Bid System sucks.

[Zellogi]

Just now, VRock said:

i'm lvl 45 and never ran out of keys still have 50 keys left.

You also probably didn't have to go through this shit. So your post is irrelevant.

[otiveht]

OP:

It does suck you had to run that many times, but just laugh at the person who got a item for a stupid price. I think its a brilliant system, people just need to realize that there will always be those people who dont care about money and will have alot of ingame currency.

[Yancha]

On 1/26/2016 at 9:51 AM, BabygirlMinx said:

 

If you want something bad enough, sometimes you have to over pay for it.   That's a choice, not abuse.

I want to hear whats wrong with the dice system rather than defense of the bidding system

[BabygirlMinx]

3 minutes ago, Yancha said:

I want to hear whats wrong with the dice system rather than defense of the bidding system

 

Well for one, in the dice system your chance of getting a item you really want is completely out of your power.  At least with the bid system if you really need and want something its completely within your power to be able to get it.  You just have to outbit for it.

 

For two, with the dice system only the winner of the roll wins something.  In the bid system, everybody wins something with every item.

[VRock]

3 minutes ago, Zellogi said:

You also probably didn't have to go through this shit. So your post is irrelevant.

i did and i troll people like that. i start bid silvers and they bid more then i just stop bidding and they win a useless untradeable weapon/soulshield for them.

[Yancha]

On 1/26/2016 at 9:57 AM, BabygirlMinx said:

 

Well for one, in the dice system your chance of getting a item you really want is completely out of your power.  At least with the bid system if you really need and want something its completely within your power to be able to get it.  You just have to outbit for it.

Or items could favor you for rolls and go into a bid system after a dice roll

 

The team leader could decide on the system when the party is made as well

[VRock]

7 minutes ago, Yancha said:

I want to hear whats wrong with the dice system rather than defense of the bidding system

is good system like the person made same run as you, don't you think he deservers some reward? you get your item but the other 5 players get nothing so they increase the bid so they get silvers and you get your item, so no one loses time. if was need/greed system the other 5 players which made that run would leave with nothing!

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Wall-o-text incoming!
 

At first glance, the bidding system may indeed seem it is heavily favoring players with a huge amount of currency. Chance (basically rolling dice) may seem a better alternative. Well let’s have a look at that with a mathematical approach.

Before going any further, let’s take the following scenario: you are running a dungeon with 5 other players, something drops and everyone competes on it. That something drops every run (let’s not add other variables which aren’t related to the loot distribution system itself).
 
Chance / Rolling Dice

Every run, your chance (rolling dice) of winning the loot you want is p=0.166667 in this scenario.

Let’s have a look at your cumulative chance of getting what you want at least once, P(X >= 1) (cumulative probability), values are rounded up to the nearest 1/1000th.

 

2 runs: P= 0.306
3 runs: P= 0.421
4 runs: P= 0.518
5 runs: P= 0.598
6 runs: P= 0.665
9 runs: P= 0.806
10 runs: P= 0.838
12 runs: P= 0.888
18 runs: P= 0.962
 
What are these numbers meaning?

• If you roll on an item 6 times, against 5 other players every time, you have 66.5% chance of winning at least once.
• If you roll on an item 10 times, against 5 other players every time, you still have 16.2% chance of getting nothing.
• If you roll on an item 18 times, against 5 other players every time, you still have 3.8% chance of getting nothing.

 

You know that feeling when you open a Weapon Lockbox and pray to have the weapon for your class and waste 12+ keys on the same Box? Well that’s exactly the same here with a simple rolling dice system.

The Bidding System

With the bidding system, every time you lose an auction, the winning bid is equally redistributed across the party. The state of the Economy will dictate the price of almost everything. So bids will be in line with the current value players are giving to each item. If bids are lower than average, you can take advantage of it and win straight away. If bids are higher you still take advantage of it by accumulating more currency than you should have.
 
If you are after an item which is valued 50 silver. You run a dungeon 5 times, you lose the bid 5 times. Let's assume that you were beaten by players bidding 55 silver every time. (Worst case scenario.)
 
You will receive 11 silver for every dungeon run where you have lost the auction.
 
After 5 runs, you will now own 55 silver, allowing you to technically win the next bid.
After 10 runs, you will now own 110 silver, allowing you to bid twice the price of the item should you wish to do so. At that point you are almost guaranteed to win and even if you don't, well... that's at least another 22 silver straight into your pocket.
 
I wouldn't mind losing bids if I get paid money to eventually have twice the value of an item. What about you? If you were rolling dices at that point you could have had nothing at all, no currency, no loot.
 
The Bidding System also allows players to keep running dungeons even if they don't need certain loots anymore just so they can acquire more currency. That gives a reason to play content you don't directly need an item from which is something a typical rolling dice system doesn't offer. Don't forget as well that if no one wants an item, its sell back value gets automatically shared across the party.

Conclusion

The bidding system isn't perfect in all situations. When you play with your Guild or Friends, you may want to adjust the system and disable Auctions. That is something the party leader can choose. With a random party however, the Bidding System favor players who plays the content a lot opposed to players who are lucky. If you keep losing auctions, you keep getting currency. If you keep getting currency, you are way more likely to keep winning the next auctions.
 
With a rolling dice system, losing doesn't guarantee you anything. Each trial is independent. All it does is rewarding players who are lucky to get something quickly and punishing unlucky players to never get the item they want (exactly like Weapon Lock-boxes, except that you don't have any Blue keys).
 
Notes
 
I fully understand that the above is purely theoretical. Obviously in reality, you won't always run dungeons with 5 others players and you won't be competing for loots against 5 others player as well. The item you want may not drop every run as well.
 
But to compare two different systems properly, it is important to exclude external factors which are affecting both system equally. The number of players or item drop rate affects both systems the same way.

[BabygirlMinx]

1 minute ago, Yancha said:

Or items could favor you for rolls and go into a bid system after a dice roll

 

The team leader could decide on the system when the party is made as well

 

Omg I know you didint just say the team leader will decide.  That can really be abused *smh

[Yancha]

On 1/26/2016 at 9:59 AM, VRock said:

is good system like the person made same run as you, don't you think he deservers some reward? you get your item but the other 5 players get nothing so they increase the bid so they get silvers and you get your item, so no one loses time. if was need/greed system the other 5 players which made that run would leave with nothing!

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Wall-o-text incoming!
 

At first glance, the bidding system may indeed seem it is heavily favoring players with a huge amount of currency. Chance (basically rolling dice) may seem a better alternative. Well let’s have a look at that with a mathematical approach.

Before going any further, let’s take the following scenario: you are running a dungeon with 5 other players, something drops and everyone competes on it. That something drops every run (let’s not add other variables which aren’t related to the loot distribution system itself).
 
Chance / Rolling Dice

Every run, your chance (rolling dice) of winning the loot you want is p=0.166667 in this scenario.

Let’s have a look at your cumulative chance of getting what you want at least once, P(X >= 1) (cumulative probability), values are rounded up to the nearest 1/1000th.

 

2 runs: P= 0.306
3 runs: P= 0.421
4 runs: P= 0.518
5 runs: P= 0.598
6 runs: P= 0.665
9 runs: P= 0.806
10 runs: P= 0.838
12 runs: P= 0.888
18 runs: P= 0.962
 
What are these numbers meaning?

• If you roll on an item 6 times, against 5 other players every time, you have 66.5% chance of winning at least once.
• If you roll on an item 10 times, against 5 other players every time, you still have 16.2% chance of getting nothing.
• If you roll on an item 18 times, against 5 other players every time, you still have 3.8% chance of getting nothing.

 

You know that feeling when you open a Weapon Lockbox and pray to have the weapon for your class and waste 12+ keys on the same Box? Well that’s exactly the same here with a simple rolling dice system.

The Bidding System

With the bidding system, every time you lose an auction, the winning bid is equally redistributed across the party. The state of the Economy will dictate the price of almost everything. So bids will be in line with the current value players are giving to each item. If bids are lower than average, you can take advantage of it and win straight away. If bids are higher you still take advantage of it by accumulating more currency than you should have.
 
If you are after an item which is valued 50 silver. You run a dungeon 5 times, you lose the bid 5 times. Let's assume that you were beaten by players bidding 55 silver every time. (Worst case scenario.)
 
You will receive 11 silver for every dungeon run where you have lost the auction.
 
After 5 runs, you will now own 55 silver, allowing you to technically win the next bid.
After 10 runs, you will now own 110 silver, allowing you to bid twice the price of the item should you wish to do so. At that point you are almost guaranteed to win and even if you don't, well... that's at least another 22 silver straight into your pocket.
 
I wouldn't mind losing bids if I get paid money to eventually have twice the value of an item. What about you? If you were rolling dices at that point you could have had nothing at all, no currency, no loot.
 
The Bidding System also allows players to keep running dungeons even if they don't need certain loots anymore just so they can acquire more currency. That gives a reason to play content you don't directly need an item from which is something a typical rolling dice system doesn't offer. Don't forget as well that if no one wants an item, its sell back value gets automatically shared across the party.

Conclusion

The bidding system isn't perfect in all situations. When you play with your Guild or Friends, you may want to adjust the system and disable Auctions. That is something the party leader can choose. With a random party however, the Bidding System favor players who plays the content a lot opposed to players who are lucky. If you keep losing auctions, you keep getting currency. If you keep getting currency, you are way more likely to keep winning the next auctions.
 
With a rolling dice system, losing doesn't guarantee you anything. Each trial is independent. All it does is rewarding players who are lucky to get something quickly and punishing unlucky players to never get the item they want (exactly like Weapon Lock-boxes, except that you don't have any Blue keys).
 
Notes
 
I fully understand that the above is purely theoretical. Obviously in reality, you won't always run dungeons with 5 others players and you won't be competing for loots against 5 others player as well. The item you want may not drop every run as well.
 
But to compare two different systems properly, it is important to exclude external factors which are affecting both system equally. The number of players or item drop rate affects both systems the same way.

Youre missing a few things here

 

Lets start with this

"At first glance, the bidding system may indeed seem it is heavily favoring players with a huge amount of currency."

 

The bidding system favors those with lower currency. Its an easy way to make money from players for things they dont need. Players with currency will likely buy the item, already have it, or not care either way and drop out

 

Your dice roll numbers are assuming full party and dont take into account dropping out to have a higher chance for a better roll in the next drop. Things that make the roll system work more. You mentioned this at the end but thats a huge factor when youre taking worst case scenario

 

"The Bidding System also allows players to keep running dungeons even if they don't need certain loots anymore just so they can acquire more currency. "

 

Theres always a point where you dont need more currency or gear and wont have more reason to run a particular dungeon aside from wanting to

 

 

"With a rolling dice system, losing doesn't guarantee you anything."

 

That could easily be changed

 

 

 

[Krocodile]

4 hours ago, Zellogi said:

Plus steal the one drop you need that they can't even use

 

They aren't stealing it, unlike in other games. They are literately paying you for it.

[RustyCircuit]

3 hours ago, Nibaki said:

It's your own fault that you didn't give a crap about earning money. It is quite easy to get gold if you have patience, and it doesn't even take that much time.

Saying that you got scammed is the stupidest thing I've read in forum so far.

Besides, every game will have people who get their needs with real money.

And most importantly don't forget, nobody cares what you need, you gotta work for it. The fact that you just run the dungeon doesn't mean everything, and you're not the only one. We are not your parents after all, ain't gonna feed you lil crybaby.

You just transmited your own personal issues on the OP...and missed the point of the post entirely. Point is drop rate is ridiculous, i will not go as far as say the boxes are rigged, but the odds are stacked against one. And most importantly the person who outbid OP on staff was a class that obviously did not need it in firts place (an assassin). The person was just being a dickhead for good reason, except for being one. 

That said the bidding system needs to be rewised, to lower the chance of trolling. The class items should be bound to class. If player does 

not need it,they can refuse and let others bid on it. Obviously, if there are more people with same class in party, the bidding is just between them, with no third party being able to jump in and inflate the price. The money from bid are distributed between all members of the party like 

usual. This is not fool proof, but at least if same class outbids you, one will not feel as bitter, plus it reduces chances of getting trolled considerably.

About Soul Shields, in my experience, you should have collected youre set a long time ago. You should consider farming up the keys and open those boxes. They give a Soul Shield piece at random. You might not get your weapon, but a complete set of Shields you are guaranteed. 

[Vertoxis]

1 hour ago, seabass315 said:

 

Well its either they make it so allowing only the classes that need in to roll on it ( if that class is in the group ) or you have this problem, people using the fact that they have more money that someone else and taking an item that person needs because of greed.  As it is right now the system doesn't work.

and then you get a cut of that insane amount of money

giving you the ability to then do the same thing

the money that person spent is split 5 ways... you get 1/5 of what he spent  (im not sure if you know that.... a lot of people do not know this yet surprisingly and think the winning buyers money just goes "poof" )


so those big bids that you lose to... you still gain money... to make a big bid the next time

Thats how the system works... thats how im using it.... and im  41 with my gear fully upgraded to that point in the game ...... and i missed two days of head start

So again.... everyone wants to fight the system.... well until it changes... i will be USING the system to gain... instead of fighting it

Again you arent understanding that loot may not be a case by case variable in the coding... and that it may be a blanketed term... thus it may take rewriting the code to make it 'class specific' and have it work

at that point ... all those greens and blues you get out in the world... would not drop as frequently... thus evolving gets harder, every system has its flaws 

this one is no exception ... but i do prefer it over rolling

Rolling has a chance of you NEVER winning the roll 

Bidding well.... every time i lose... i gain more to bid with... eventually im gonna bust out that big bid and just say "MINE NOT YOURS.. MINE ALL MINE!!!!!!!!!!!" and pay my group a ton of money lololol

 

[Vertoxis]

1 hour ago, BabygirlMinx said:

 

The system is designed for the person who wants it more will simply bid the most and get it.  If you don't have the money now, you need to work on that.  There will always be someone with more money than another who will win a bid because they are richer.  Thats the name of the game.  Dedicate yourself to making money and no item will ever be out of your reach.  You can be that person, or you can be the person complaining about that person.  Those are your two choices.  That is the beauty of this system.  

Yeap

but even that doesnt need to be done... i never focused on farming gold ......... and im at 10 gold at level 41,i just keep running the dungeons

those high bids that win.... pay you... (i have won 10-15 silver in some auctions i simply pass on and don't even bump the auction to make more)

you then have the money to be that big bidder..... and pay your group .... the money circulates and doesnt go "Poof" 

now i also do bump items... i never let anyone i don't know get away with a 1c win in a dungeon-finder group :-P

[RustyCircuit]

24 minutes ago, Vertoxis said:

and then you get a cut of that insane amount of money

giving you the ability to then do the same thing

the money that person spent is split 5 ways... you get 1/5 of what he spent  (im not sure if you know that.... a lot of people do not know this yet surprisingly and think the winning buyers money just goes "poof" )

....

 

One still essentially wastes time...Time and effort are always more valuable in the end.

They should really look into class specific items, since its a more sensitive matter, that ultimately causes most frustration. One feels cheated, if a class, that ultimately can not use it inflates the price, or even wins. Do not come back at me, that piece of crap fed to your gear in the end is worth 80 silver...Or that they need a reward for running the dungeon too. There are none class specific items, to cover that. In the end its just greed. I might be in minority, but inflating value on item scrap fed to gear, is just not right in my book.

P.s I have suggested how this issue might be addressed in my post above.

[Glint]

I like the bid system. When people start going bid crazy on something and spam Y, I just knock up a silver or two, and they keep hitting Y... Make some good money!

[Vertoxis]

2 hours ago, Yancha said:

I want to hear whats wrong with the dice system rather than defense of the bidding system

Took me 3 months in WoW to get Zinrokh from ZG because of the dice system 

.. 3 months .... tons of attempts..... and the times it dropped out of those attemmpts.. about 15-16 (i rememeber it vividly... i started to keep count so it was actually more then this

 i kept count because i never have and since then have never had such a string of bad luck)  

Dice system only works if you roll high.... and if everyone is honest on need rolls

You could say "Well then why not just have party leader make sure on loot rollls" .. well you could also argue the same on this system 

if we are talking dice and dice alone.... in theory... you can have a chance of never ever getting the item 


With a bidding system.... that pays YOU 1/5 of the winning bid...the theory behind this is... you will eventually over time build up enough income even by just losing bids .... to outbid someone eventually....  you WILL get the item eventually.... with a dice system... there is always the chance of someone needing on it and trolling you 


Now again you could say "make it class specific" but thats not talking about the raw dice vs bid system ... you could add class-specific to the bid system

[Vertoxis]

9 minutes ago, RustyCircuit said:

One still essentially wastes time...Time and effort are always more valuable in the end.

They should really look into class specific items, since its a more sensitive matter, that ultimately causes most frustration. One feels cheated, if a class, that ultimately can not use it inflates the price, or even wins. Do not come back at me, that piece of crap fed to your gear in the end is worth 80 silver...Or that they need a reward for running the dungeon too. There are none class specific items, to cover that. In the end its just greed. I might be in minority, but inflating value on item scrap fed to gear, is just not right in my book.

P.s I have suggested how this issue might be addressed in my post above.

so whats stopping you from inflating the price and using the system as intended? 

in the end "Class specific" has its problems as well 

you end up with less drops out in the world ... again people are thinking they can just have class specific in a dungeon and have it all world loot out in the world

you make it class specific.. then you have to tone down drop rate of items outside the dungeon due to it always dropping the blues you would need for the breakthrough item.... thats the balance of it all 


Also that idiot spending 80 silver on something he doesnt need... well hes an idiot for wasting that amount.. he doesnt have the amount you think he does and probably just took a big hit one a stupid price bump ... so he payed you and completely lost out

I love to bump the price a little

but would never risk over 5-10 silver atm on something i don't need.... 80 silver on an item you cannot use is retarded ..... 

[Vertoxis]

6 minutes ago, Glint said:

I like the bid system. When people start going bid crazy on something and spam Y, I just knock up a silver or two, and they keep hitting Y... Make some good money!

i always sneak it up to at least 1 silver at the start lolol

[Lifesong]

You can get everything you need to progress through the game without ever bidding on anything. You can even complete epic soul shields without bidding. Personal chests ensure you always get something out of a dungeon. In most MMOs you get one chance for items. Here you get two. At the end game you get an additional currency that allows you to buy important stuff from the dungeon bringing that up to 3 chances.

 

Bidding is a much better system than random rolls. You get both in this game, but lets put that aside for a moment and focus the bidding. It allows players to earn the loot they want and it rewards the other players who play with them. It gives players a reason to keep farming dungeons they don't need anything from and it rewards them for being helpful when someone else wins an item they actually want. It gives pugging for rare items meaning and lowers the odds of players obtaining items they don't really care to have.

 

I'll say that I've found the player base to be far less toxic than these forums seem to suggest. I've collected all of my dungeon drop weapons pre Blackram Supply Chain and no one bid me up on any of them. Even the other summoners let me have things for the bid charge.

[Vertoxis]

4 minutes ago, Lifesong said:

You can get everything you need to progress through the game without ever bidding on anything. You can even complete epic soul shields without bidding. Personal chests ensure you always get something out of a dungeon. In most MMOs you get one chance for items. Here you get two. At the end game you get an additional currency that allows you to buy important stuff from the dungeon bringing that up to 3 chances.

 

Bidding is a much better system than random rolls. You get both in this game, but lets put that aside for a moment and focus the bidding. It allows players to earn the loot they want and it rewards the other players who play with them. It gives players a reason to keep farming dungeons they don't need anything from and it rewards them for being helpful when someone else wins an item they actually want. It gives pugging for rare items meaning and lowers the odds of players obtaining items they don't really care to have.

 

I'll say that I've found the player base to be far less toxic than these forums seem to suggest. I've collected all of my dungeon drop weapons pre Blackram Supply Chain and no one bid me up on any of them. Even the other summoners let me have things for the bid charge.

oh yeah i forgot about the chest you get for a second chance

 

[RustyCircuit]

12 minutes ago, Vertoxis said:

so whats stopping you from inflating the price and using the system as intended? 

in the end "Class specific" has its problems as well 

you end up with less drops out in the world ... again people are thinking they can just have class specific in a dungeon and have it all world loot out in the world

you make it class specific.. then you have to tone down drop rate of items outside the dungeon due to it always dropping the blues you would need for the breakthrough item.... thats the balance of it all 
 

I did not say it is perfect, but something  needs to be done. The drop rate is already atrocious, i doubt it can get lower, though it might be better outside dungeons, am not sure, so i wont argue about that. 

The sense of fairness keeps me from "playing" the system, i guess. If the person really needs that *cricket* weapon, who am i to come along and try to wring the "newb" out of their last copper piece. Who knows, maybe when an item drops, that i may need, the other team members will be of the same mindset, as i was. In the end it all runs down to wasted effort and time. I do not know about you, but extra 5 silver, or even 10 pieces, will not make me feel less cheated, if someone inflated price on a scrap gear, their class cannot use.

[Yancha]

On 1/26/2016 at 0:12 PM, Vertoxis said:

Took me 3 months in WoW to get Zinrokh from ZG because of the dice system 

.. 3 months .... tons of attempts..... and the times it dropped out of those attemmpts.. about 15-16 (i rememeber it vividly... i started to keep count so it was actually more then this

 i kept count because i never have and since then have never had such a string of bad luck)  

Dice system only works if you roll high.... and if everyone is honest on need rolls

You could say "Well then why not just have party leader make sure on loot rollls" .. well you could also argue the same on this system 

if we are talking dice and dice alone.... in theory... you can have a chance of never ever getting the item 


With a bidding system.... that pays YOU 1/5 of the winning bid...the theory behind this is... you will eventually over time build up enough income even by just losing bids .... to outbid someone eventually....  you WILL get the item eventually.... with a dice system... there is always the chance of someone needing on it and trolling you 


Now again you could say "make it class specific" but thats not talking about the raw dice vs bid system ... you could add class-specific to the bid system

The system should prioritize class over anything else

 

Ive never tried WoW but have played games such as DFO with a dice role system and actually one where the item went to whoever got the most hits, not most damage.

 

The system shouldnt be like the one in DFO or WoW alone

 

An improved dice system that shifts chances and priorities based on class and need/greed along with earlier rolls

 

If you choose to pass youll get higher priority rolls throughout the rest of the dungeon

 

If your class is the one the weapon uses you get a higher roll

 

Also having the option to choose bid or dice roll and being able to bid out an item you won with dice would help

[LordLokai]

Like i've said in other posts... bid system is to abuseable, are people will bid just to force you to pay as much as possible, or even steal items to troll people... its not that i want the bid system removed. I'd just like an option for a traditional Rolling system, because i avoid grouping in this game right now as i cant STAND the auction system...

[TalonShina]

Did black narrows yesterday with the same group a few times passed on things I saw others pass on unless i truly needed it and then bid on my soul shield pieces by the last run i needed two pieces and I made sure people in the group knew I needed only 2 pieces and I proceeded to bid to ensure I got what i needed while passing on everything else. I jumped the price of the item i needed on purpose but i feel this system is better than just clicking NEED. I usually greeded on items unless I really really really needed it but if i saw everyone Needing I needed because I wanted to ensure loot the bid system works great because it forces you to make choices with your in game gold and I found if you talk with people about what you are looking for some will back off unless they really want it and then you bid accordingly and sometimes have to make the choice of when to bow out 

 

People will abuse it for the hell of it and wanting to be trolls but I think overall there will be less trolls than a need/greed system 

and I don't want items to randomly go to each member of the group because you are likely to end up still needing that one item that never circles to you

[Stranger]

The bid system is the best thing about the dungeons in Blade and Soul. I just wished more players would pass if they didn't want to bid, it would speed up the system.