge numbers of these easier classes being played.

 

If a class is innately easier to use no way means it's going to be balanced to the harder to play class, as it is easier to use... That's all there is to it.

 

This is why WoW has a much better possibility of balance as each class is uniquely complicated. The difficulty level of WoW classes are not far and in between like blade and soul classes are. So that game surely has a better chance at achieving balance. Sadly WoW is in such a crap state it too is no where near balanced. Also, they have to deal with 2v2 and 3v3 balancing though which is much more complicated than B&S 1v1 focused balancing.

 

Which pisses me off because how can you screw up the balance so much in a game that focuses on 1v1 pvp!?!? NCSoft had so much damn time to fix their crap and make something big.

 

I'm done with thinking that things will get better at 50 content. They had plenty of time to fix all of their content and network/fps optimization. As many other people are saying and complaining about, NCSoft is making this into a cash grab with little regard for their community. When you ignore the community as they have done in the past, and are doing now, the game will go down hill and player pop will plummet.

 

 

[Dreamer0526]

11 hours ago, Cover said:

What's wrong?....

Wasn't there suppose to be a real buff to BM's and Nerf to DES?... seems like nothing changed? BM will stay weak till 50 patch which god knows when will come

A buff for blade masters lol? wut? 

bms got like 4 updates, 2 of which in the same skill. The same skill that people rarely use in arena lol. 

While everyone else got more than 5, and summoners and force masters got pages of books on their updates.


But Im pretty sure summoners still think theyre "balance". Honestly the nerf over the cat is nothing really relevant to pvp lol.



The numbers doesnt surprise me at all, I played a 3v3 and my team (bm, des, fm) went against 3 summoners. Obviously, not a single moment is 1v1, actually the whole match is 4v1. Love that.



Theres a fine like between annoying OP, and broken OP, and summoners obviously broken op, unlike assassins annoying OP (3/4 of the match, either im blind or his invis. then when I won, he kept complaining about me spamming block lol, wtf am I suppose to do agaisnt an enemy that I cant see?)

[Cogbyrn]

9 minutes ago, HoleintheWall said:

 

The problem with data driven people is that they have a hard time looking into the psychology of a problem.

 

I guess that is why, at my job, we never have our data people go out and do field work which involves interacting with many other people. :P

 

Anyway, the majority of people rather have instant gratification instead of not. Playing these easy classes, which makes it easy to reach top ranks, provides that instant gratification. This is why we are observing huge numbers of these easier classes being played.

 

If a class is innately easier to use no way means it's going to be balanced to the harder to play class, as it is easier to use... That's all there is to it.

 

This is why WoW has a much better possibility of balance as each class is uniquely complicated. The difficulty level of WoW classes are not far and in between like blade and soul classes are. So that game surely has a better chance at achieving balance. Sadly WoW is in such a crap state it too is no where near balanced. Also, they have to deal with 2v2 and 3v3 balancing though which is much more complicated than B&S 1v1 focused balancing.

 

Which pisses me off because how can you screw up the balance so much in a game that focuses on 1v1 pvp!?!? NCSoft had so much damn time to fix their crap and make something big.

 

I'm done with thinking that things will get better at 50 content. They had plenty of time to fix all of their content and network/fps optimization. As many other people are saying and complaining about, NCSoft is making this into a cash grab with little regard for their community. When you ignore the community as they have done in the past, and are doing now, the game will go down hill and player pop will plummet.

 

 

 

You had me, then you lost me.  I do work in a data-driven industry, but I'm also client-facing.  I get paid to look at problems from every angle and, if I find a logical issue, I bring it up and explain its fault.  Even if it is something I suggested that is at fault, and I find a fault, I point it out immediately.

 

The part where you lose me is trying to equate "balance" to "ease of use".  Things happen fast in BnS.  You have to know a lot of things to succeed, and some classes can get away with knowing less about others at the start due to their class being less punishing for making mistakes.  

 

But does that make those classes unbalanced?  Are they OP because new players succeed faster on them?

 

Why in the world is everyone so caught up in getting high rating as quickly as possible, then using that as the measure for a class's strength in this game?  If good, knowledgeable summoners play against good, knowledgeable other classes, and they don't just steamroll, then there's something that the new players are lacking.

 

Is it too much to ask them to pursue that missing piece of knowledge/skill before clamoring for balance changes?  You're still new to the game.  You have relatively little experience, and the experience you do have might be mostly squandered on not paying attention or truly trying to get better.

 

It's like we've entered an age where everyone is an expert at everything and demands they be heard.  If you walk into NASA and demand that they change X, Y, and Z about some new land rover for Mars, but you've only taken Astrophysics 101, are they going to listen to you?  No, they aren't, and rightfully so.  If you spend a couple weeks playing a complex game with a lot to know, don't really learn much of it, then come on the forums and complain that something needs to change, should NCSoft/other people listen to you?  You don't know anything, really, and you haven't put much of an attempt into getting better without foaming at the mouth because of class-matchup injustice.

 

I'm not saying you in particular, HoleintheWall, just the general "you" to everyone who acts like that.  Then we get these sorts of threads that try to show "statistics" or "data" to prove their point, but they don't know anything about statistics or data analysis, so they still look ridiculous.

 

Why isn't it OK to admit that you are frustrated because you're still learning?  Or because you had a rough day, and the competitiveness got to you and made you irritated when you lost?  Those things are OK.  When I started running to train for a race, I'd get frustrated if I ran poorly, or if it was 100 degrees outside and I had to go 5+ miles in the late afternoon because I'm terrible at getting out of bed in the morning, or if I just wanted to sleep in on Saturday but knew I couldn't because I had a goal to reach.  

 

If you care about it though, you muscle through the frustration and continue to work on your goals.  It might be frustrating playing against Summoners as certain classes, or playing against FMs as others.  Does that mean they're OP?  Not necessarily.  Maybe you just have to step up, learn something, practice something, and hit that next height.

 

And if you don't care about it, what are you even doing here posting on the forums or playing the game?

I'm not saying the game is totally balanced.  I'm just saying there are so many people around here claiming the game is unbalanced that have demonstrably no idea what they're talking about.

[HoleintheWall]

23 minutes ago, Cogbyrn said:

 

You had me, then you lost me.  I do work in a data-driven industry, but I'm also client-facing.  I get paid to look at problems from every angle and, if I find a logical issue, I bring it up and explain its fault.  Even if it is something I suggested that is at fault, and I find a fault, I point it out immediately.

 

The part where you lose me is trying to equate "balance" to "ease of use".  Things happen fast in BnS.  You have to know a lot of things to succeed, and some classes can get away with knowing less about others at the start due to their class being less punishing for making mistakes.  

 

But does that make those classes unbalanced?  Are they OP because new players succeed faster on them?

 

Why in the world is everyone so caught up in getting high rating as quickly as possible, then using that as the measure for a class's strength in this game?  If good, knowledgeable summoners play against good, knowledgeable other classes, and they don't just steamroll, then there's something that the new players are lacking.

 

Is it too much to ask them to pursue that missing piece of knowledge/skill before clamoring for balance changes?  You're still new to the game.  You have relatively little experience, and the experience you do have might be mostly squandered on not paying attention or truly trying to get better.

 

It's like we've entered an age where everyone is an expert at everything and demands they be heard.  If you walk into NASA and demand that they change X, Y, and Z about some new land rover for Mars, but you've only taken Astrophysics 101, are they going to listen to you?  No, they aren't, and rightfully so.  If you spend a couple weeks playing a complex game with a lot to know, don't really learn much of it, then come on the forums and complain that something needs to change, should NCSoft/other people listen to you?  You don't know anything, really, and you haven't put much of an attempt into getting better without foaming at the mouth because of class-matchup injustice.

 

I'm not saying you in particular, HoleintheWall, just the general "you" to everyone who acts like that.  Then we get these sorts of threads that try to show "statistics" or "data" to prove their point, but they don't know anything about statistics or data analysis, so they still look ridiculous.

 

Why isn't it OK to admit that you are frustrated because you're still learning?  Or because you had a rough day, and the competitiveness got to you and made you irritated when you lost?  Those things are OK.  When I started running to train for a race, I'd get frustrated if I ran poorly, or if it was 100 degrees outside and I had to go 5+ miles in the late afternoon because I'm terrible at getting out of bed in the morning, or if I just wanted to sleep in on Saturday but knew I couldn't because I had a goal to reach.  

 

If you care about it though, you muscle through the frustration and continue to work on your goals.  It might be frustrating playing against Summoners as certain classes, or playing against FMs as others.  Does that mean they're OP?  Not necessarily.  Maybe you just have to step up, learn something, practice something, and hit that next height.

 

And if you don't care about it, what are you even doing here posting on the forums or playing the game?

I'm not saying the game is totally balanced.  I'm just saying there are so many people around here claiming the game is unbalanced that have demonstrably no idea what they're talking about.

 

Haha sorry to say I actually have extensive knowledge of this game. My blade and soul dojo account was created in 2008, I have been following this game a lot and keept track of the pros watching tons of tourney videos and pvp videos. One thing I hear pros constantly say is that blade dancers and summoners are "cancer" and have an advantage in this game. That advantage being easy to use. That is my point in that regard. Somethin that is easy can never be balanced with something that is hard. 

 

Yes balance relies on a persons skill and knowledge of their class and the other classes, but it also relies on ease of use.

 

Here is an analogy: look at car racing. There are two cars that are in the same class, one car is advanced with all the assistance and gizmos to keep it tight on the road. The other car is older without most of this assisted control. It will be much easier for the more advanced car to continually win races. Yes the older car can defeat the more advanced, but it will be much harder and requires a hell of a lot more control, skill and thought. This is how these easier classes are, they have all these mechanics that equates to the advanced systems of the car that pretty much hand feeds them wins. It's more the car driving than the driver driving. Is this fair/balanced? Nope. This is why you will not see professional races that have cars with technology differences that are far and in between.

 

This is what people are cueing on, and this is something that may lead to this game's down fall. As well as their optimization issues and ping issues which both leads to balancing issues as well. They had years... YEARS to address these issues, but they have not.

 

Also I will say again I do not think any class is OP in this game, but this game is incredibly not balanced.

[a2c]

There's a difference between a balance in terms of strength, and a balance in terms of population.

 

The ease of use does not affect balance in terms of strength. Top-level fighting game players would laugh at you for thinking so.

 

You do not design/balance a professional competitive game around balance in terms of population.

[HoleintheWall]

Oh I should also mention, these frustrations people are feeling right now are very deep and stems from experiences with other games and balancing issues. Not just from the lack of experience in this game or lack of skill.

 

There are many games in the past that have shown clear correlation between not being balanced and having certain classes dominating leaderboards.

 

What Cogbyrn states is very accurate and I agree with most points in his assessment of frustration in blade and soul, but it's definitely more deep seeded than that.

 

I will say my frustration mostly comes from NCSoft business ethics being very similar to that of Trion or EA Games. That being giving us some crap version of the game that they hardly worked on improving from past problems they have experienced, and implementing all this cash grab shit.

 

Well with EA it's more like giving us crap games with very little content and then releasing DLC we have to pay for. Same concept though haha.

 

Seriously though... NCSoft... Damn... Just damn

 

 

[Cogbyrn]

6 minutes ago, HoleintheWall said:

Oh I should also mention, these frustrations people are feeling right now are very deep and stems from experiences with other games and balancing issues. Not just from the lack of experience in this game or lack of skill.

 

There are many games in the past that have shown clear correlation between not being balanced and having certain classes dominating leaderboards.

 

What Cogbyrn states is very accurate and I agree with most points in his assessment of frustration in blade and soul, but it's definitely more deep seeded than that.

 

I will say my frustration mostly comes from NCSoft business ethics being very similar to that of Trion or EA Games. That being giving us some crap version of the game that they hardly worked on improving from past problems they have experienced, and implementing all this cash grab shit.

 

Well with EA it's more like giving us crap games with very little content and then releasing DLC we have to pay for. Same concept though haha.

 

Seriously though... NCSoft... Damn... Just damn

 

 

 

See, I think we just disagree fundamentally.  I think NCSoft's approach to this game is appropriate.  I actually have thoroughly enjoyed having a short period of time with the initial release, then the patch we just received and all of the changes that occurred.  The feeling of needing new skill points and getting them, having some skills revamped to feel better, etc.  I just like the whole experience and don't expect perfection, especially since I know there are those performing at a very high level of all classes.  I know I'm missing something, I know I have something to strive for, and I like knowing there's a road of improvement ahead.

 

That's where I'm coming from anyway.

 

As far as the cash grab RNG box stuff, they wouldn't put it out there if it didn't sell.  I hate those boxes as well, but since Arena is a haven from gear-based PvP, I feel much less like it's a big deal.

[HoleintheWall]

Oh yeah I agree there, the game is wonderful and I do love that we have so much more content ahead of us! I constantly have something to do and work for.

 

Where I come from though in what I am saying is the competetive aspect of the game. The pvp, the tournaments, and the publicity this game can achieve. There is so much potential, but from what I have seen in many other games, not just MMOs, NCSoft is just throwing it away. If not they already have thrown it away as they already proved they have hardly improved on the game since its release in 2012. Thy already went through all this network/in game optimization and balance issues years ago. Yet the product NA and EU were given are mostly the same. One main big difference I see is that our version is more grindy and has much more emphasis on the profit gains.

 

This release and subsequent updates and accumulating issues just feels to similar to what happened to Tera, Archeage, Lineage. Aion was actually really damn good in its beginning days, but NCSoft screwed that one up too.

 

I know I am being a complete negative nancy debby downer, but NCSoft and release of other KR games have yet to make me feel otherwise.

 

All I have are hopes and dreams of a little boy for an MMORPG making it big in the competetive pvp world, or for it to not drop heinously in player population to a three server game.

 

Sorry people at NCSoft I'm sure you are mostly good people, but your investors and marketing division can all go to hell.

[Drobot]

I want this game to work, but if these issues aren't addressed next patch then i'm probably out. I could stick around but I don't want to if I feel like the community's being ignored. 

[Alumez]

class representation doesn't directly correlate to class strength. if it did that would mean that force masters and assassin's would be 2 of the weakest classes, and they're not. the reason why SM/DS/LBM is so highly represented is because they're easy to get the hang of and can cheese people that don't know what to do against it. KFM/FM/SIN are much harder to make simple plays on, so less people are able to do it correctly, and more people can punish them for it. BM is just lacking some damage atm. I'd like to see all the numbers from silver to diamond.

[Onene]

I guess B&S stands for Bladedancers & Summoners

[Vecejj]

4 hours ago, Onene said:

I guess B&S stands for Bladedancers & Summoners

Atm it stands for Bull and Shit 

 

I'm sure you can guess the second word if it *crickets* it xD

[Zooks]

14 hours ago, Cogbyrn said:

If only data analysis was something they taught better in schools, maybe people would be able to question numbers instead of draw the conclusions they want to draw and use it as the crumbly foundation of their argument.

 

WTF are you even talking about? Summoners have 33% representation and there's seven classes. There's more representation for summoners than there is for Sin, KFM, BM, and FM combined. The obvious conclusion is that Summoners are really *cricket* strong in the current meta. 

[ssolitude]

Quote

WTF are you even talking about? Summoners have 33% representation and there's seven classes. There's more representation for summoners than there is for Sin, KFM, BM, and FM combined. The obvious conclusion is that Summoners are really *cricket* strong in the current meta. 

 

They just require less to do good with, and takes more to do good against.

When both players are good, it just comes down to who is better.

 

edit: Quote feature messing my text up.

[Zooks]

7 minutes ago, ssolitude said:

 

They just require less to do good with, and takes more to do good against.

When both players are good, it just comes down to who is better.

 

edit: Quote feature messing my text up.

So you're saying that people who play Summoners are better than most players since it all comes down to who is better? Did you completely ignore the amount of them at high rating in comparison to the six other classes? I think there's a bit more to it than player skill.

[Lexter]

I feel with you. But me wining rate is 1/5. And i'am blade cancer. Why? 230 - 350 ping :D. Just for fun.

 

But i agree. From what i see, these top three classes are OP . I shoot in me own ranks.

[ssolitude]

34 minutes ago, Zooks said:

So you're saying that people who play Summoners are better than most players since it all comes down to who is better? Did you completely ignore the amount of them at high rating in comparison to the six other classes? I think there's a bit more to it than player skill.

Most players are not good at pvp right now, it is only a few people at the top ratings right now that are really good at pvp, BELOW that skill level summoners have an easier time.

But once more people reach a high level of skill, a summoner will win or lose based on who is better only.

[Nischana]

Well, i play SM, FM , Destroyer,KFM.

And i must admit the last patch pushed Summoner from strong to a bit op in my optionen.

The thing that makes Summoner seem totaly broken is that you dont need mutch skill to play and its very forgiving, doing dmg is insane easy. So every noob can play it "well" and combined with "the fact that it maybe a bit op" atm its seems just insane if the players are not on a extrem high level.

For me i startet to play FM more this patch and the effort this class takes compare to SM seems so mutch more, even my destroyer seems way harder.

So jea...seems like strong SMs is something we have to dealt with in the level 45 patch.

And even high skilled player like Radeyzz (and KFM is supposed to have a good matchup against SM) have now trubbel dealing with good SMs, thats why i said they seem a bit "op" to me now.

It just feels like most classes just take so mutch more time to learn and play well that only the easy classes like SM, Destroyer, LBM do well atm.

But if you look at guys like madooshi or Bevv or Enol it seems like you can do well with every class.

 

For refernce my "skill level":

Last patch i made it allmost to plat with my level 22 SM and did it with 39 and stopped there, but i felt kinda easy.

I made it to plat with my 40 Destroyer it felt still way harder then my SM.

My KFM managed to hit 1700 with level 25 and wars stuck there even with level 36.

 

And this patch my FM is allmost gold with level 29. 1580 or something.

 

 

[Destinykraze]

On 2/11/2016 at 4:27 PM, StarTailZz said:

Am i the only one who thinks fm is much harder to deal with then summoner and assassin ? I lost every assa game except 2 and i won 60% vs summoners i won 0% vs FM tho xD Maybe im just bad haha. Im playing KFM btw. But maybe its just harder for other classes to deal vs summoners and the Matchup itself is just frustrating and takes long but i dont think they are really "op"

Same here. I think summoners are only a problem for lower tiers. silver and gold. If you check China and korea servers. Summoners no where near the majority of the top tier classes.

I noticed that latency might also play a part. Assassin and BD is dominating the diamond tier though, not that low tiers pvpers have any chance see that. Diamond assassin here.

[voodooblade]

As much as I appreciate you trying to use pure mathematics to shatter their delusions, you know using infallible factual data. However those denying the gap suffer from strong denial. But I will be sure to spam this thread to respond to everyone now, ty.

[AyeeLmao]

I like how BM is at the bottom of the list. Everything in the trailer and release vids were lies. Why do i bother keep playing this game it's stupid. Des, lfm, summs=2-3click to win. If I really wanna play a spam game I'd just go play dragon nest or even league of legends. 

[Zerecas]

'balance' 'esport'

[N3ph1lim]

Ah...

 

Look at my underrepresented BM numbers in PVP.

 

This content we have is soooo balanced right now and that's why they're holding everything that is known as the level 50 contents.