Krical

Summoner overpowered? [Discussion]

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On 2/9/2016 at 7:00 AM, SkyTanFlying said:

I am a summoner and I am having a hard time with assassins since they stealth almost the whole fight.
My only advantage is heal. I can heal, sin can't. I fought twice with an at-par sin and we always end up losing all our HP to critical. 
He just unli stealth and lightning me then bomb and knockdown me to do damage.

Without my heal im dead and the summoner itself is pretty soft.
I am killed twice the onyl difference from those two compare to the others is they focus on me instead of my pet, they never touched my pet.

Yea i Love that. Either youre blind or their invisible.

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No, pretty sure summoners are OP, and exceptionally stronger against Assassins. The summoners losing to Assassins just don't know how to use their abilities yet. Every time I fight a summoner, they use the plant aoe, thorns, or flower and I can never stay stealthed, meanwhile stealth abilities are half the arsenal. The rest relies on fast rush attacks into combos, except the cat is always in the way. Even if i can stun the summoner, there is barely enough time before the cat will come back and knock me off my combo - and Assassins have a harder time setting up combos. Other classes have a single skill that automatically stuns, but Assassins have to go out of their way to stealth or poison before they can use any ability to stun.

 

I'm surprised you haven't said anything about Destroyers, since Assassins can literally never go near them. Kiting and harassing until time runs out seems to be the only effective way to win, which is boring.

 

I'd say it's a rock scissors paper game since Assassin can pretty much wreck Blade masters and Kung fu masters. It's balanced in a way that one class can beat another, but not balanced in a way to beat all classes even if depending on skill.

Edited by SmoothOperratus

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i wouldn't say Summoners are overpowered. i'd say that they're definitely strong.

 

i did see that the OP noted that there was "something around us that knocked him out of stealth"; that's Doom 'n Bloom. however, it won't knock an Assassin out of stealth if you're far enough away from the Summoner.

 

Summoners can knock Assassins out of stealth, but, they only have three abilities that let them do this: Beckon, Sunflower and Thorn Strike.

 

Beckon has a small radius and it always summons the cat behind and to the right of the Summoner. 

 

Sunflower is the good old flower-power that everyone loves. however, it rarely knocks Assassins out of stealth because of the Evasion bonus they get. Thorn Strike is similar.

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26 minutes ago, nvmvoidrays said:

i wouldn't say Summoners are overpowered. i'd say that they're definitely strong.

 

i did see that the OP noted that there was "something around us that knocked him out of stealth"; that's Doom 'n Bloom. however, it won't knock an Assassin out of stealth if you're far enough away from the Summoner.

 

Summoners can knock Assassins out of stealth, but, they only have three abilities that let them do this: Beckon, Sunflower and Thorn Strike.

 

Beckon has a small radius and it always summons the cat behind and to the right of the Summoner. 

 

Sunflower is the good old flower-power that everyone loves. however, it rarely knocks Assassins out of stealth because of the Evasion bonus they get. Thorn Strike is similar.

 

Enjoyed to read a summoner who knows the class more than the average joe.

I´d like to add, that breaking stealth with sunflower or thorns is also a skill-shot. Making it incredibly hard, unless the sin is bad at positioning.

Mainly you use DoomNBloom for breaking stealth vs sin, while wasting the sin escapes with the first attacks. and then let the can pin the Sin down, once you are sure he has no more escapes ready. Spam sunflower while the cat holds the sin down, and get ready for the counter once the sin gets up.

 

Also, I love to break Sin stealth with anklebiter. Nothing more satisfying than seeing the blur of a sin going after my cat, and instantly being punished!

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18 minutes ago, Victorion said:

 

Enjoyed to read a summoner who knows the class more than the average joe.

I´d like to add, that breaking stealth with sunflower or thorns is also a skill-shot. Making it incredibly hard, unless the sin is bad at positioning.

Mainly you use DoomNBloom for breaking stealth vs sin, while wasting the sin escapes with the first attacks. and then let the can pin the Sin down, once you are sure he has no more escapes ready. Spam sunflower while the cat holds the sin down, and get ready for the counter once the sin gets up.

 

Also, I love to break Sin stealth with anklebiter. Nothing more satisfying than seeing the blur of a sin going after my cat, and instantly being punished!

 

there's that, but, Assassins do also get an evasion bonus in stealth, meaning that it makes wasting Thorn Strike or Sunflower's 3-focus cost a high-risk maneuver. honestly, unless the Assassin is just playing badly, i don't find using Sunflower/Thorn Strike to break stealth a great idea. i'd rather wait until they're about to attack me and try to knock 'em out with Beckon.

 

i forgot to mention that Briar Patch/Flying Nettles can also knock an Assassin from stealth as well, but, the Summoner has to be in stealth to use it and it only lands right at their feet. Flying Nettles has to have a target, though, and has pre-requisites.

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On 2/25/2016 at 5:00 AM, nvmvoidrays said:

i wouldn't say Summoners are overpowered. i'd say that they're definitely strong.

 

i did see that the OP noted that there was "something around us that knocked him out of stealth"; that's Doom 'n Bloom. however, it won't knock an Assassin out of stealth if you're far enough away from the Summoner.

 

Summoners can knock Assassins out of stealth, but, they only have three abilities that let them do this: Beckon, Sunflower and Thorn Strike.

 

Beckon has a small radius and it always summons the cat behind and to the right of the Summoner. 

 

Sunflower is the good old flower-power that everyone loves. however, it rarely knocks Assassins out of stealth because of the Evasion bonus they get. Thorn Strike is similar.

You said "only" three abilities to knock out stealth? Do you have any idea how hard it is to meet the conditions to even enter stealth? One ability, we have to be out of combat and able to sprint to do it, the other is we have to be standing behind you already, which never happens, unless we use another ability. The only other viable ways to enter stealth is counter/decoy, or our tab escape. You say only three, well that's more than enough, especially since any AOE does the job.

 

Truth is, Assassin requires too much work to achieve the same goal. If you like the abilities and play style, that's great, since Assassin is so well designed in this game. But honestly, any other class is far more efficient.

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Spin2win   

This class is retarded anyone who thinks they need "skills" to beat this is plain stupid. Remove the *cricket*ing cat = gg.

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3 hours ago, SmoothOperratus said:

You said "only" three abilities to knock out stealth? Do you have any idea how hard it is to meet the conditions to even enter stealth? One ability, we have to be out of combat and able to sprint to do it, the other is we have to be standing behind you already, which never happens, unless we use another ability. The only other viable ways to enter stealth is counter/decoy, or our tab escape. You say only three, well that's more than enough, especially since any AOE does the job.

 

Truth is, Assassin requires too much work to achieve the same goal. If you like the abilities and play style, that's great, since Assassin is so well designed in this game. But honestly, any other class is far more efficient.

 

You´re exaggerating. It´s not that hard to stealth. Hell, every sin I see in the arena is stealthed more than 60% of the time. And like every capable sin I know, solo´s the dungeons with permastealth build.

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5 minutes ago, Victorion said:

 

You´re exaggerating. It´s not that hard to stealth. Hell, every sin I see in the arena is stealthed more than 60% of the time. And like every capable sin I know, solo´s the dungeons with permastealth build.

Stealth in dungeon is very different from arena.

 

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Jinjii   

Ya know, IMO the only way this game would be classed as 'balanced' would be if every single person who played it was at the same skill level.  

 

There are FAR too many q.q threads from pretty much every class crying about how they get their asses handed to them by whatever class they have deemed 'OP'.  Now, are summoners retarded, yes they are. so is every other class in the right hands.  Do they make you work harder to win? Yes, congratulations, that's called a challenge.  This is how most summoners feel about Destroyers and good Blade Dancers.  

 

For Summoner, if you come across a good one you won't be able to kill cat so go after the summoner instead.  Spec yourself so you have plenty of escapes instead of going full retard thinking damage is all you need.  If they're bad and they let you kill the cat, chances are they will panic, spam sunflower, run out of focus and run around crying.  Not to mention, Sunflower is classed as an AOE, therefore it NEVER auto-targets unlike skills like Doom N Bloom and Rumblebees so like, you know...dodge?  

 

To put pressure on them, MAKE THEM use SS and let them waste their Seed Shroud, there you go, they no longer have any escapes.  

 

You also forget that the Summoner has to control the cat to make it do stuff, it has it's basic hitty crappy auto attack but it's the CC's that f.uck people off the most.  Well ya know, I hate Force Masters that stunlock me and freeze me in place.  If they had a pet that did that for them, everyone would be crying about that and yelling at them to nerf it or take it away.  Just because the cat is a seperate entity does not mean it is 2vs1.  Summoner relies on Sunflower for primary damage, Sunflower got nerfed, it's harder to keep focus to do significant burst damage.  The cat pinning you while it scratches your face off doesn't do all that much, it's the pin + Sunflower that's painful but that's the equivalent to the FM freezing you in place and releasing Meteor on your ass.

 

JUST STOP WHINING OMG.

Edited by Jinjii

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Pacma   
1 hour ago, Jinjii said:

Ya know, IMO the only way this game would be classed as 'balanced' would be if every single person who played it was at the same skill level.  

 

There are FAR too many q.q threads from pretty much every class crying about how they get their asses handed to them by whatever class they have deemed 'OP'.  Now, are summoners retarded, yes they are. so is every other class in the right hands.  Do they make you work harder to win? Yes, congratulations, that's called a challenge.  This is how most summoners feel about Destroyers and good Blade Dancers.  

 

For Summoner, if you come across a good one you won't be able to kill cat so go after the summoner instead.  Spec yourself so you have plenty of escapes instead of going full retard thinking damage is all you need.  If they're bad and they let you kill the cat, chances are they will panic, spam sunflower, run out of focus and run around crying.  Not to mention, Sunflower is classed as an AOE, therefore it NEVER auto-targets unlike skills like Doom N Bloom and Rumblebees so like, you know...dodge?  

 

To put pressure on them, MAKE THEM use SS and let them waste their Seed Shroud, there you go, they no longer have any escapes.  

 

You also forget that the Summoner has to control the cat to make it do stuff, it has it's basic hitty crappy auto attack but it's the CC's that f.uck people off the most.  Well ya know, I hate Force Masters that stunlock me and freeze me in place.  If they had a pet that did that for them, everyone would be crying about that and yelling at them to nerf it or take it away.  Just because the cat is a seperate entity does not mean it is 2vs1.  Summoner relies on Sunflower for primary damage, Sunflower got nerfed, it's harder to keep focus to do significant burst damage.  The cat pinning you while it scratches your face off doesn't do all that much, it's the pin + Sunflower that's painful but that's the equivalent to the FM freezing you in place and releasing Meteor on your ass.

 

JUST STOP WHINING OMG.

YES thank you, now if i could only copy and paste into arena chat

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Windy   

I'm a summy......I been kicked by sins quite much ,untill i learnt to take their stealth off .Yet i can't beat KFM,can't stand their permanent stun..the only class i rly fear xD,and the 2nd one its Blade Dancer ..omg they are scary :D

We are not OP class ,actually ,comparing the class with my alts i'd say its pretty squishy class.I guess for now ppls are still learning skills,more the game will advance other classes will have more powerful abilities then summoners.

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3 hours ago, Waynedetta said:

Stealth in dungeon is very different from arena.

 

 

You mean, maintaining stealth. It´s not hard to stealth per se.

No harder than it is for a summoner to constantly escape cc´s with the very few iframes and escapes we have available.

 

In either case, I don´t complain - nor when I get walled up with destroyer spin, unable to do anything but watching my remaining hp just sink to zero. 

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They are beyond OP in arena and honestly even OWPVP too. It is an absolute joke that a ranged class has a pet that can do that much damage in a game that is 75% melee. They should make it if you kill the pet it is a win too. If we are going to jam the 2 v 1 concept down our throat.

 

To be honest with the balance issues, the hacking the bots. I am done with this game for a while. I have 0 faith in ncsoft anymore.

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This kind of theads never get the support it deserves, its gonna get flooded by summoner trolls who are either gonna say and enforce the #1 rule of summoners "summoners are balance, everyone just needs to learn how to play the game", with lack o common sense of the definition of balance. (LoL, balance compared to what? you cant be balance if youre the only one balance), and summoners most common response is making fun of the people who claims summoners are op by stating that "look, I died to this class, clearly this class is OP", which is not the case. For the most part, everyone can distinguish the difference of OP and Annoying (I can). 

And when a level 30 goes into the arena as a summoner and becomes gold before leaving, while every other class has to be close to 40+, theres something wrong with the system. I dont know whats gonna happen once warlock comes out, but it will not change the fact that summoners are OP, and if warlock gets released as OP, then so be it. Theyre both OP.


Dont give us that BS "youre just bad", youre stupid for saying that, and in fact shows complete ignorance, or fear that youll get nerfed, which is highly unlikely considering last majo patch, bms got patched in relation to the present servers. Hench while every single class got plenty of updates, the blade master got 5 lines, which sums up the upgrade of 2 skills.


Be true to youself, summoners you arent gonna get nerfed, just hated more. The only way to balance the summoners now is if they roll in the arena like how they were suppose to prior to level 50 content, "SUMMONERS USE TO SPAWN IN ARENA WITHOUT PET", that variable is the game changer, without the power of the other classes, the summoner is the most strongest class in the arena. The only class that can kill summoners are the bayblades.

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Fyk0   

As an assassin in 1750 elo I stopped playing arena besides dailies because the ladder is infested of summoners and I can pretty much go afk versus them. I'm going to make a warlock and hope they do better vs summoners. 

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1 hour ago, Dreamer0526 said:

Be true to youself, summoners you arent gonna get nerfed, just hated more. The only way to balance the summoners now is if they roll in the arena like how they were suppose to prior to level 50 content, "SUMMONERS USE TO SPAWN IN ARENA WITHOUT PET", that variable is the game changer, without the power of the other classes, the summoner is the most strongest class in the arena. The only class that can kill summoners are the bayblades.

 

they aren't going to get nerfed because they aren't anywhere near as strong on the current KR patches; we're just missing whatever they have. blame ncsoft for starting us at 45 with these awkward-ass balance patches.

 

i'm curious, can you find a video of Summoners not spawning in the arena with a pet? that sounds *cricket*ing terrible. i can't find a single video of that. any 45 videos i find have the Summoner all spawn with their pet in the arena. i did find a video, though, that was a 3v3 match that was that: 3v3, not tag. i'd rather have that, tbh.

4 hours ago, Matangi said:

These trash bullshit, as BM 1850 i cant go plat cuz of these lil cunts. Oh, summoners dnt need their stupid cat they are litteraly able to 1v1 u without it btw.

 

sure, if you just ignore them and let them free-hit you with Sunflowers, repeatedly, while you try and kill the cat.

Edited by nvmvoidrays

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I already said it and i say it again, imo its the pindown which should get nerfed, why?

Usally most classes have 1 escape from grapple.

Pindown works for 5 seconds decreases defense by 50% disables defensive skills and can be used on counter, dazed, stunned and knocked down targets every sunflower crits for 4-5k into pindown. And its not hard to pindown at all with it having only 18seconds cooldown. 5 Seconds of aniycanceling Summoner sunflower spam is just GG.

if you never played any other class then summoner, you cant imagine how much effort and skills it takes for other classes to get someone into 5 seconds "lock" and dealing that *cricket*ton of dmg.

Edited by Waynedetta

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Windy   
5 minutes ago, Waynedetta said:

I already said it and i say it again, imo its the pindown which should get nerfed, why?

Usally most classes have 1 escape from grapple.

Pindown works for 5 seconds decreases defense by 50% disables defensive skills and can be used on counter, dazed, stunned and knocked down targets every sunflower crits for 4-5k into pindown. And its not hard to pindown at all with it having only 18seconds cooldown. 5 Seconds of aniycanceling Summoner sunflower spam is just GG.

if you never played any other class then summoner, you cant imagine how much effort and skills it takes for other classes to get someone into 5 seconds "lock" and dealing that *cricket*ton of dmg.

You forgot the KFM then and the CC imunity that BD have . Go away ,git gud.

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6 minutes ago, Windy said:

You forgot the KFM then and the CC imunity that BD have . Go away ,git gud.

BDs chi recovery is easylie countered and then he got 2 seconds of cc immunity on a 36 seconds cooldown left

BladeDancers at all are countered by sum so easy. They have only 3 options on ranged: Boomerang with chi recovery which is countered by petal storm. Charge on low cd and charge on bigger cd which most likly end in an aircomb both can be outhealed easylie.

KFM block is grappled.

 

Just remove 50% defense reduce and some of the reqierments, maybe to stun and knockdown only and its fine.

 

Edited by Waynedetta

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I'm 1982 in 1v1, 2107 in 3v3 on my Summoner. On my BM I have a hard time breaking 1800 in 1v1 and am a bit over 1900 in 3v3. This is mostly due to European servers being garbage resulting in me having 200+ latency which affects melee far more than ranged, however that doesn't mean Summoner isn't broken.

I've said this in the past and I'll say it again. The Grapple is the problem. People can only escape it once every 36 seconds, unless you're a BD which is also an overpowered class. BMs can spec into breaking it like BDs do but BMs are so garbage against Summoners right now it doesn't matter.

If the Summoner hits you once with the Grapple, which isn't very challenging to do since most classes aren't immune to CC forever, you have to blow your tab or accept you'll lose an insane amount of health, especially if Doom n Bloom is ready for use. After that you get 18 seconds of leeway, followed by 18 seconds of terror where you have to avoid every single form of hard CC (daze, stun, knockdown) or you're screwed.

In other words, if you're not a BD or a KFM, you're pretty much screwed unless the Summoner makes a mistake. A big one at that.

That said however, if the Grapple gets nerfed, then Summoner is screwed against the other broken classes. Take one tyrant down, a new one will take their place. After all, the BD Phantom Grip isn't much different, with a CD far lower than people's "tab". The only difference is that if you have 0 latency and a keen eye, you might just be able to escape it. Far easier to time it against Destro/KFM.

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Phorni   

@op

 

summoner isnt op as people make them out to be, its just most people freak out cos they have a cat lol meanwhile half of summoners stuff is on the cat so knocking it unconscious or killing the summoner would help solve this issue.

 

But towards your question 

 

1: summoner is a legit counter 1v1 wise against sins 

 

2: your are not very good

 

3: sins shouldn't really get to be targeted by the cat since perma invis lol 

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JJhopper   

They should summon the cat after the fight begins, cats should have 10k hp no more....1 v1 not 2v1 didn't sign up for this 

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