Bid System sucks.

[N3ph1lim]

Yet another exhausted topic about this.

 

Bid system is awesome if you know how to play with it. Furthermore, it's the game's feature so it's here to stay. You're free to leave if you don't like it, but please stop changing the game to suit your "preferences"

 

[Yancha]

On 1/26/2016 at 0:59 PM, N3ph1lim said:

Yet another exhausted topic about this.

 

Bid system is awesome if you know how to play with it. Furthermore, it's the game's feature so it's here to stay. You're free to leave if you don't like it, but please keep changing the game to suit your "preferences"

 

What do you think forums are for?

[879491_1452550463]

I hope this loot system catches on honestly.

 

This loot system keeps the economy healthy and cash flowing between players no matter how inflated it becomes.  Everyone literally ALWAYS gets 1/6th the value of the dungeon run either in items or cash, and cash is important in this game.  

[Ghobe]

The biggest problem with the bid system is that you can get stuff for 1-20 copper on one run and then the next it goes for upwards of a gold. And I'm not going to complain about going for a gold, rather that the items start out too cheap. I don't want to see Blackram Narrows items starting at 10 silver, but they do need to come up from 1 copper.

[Vertoxis]

1 hour ago, Yancha said:

The system should prioritize class over anything else

 

Ive never tried WoW but have played games such as DFO with a dice role system and actually one where the item went to whoever got the most hits, not most damage.

 

The system shouldnt be like the one in DFO or WoW alone

 

An improved dice system that shifts chances and priorities based on class and need/greed along with earlier rolls

 

If you choose to pass youll get higher priority rolls throughout the rest of the dungeon

 

If your class is the one the weapon uses you get a higher roll

 

Also having the option to choose bid or dice roll and being able to bid out an item you won with dice would help

first how would that solve my problem, Warriors paladins hunters (DK's were not around yet) could all use it ... it was the BEST IN SLOT stat item at the time for hunters (We used bows... but back then we had melee as well.. and it was just a stat item.. like a helmet for us.. our weapons was the bow) ... warriors had much better and easier access to Ashkandi and another weapon (Both being better for them... but garbage as a stat item for hunters) ... so how would that work out in priority.... hunters dont directly bash things with it.. a warrior would.. but a warrior could easily obtain 2-3 other swords that are better.... that the hunter has no use for.... 

so how would a priority system read that? does the warrior/pally that would bash things with it.. then upgrade it within a day or two ... or the hunter that would use it until the next content release... because its the best he could get in that slot 

... because if a warrior has a lesser weapon.. hes going to use it directly.. but not nearly for as long 

.... all systems have flaws... 


also and Again would this effect just dungeon items or outside world items?... when a system like that is implemented, they would turn down the already atrocious droprate to "balance it" 

So you would end up not getting the item for the exact same amount of time as now ... with no gold earned from not getting it

[Daemeon]

The bid system is toxic and creates opportunity for toxic people to be jerks.

 

When you get screwed by RNG ya feel bad but chalk it up to bad luck.  When ya get screwed by a player that does not need the item with a bid it's a person screwing with you and it creates a bad feeling of being ripped off.

 

The money is pointless.  As the game matures and more people at the highest levels gain deeper and deeper pockets it will be extremely easy for trolls to go to lower end dungeons to either snag all the loot or wipe out a poor low level characters coins.  That is toxic.. and needs to be stopped.

 

It is NEVER a good answer to something to say, "But you can do it too!" when talking about something the person hates and has had a bad experience with.  That's like saying, "I know you hated getting mugged by a bigger guy but hey, you can do it to the smaller guy yourself!"

[GnatB]

38 minutes ago, 879491_1452550463 said:

 Everyone literally ALWAYS gets 1/6th the value of the dungeon run either in items or cash, and cash is important in this game.  

 

Only if players are "forced" to pay a fair price for the items that drop... but people complain about being bid up on items by "trolls" when they're the only ones that can use 'em.

 

 

Which is why I support the idea of a calculated minimum bid, based on historic contested bids.  (would help normalize the price some, too)

[Yancha]

On 1/26/2016 at 1:51 PM, Vertoxis said:

first how would that solve my problem, Warriors paladins hunters (DK's were not around yet) could all use it ... it was the BEST IN SLOT stat item at the time for hunters (We used bows... but back then we had melee as well.. and it was just a stat item.. like a helmet for us.. our weapons was the bow) ... warriors had much better and easier access to Ashkandi and another weapon (Both being better for them... but garbage as a stat item for hunters) ... so how would that work out in priority.... hunters dont directly bash things with it.. a warrior would.. but a warrior could easily obtain 2-3 other swords that are better.... that the hunter has no use for.... 

so how would a priority system read that? does the warrior/pally that would bash things with it.. then upgrade it within a day or two ... or the hunter that would use it until the next content release... because its the best he could get in that slot 

... because if a warrior has a lesser weapon.. hes going to use it directly.. but not nearly for as long 

.... all systems have flaws... 


also and Again would this effect just dungeon items or outside world items?... when a system like that is implemented, they would turn down the already atrocious droprate to "balance it" 

So you would end up not getting the item for the exact same amount of time as now ... with no gold earned from not getting it

Can you simplify this for me

 

Im not sure i understand

On 1/26/2016 at 2:17 PM, GnatB said:

 

Only if players are "forced" to pay a fair price for the items that drop... but people complain about being bid up on items by "trolls" when they're the only ones that can use 'em.

 

 

Which is why I support the idea of a calculated minimum bid, based on historic contested bids.  (would help normalize the price some, too)

^This idea has wings

 

Another game i played (Cant remember which) Shows average prices for items sold so youll never overbid on something

 

It also had trends

[CorrosionWhite]

I also think something you're not considering is that the assassin mentioned by the OP may have bid on the staff to use as fodder to upgrade their own weapon.  A lot of times it ends up being cheaper and faster than farming random drops or buying keys to open weapon boxes.  Still a dick move imo.

 

The bidding system can be frustrating at times, no denying that, but it's still one of the best loot systems I've seen.  I much prefer it to "dash and grab" or randomized. 

 

@OP alot of the dailies give the choice between a valor stone and a key so if you're really frustrated maybe blow some steam off knocking out some dailies for some keys and open some of that stash of weapon boxes.  Also, even without the infernal upgrade your weapon is sufficient to do quests around the Lycandi Foothills area if you wanted to move past Cinderlands for more dailies. 

[Drremorre]

I would much rather this game have randomized individual loot for all. It would accomplish the same thing just without the bidding.

[Vertoxis]

Yancha, 

No problem! id be happy to attempt to make it a bit more understandable... i hope it helps

Basically... a priority system doesnt entirely work because basic items are used to evolve (IE a green quality axe is evolve fodder... its never going to be literally used as is.... its going to be dumped into a weapon to add to its level) 

Priority would give all axes to destroyers.. see the system may not be a loot by loot case of coding... the code could literally be an "All or nothing" setting .... and recoding it may be too buggy or may screw up things that are already there..... and coding each and every last item's priority well... no thats not going to happen

So we would be stuck with less loot overall.... prio looting wouldnt even allow those drops to happen while soloing .... especially if its a "Your loot" system like other mmo's use 


Another example.. which is the one i used before was if a game has a loot system where other classes actually share weapon types... Hunters in the older days of WoW used melee weapons as a "Stat" item (They used their ranged weapon IE bow/gun) while warriors and rogues could use bows as stat items (And clearly a bow with STR on it "Hunters used AGI" is NOT for a hunter) ... but when it came to melee weapons.. it got weird... especially the item im talking about .... see STR = Attack power for warriors, and AGI = Attack power for hunters

Now this sword came simply with stamina (Health) and 80 attack power ... raw attack power ( 1 STR = 2attack power for a warrior and 1 agi = 2 ap for a hunter... so an actual stat was preference over raw AP.. but it existed on items) 

SOOO this sword with 80 ap.. was the BEST POSSIBLE sword a hunter could  get... (Since most swords came with STR as a stat which a hunter wouldnt use) .. there were two swords with AP and STR that had been better... one being far easier to obtain then the sword in question.. the other being of a similar difficulty at that time to obtain.... but they were not of any use to hunters 


So how would a priority system weigh in on that  (Would it chose the hunter because its the best item he can get to fill that slot in the entire game...... or the warrior because he would actually swing it as his weapon... even tho in a day or two he will upgrade it and destroy the sword for material)

which to pull it full circle... how would a prio system work in this..... see epic items provide nice gains on evolve.... now i am not one to take an item for an evolve over someone who needs it...... but a prio system might confuse that ... 

ANd a rolling system could keep you on bad rolls for weeks on end

At least with bidding.. you earn a cut of the winning bid.... which you can eventually save up to be the big money buyer eventually... 

In my in guild WoW DKP bidding system.... i earned an item AT LEAST every 2 weeks

We ran the instance that drops the above 80 attack power sword on a different system.. pure rolls ..... i didnt get that sword for 3 months 

to me thats a clear cut personal reason why i like bidding.. eventually i will have the most currency for it and win

[Vertoxis]

20 hours ago, Drremorre said:

I would much rather this game have randomized individual loot for all. It would accomplish the same thing just without the bidding.

and there is the chance as i said in a post

that the dice never roll in your favor and you never end up with the item

(in WOW on a random/roll system... i missed out on a best in slot item over people who upgraded after getting it...2 days later) 

3 months... never got the item

[Drremorre]

1 hour ago, Vertoxis said:

and there is the chance as i said in a post

that the dice never roll in your favor and you never end up with the item

(in WOW on a random/roll system... i missed out on a best in slot item over people who upgraded after getting it...2 days later) 

3 months... never got the item

 

I said randomized loot for all not dice rolls which is only one item. Everyone gets their own random item instead of competing for one. THis is what vindictus does and even with it's abhorrent RNG it still works. AND AFTER RUNNING NARROWS 14 TIMES AND A GAUNTLET FINALLY DROPS ONLY FOR A SUMMONER TO SLAP DOWN 10 SILVER FOR IT THIS SYSTEM SUCKS BUTTS!!!

[kgptzac]

The auction system is much better than dice rolling, since there is only one RNG involved (the item drop rate) instead of two or more (the dice you roll).  The assumption is people all have enough money.  It's kinda ridiculous for OP to claim having run this dungeon 85 times and end up with no money... do you zone out every time after every boss so you avoid getting paid on purpose?

 

Although I do think there's should be a party leader option to disallow bidding on class-inappropriate weapons.  But even now there's a risk for a bidder to drive up the cost of an item that they don't need... that is they end up winning the bid and having to pay.  Either way, the system is fine and logically better than most other distribution systems (apart from individual loots like the quest items).

[Yancha]

On 1/27/2016 at 0:27 PM, Vertoxis said:

Yancha, 

No problem! id be happy to attempt to make it a bit more understandable... i hope it helps

Basically... a priority system doesnt entirely work because basic items are used to evolve (IE a green quality axe is evolve fodder... its never going to be literally used as is.... its going to be dumped into a weapon to add to its level) 

Priority would give all axes to destroyers.. see the system may not be a loot by loot case of coding... the code could literally be an "All or nothing" setting .... and recoding it may be too buggy or may screw up things that are already there..... and coding each and every last item's priority well... no thats not going to happen

So we would be stuck with less loot overall.... prio looting wouldnt even allow those drops to happen while soloing .... especially if its a "Your loot" system like other mmo's use 


Another example.. which is the one i used before was if a game has a loot system where other classes actually share weapon types... Hunters in the older days of WoW used melee weapons as a "Stat" item (They used their ranged weapon IE bow/gun) while warriors and rogues could use bows as stat items (And clearly a bow with STR on it "Hunters used AGI" is NOT for a hunter) ... but when it came to melee weapons.. it got weird... especially the item im talking about .... see STR = Attack power for warriors, and AGI = Attack power for hunters

Now this sword came simply with stamina (Health) and 80 attack power ... raw attack power ( 1 STR = 2attack power for a warrior and 1 agi = 2 ap for a hunter... so an actual stat was preference over raw AP.. but it existed on items) 

SOOO this sword with 80 ap.. was the BEST POSSIBLE sword a hunter could  get... (Since most swords came with STR as a stat which a hunter wouldnt use) .. there were two swords with AP and STR that had been better... one being far easier to obtain then the sword in question.. the other being of a similar difficulty at that time to obtain.... but they were not of any use to hunters 


So how would a priority system weigh in on that  (Would it chose the hunter because its the best item he can get to fill that slot in the entire game...... or the warrior because he would actually swing it as his weapon... even tho in a day or two he will upgrade it and destroy the sword for material)

which to pull it full circle... how would a prio system work in this..... see epic items provide nice gains on evolve.... now i am not one to take an item for an evolve over someone who needs it...... but a prio system might confuse that ... 

ANd a rolling system could keep you on bad rolls for weeks on end

At least with bidding.. you earn a cut of the winning bid.... which you can eventually save up to be the big money buyer eventually... 

In my in guild WoW DKP bidding system.... i earned an item AT LEAST every 2 weeks

We ran the instance that drops the above 80 attack power sword on a different system.. pure rolls ..... i didnt get that sword for 3 months 

to me thats a clear cut personal reason why i like bidding.. eventually i will have the most currency for it and win

Priority wouldnt be a guarantee though. Just an increased chance for you to roll higher

 

im not sure if shared weapons would be a terrible issue and considering this game doesnt have shared weapons (So far) its not much of an issue

 

A bidding system could cost you all of your gold without checks. If it had checks i wouldnt mind it. The current bid system is much worse than rolls because of this

[Yamyatos]

- You dont need the soulshield. I mean sure it's best in slot for the level, but you will 45 rather fast and then it's useless. Not worth farming *only* for it. I know, you didnt. Just wanted to say this.

- You exaggerated the runs hilariously high. I dont buy that you did the dungeon 80 times or so lol. That would be like 4-6 runs an hour.. so let's average on 5, so you would need like 16 hours. I just highly doubt this. Especially when you get like 2 or 3 chances a dungeon run, and you as a level 38 will run out of keys AND money for keys waaay before that. So .. heck exaggerating doesnt bring you further too.

- I know it sucks when you dont get your weapon tho :( Nothing you can do.

- People cant sell Ncoin by now. The only thing they can do is gift stuff to other people and get gold for it, but nothing official or unrisky. 

[GnatB]

 

24 minutes ago, kgptzac said:

The auction system is much better than dice rolling, since there is only one RNG involved (the item drop rate) instead of two or more (the dice you roll).  The assumption is people all have enough money.  It's kinda ridiculous for OP to claim having run this dungeon 85 times and end up with no money... do you zone out every time after every boss so you avoid getting paid on purpose?

 

Although I do think there's should be a party leader option to disallow bidding on class-inappropriate weapons.  But even now there's a risk for a bidder to drive up the cost of an item that they don't need... that is they end up winning the bid and having to pay.  Either way, the system is fine and logically better than most other distribution systems (apart from individual loots like the quest items).

 

Nah, he ran it 85 times, but only one person could ever use the weapon that dropped, so they always just let that person win it for 1cp.  Oh, wait.  That's what you're suggesting should be mandatory in your second paragraph.... and this is why said suggestion is a bad idea.  For the system to work (correctly) you *shouldn't* be letting people get their class specific options cheap.  They need to pay a fair(ish) price for 'em. so you'll have money to buy yours if/when there's somebody else interested in it.