Killtrades a sort of Exploit ?!

[Victorion]

Just now, Hatsunya said:

When do you get it to ur thick head its not exploit it does not bug out game in any way.. With your logic then we should ban anyone who does dungeons in solo or less than intented party size because dungeons are mean for 4 or 6 man parties. So yeah great logic

How about you start to google definition of exploit. You seem to think that exploit is only an exploit if it´s by glitch abuse or bug abuse.

Exploit is a wider term, that just means that you´re taking advantage of a flaw (something not intended).

 

In video gaming, generally exploiting is closely related to cheating. And that´s excactly the case with kill-trading.

You´re claiming a pvp-quest reward and skipping the pvp-quest objective. It´s a form of cheating your way to quest rewards - in a manner clearly not intended by game design.

[Hatsunya]

2 minutes ago, Victorion said:

How about you start to google definition of exploit. You seem to think that exploit is only an exploit if it´s by glitch abuse or bug abuse.

Exploit is a wider term, that just means that you´re taking advantage of a flaw (something not intended).

 

In video gaming, generally exploiting is closely related to cheating. And that´s excactly the case with kill-trading.

You´re claiming a pvp-quest reward and skipping the pvp-quest objective. It´s a form of cheating your way to quest rewards - in a manner clearly not intended by game design.

Highly recommend you to start thinking about this. This is not exploiting you're not breaking game anyway. Also you or any one else has offered any sort of solution only crying over things that dont matter. You guys who cry over this are minority and biggest crybabies what i've ever seen.

 

If someone wants to killtrade how does it effect you anyway? It has no impact on you. Yeah now bring the damn argumen but they can get quest done 10minutes faster than you. Omfg get a life like it matters. Get over it and its not exploit in anyway. Has Ncsoft decided its exploit? No they have not because its not and they're fine ppl doing it

 

 

 

[Victorion]

@Risen Slacker

I never complained about killing the same player 10 times over. It´s the planned part where you don´t pvp, but intentionally find an underhand method to claim pvp-quest rewards without doing pvp. I think it´s undeserved. The rest of your post is off-topic.

 

@Hatsunya

Read again. Exploit is not defined by bug-abuse, glitch-abuse or game-breaking mechanics alone.

It´s defined as taking advantage by a flaw.

And thats what happening when you´re kill-trading. You´re taking advantage of the flawed game system, that can not make the distinction whether you killed a player in pvp or if the player just agreed to passively stand still 10 times over while you kill him.

 

10 minutes ago, Lunakitty said:

I understand the part that kill trading isn't real pvp

And no I was not intending to do personal attack. Just wanted to know why is it so big deal if others get the quest done easy way. Don't take everything as offence. As for me I wouldn't bother with such quest because those who usually wear the uniform are way more geared and skilled and I for now couldn't get any kills unless I attack low lvls OR do kill trading.

I appreciate the honesty, and that you recognize that you would have a much harder time to complete the quest if you were to do it the proper way. Personally I really don´t care if players cheat their way to it or not. It bears little impact on me. Since you asked previously about my motivation for posting, then I´ll level with you and tell you. I come from a game where pvp was enabled all day all the time everywhere. It gives motivation to improve, when you and your league are fighting for bosses and grind spots constantly. I´d love to a more active and better OWpvp environment in BnS, and kill trading just dont get us in that direction. I´d hate to see a pvp-centric game becoming all carebear. I´d lose interest and motivation for grind and staying.

[Hatsunya]

4 minutes ago, Victorion said:

@Risen Slacker

I never complained about killing the same player 10 times over. It´s the planned part where you don´t pvp, but intentionally find an underhand method to claim pvp-quest rewards without doing pvp. I think it´s undeserved. The rest of your post is off-topic.

 

@Hatsunya

Read again. Exploit is not defined by bug-abuse, glitch-abuse or game-breaking mechanics alone.

It´s defined as taking advantage by a flaw.

And thats what happening when you´re kill-trading. You´re taking advantage of the flawed game system, that can not make the distinction whether you killed a player in pvp or if the player just agreed to passively stand still 10 times over while you kill him.

 

I appreciate the honesty, and that you recognize that you would have a much harder time to complete the quest if you were to do it the proper way. Personally I really don´t care if players cheat their way to it or not. It bears little impact on me. Since you asked previously about my motivation for posting, then I´ll level with you and tell you. I come from a game where pvp was enabled all day all the time everywhere. It gives motivation to improve, when you and your league are fighting for bosses and grind spots constantly. I´d love to a more active and better OWpvp environment in BnS, and kill trading just dont get us in that direction. I´d hate to see a pvp-centric game becoming all carebear. I´d lose interest and motivation for grind and staying.

You can hate it all you want and you dont want to do it but its not up to you if someone else wants to save 10 minutes of their time and killtrade. But it does not break game design in anyway yeah and theres nothing wrong to do it. It has no impact on anything. Quest design was kill 10 opposite faction member and players are doing it. Impact to anyone is almost non existing. Heck even Assassins / summoners get better advantage towards others when they solo content that others take more time to do. Should they be banned nope.

 

Only thing you've offered is crying over nothing and demanding bans to ppl who just play the game and dont cause harm to anyone. You've yet to offer any sort of solution or other idea what kind of quest would be interesting. So why are you still shedding your tears?

 

 

And if you want more owpvp then go there and start fighting. Atleast on my server theres always pvp going on and can get owpvp if i want to

[Lunakitty]

The argue over is kill trading exploit could go on forever since people have different views and unless we get NCsoft's opinion about it we cannot get to any conclusion. Though I must say I kinda get the feeling from this that the argue has similar hint to as debate of p2w having upper hand than f2p players. Paying is part of the game system but so is the kill trade possible play style to do quests (for now). Don't get me wrong that I stupidly used some other situation as example that is different from what the topic states. This is purely my personal opinion how this debate can keep going on forever.

[Victorion]

Actually it´s quite simply Lunakitty.

 

Hatsunya thinks that exploit is only an exploit if it "breaks the game design." or if you abuse a bug or glitch. If he or she realize, that exploit it actually a broader term - he/she should also just admit that this is clearly an exploit.

 

Whether or not this specific exploit is tolerable and whether NCsoft are actively going to enforce bans for exploiting this - thats a whole other topic conversation.

Like I stated above, I don´t care if players get more soulstones or if they get them easier. However, if it hurts OWpvp, I am totally against it.

 

@Hatsunya

Perhaps you should stop being so aggressive in your posts. I am not crying in any of my posts, I replying to the topic creator about whether or not kill-trade is an exploit.

But since you keep insisting that I am "crying" - how about you just man up and either do your faction quests the real way - or stop claiming the rewards all-together?

In other words - stop cheating and stop trying to defend that you´re cheating.

 

 

[Hatsunya]

1 minute ago, Victorion said:

Actually it´s quite simply Lunakitty.

 

Hatsunya thinks that exploit is only an exploit if it "breaks the game design." or if you abuse a bug or glitch. If he or she realize, that exploit it actually a broader term - he/she should also just admit that this is clearly an exploit.

 

Whether or not this specific exploit is tolerable and whether NCsoft are actively going to enforce bans for exploiting this - thats a whole other topic conversation.

Like I stated above, I don´t care if players get more soulstones or if they get them easier. However, if it hurts OWpvp, I am totally against it.

 

@Hatsunya

Perhaps you should stop being so aggressive in your posts. I am not crying in any of my posts, I replying to the topic creator about whether or not kill-trade is an exploit.

But since you keep insisting that I am "crying" - how about you just man up and either do your faction quests the real way - or stop claiming the rewards all-together?

In other words - stop cheating and stop trying to defend that you´re cheating.

 

 

I stated long time ago in this thread im not doing faction dailies at all because they're waste of my time and i dont care if someone killtrades or not but what i care is that i see everyday someone like you or poster causing cryfest over things that does not matter at all or has no impact on anything so how about man up and wipe those tears =)

[Nilkemios]

At this point, I'm starting to think Victorion is just trolling.

[KustoSan]

What am I reading.

I wonder if you've ever bothered searching for what an "Exploit" is. Ogong door bug abuse was an exploit, this is clearly not.

> There is an AFK red.
> Blue decides to kill multiple times said red.
> He's not doing legit PvP.
> Exploit exploit!!!!!
 

[Victorion]

18 minutes ago, KustoSan said:

What am I reading.

I wonder if you've ever bothered searching for what an "Exploit" is. Ogong door bug abuse was an exploit, this is clearly not.

> There is an AFK red.
> Blue decides to kill multiple times said red.
> He's not doing legit PvP.
> Exploit exploit!!!!!
 

 

There´s a difference between spamming region chat for players to trade-kill - and by chance stumbling into a player who went afk with his faction uniform on in the faction contested area where your quest actually counts. (but generally, ressing that person over and over to complete your quest is probably something most ppl wont do either)

 

The quest is clearly designed to motivate players into PvP. Rewarding those who do and are able to kill 10 other faction players in PvP.

Finding underhand methods to claim that reward, by not engaging in PvP - how is not taking advantage of a design flaw?

 

It happens in almost all MMOs that has open world pvp - and it´s generally a bannable offence when caught. Why´d you think it´s different here?

 

All the carebears here, that try so hard defending something so obviously an exploit. Instead of giving reasons of justification - try just once, to look at the faction design, the faction quests - and then give a logical explanation how the quest was intended to be completed by pre-planned kill-trade.

 

Here´s what I think. If you don´t like like pvp -stop doing faction quests and get rid of your faction uniform. Let the pvp´ers play pvp and you can go back to your topics about how to beat mushins 8.3 and how unfair you think it is when you´re denied into a party because your AP isn´t 400+ but you really "need" to do naryus 4mans for the costume.

[Lunakitty]

Quote

and by chance stumbling into a player who went afk with his faction uniform on in the faction contested area where your quest actually counts.

People do afk with faction uniform in cities so basically the pvp area is the whole world. Opposite faction members do attack people anywhere in the BnS maps and they don't care if it's in faction pvp area or normal field maps or dungeon lobbies. I have never done the quest so I don't understand if it counts when you kill another player outside the faction areas or where it has to be done but it adds as achievements.

[KustoSan]

10 minutes ago, Victorion said:

It happens in almost all MMOs that has open world pvp - and it´s generally a bannable offence when caught. Why´d you think it´s different here?

 

Being generally a bannable offence when caught, does not mean it is an exploit.

Bannable offences != exploits.

[Victorion]

1 minute ago, Lunakitty said:

People do afk with faction uniform in cities so basically the pvp area is the whole world. Opposite faction members do attack people anywhere in the BnS maps and they don't care if it's in faction pvp area or normal field maps or dungeon lobbies. I have never done the quest so I don't understand if it counts when you kill another player outside the faction areas or where it has to be done but it adds as achievements.

The dailies quest only counts in misty wood kills. So if you kill someone i.e. in the other faction contested area near hogshead hamlet/fishing lodge - they wont count towards that quest.

 

Yes they do count towards the archievement, which is like 10.000 player kills.

[TakunDes]

They mention it on Twitch Kill trading (Quest/ Achievements) aren't banable and is not against ToS since it doesn't rewards you much and is not severe. they would rather spent more time combating bots don't you think than catch a few of these exploiters?

 

 

1:07:29 - "Is kill trading for achievements like blackram and bamboo guard, pvp achievements against terms of service? Nope, just don't automate it."

 

dude that quest gives you like 2 soulstones? so you think it should be punished lol. i get 400 soulstones everyday through just playing Tag since i am a Diamond player

[Victorion]

9 minutes ago, KustoSan said:

 

Being generally a bannable offence when caught, does not mean it is an exploit.

Bannable offences != exploits.

I was unclear. My apologies. Here´s what i left out:

Kill-trading is generally in all major MMO´s considering exploit and is a bannable offence. This is especially true when players use  for their own benefit, to reap undeserved rewards or boosting ranks.

 

@TakunDes

I didn´t see the video, and I am probably not going to, so I´ll go by your word.

I don´t care about 2 soulstones, and I don´t care about 2 tears either. The topic isn´t about justifying the exploit or the consequences of players exploiting.

 

The scenario with Ogong is the same as kill-trade. Both being quest objective where you skip a part by an exploit.

 

Whether or not that guy on twitch don´t consider it a bannable offence or if NCsoft will enforce it. It still classifies as an exploit. And the ToS states exploiting is bannable.

NB. not the first time some guy on twitch said something that turned out to be not true.

 

[TakunDes]

@Victorion

 

well those guys are what you called people in charge of this forum as well as the guys announcing news/ GMs of the game  / people who replied to complains on this forum. EG Hime , Rukkirii , Bubbletron etc.

 

i wouldnt go into any extra details about that since you probably won't listen anyway.

 

the case with Ogong was different. it affects economy as a whole which can affects the whole playerbase. my friend did it over 50+ runs and not banned. they are only banning people who abuse it severely EG 100+ times. 

 

tell me what kind of advantage someone is going to get with 2 soulstones lol. 

 

i know you want to make these things banable, unfortunately you are no the one in charge so in the end its pointless. and they already said so its not a banable offence so yeah just wasting your time mate

[Victorion]

3 minutes ago, TakunDes said:

@Victorion

 

well those guys are what you called people in charge of this forum as well as the guys announcing news/ GMs of the game  / people who replied to complains on this forum. EG Hime , Rukkirii , Bubbletron etc.

 

i wouldnt go into any extra details about that since you probably won't listen anyway.

 

the case with Ogong was different. it affects economy as a whole which can affects the whole playerbase. my friend did it over 50+ runs and not banned. they are only banning people who abuse it severely EG 100+ times. 

 

tell me what kind of advantage someone is going to get with 2 soulstones lol. 

 

i know you want to make these things banable, unfortunately you are no the one in charge so in the end its pointless. and they already said so its not a banable offence so yeah just wasting your time mate

The consequences may have been different - and it may have been as to why NCsoft decided to ban players for Ogong exploit. Both of them are still exploits nevertheless - regardless of the impact.

 

NB. I don´t try to force bans. Personally I just love to have pvp´ers do pvp, and the carebears do their pve. Seeing carebears exploiting to pvp-content is not something I support. Regardless of the impact and consequences it may or may not have.

[TakunDes]

6 minutes ago, Victorion said:

NB. I don´t try to force bans. Personally I just love to have pvp´ers do pvp, and the carebears do their pve. Seeing carebears exploiting to pvp-content is not something I support. Regardless of the impact and consequences it may or may not have.

Good point.  well good luck trying to persuade the guys in charge in NCWest , you gonna need it ;)

[Victorion]

4 minutes ago, TakunDes said:

Good point.  well good luck trying to persuade the guys in charge in NCWest , you gonna need it ;)

I have no ambitions of doing so, I am a realist as well ~

All this is probably just a waste of time. Thanks for keeping a sober tone ^^;;

[Risen Slacker]

Well heres the thing if you analyzed everything you did in game and i mean everything  you would be likely be the owner of a long list of violations and be banned as the rules demand.  The same could be said for daily real life activitys, most likely you would be in jail if you had robocop on your butt 24/7.  Before you say does this apply to this thread yes it does for a simple thing.  Everyone will alter their activitys to their own tastes regardless of whether you like it or not you cant change them and you wont change them unless your NCSOFT.  Does It violate the core principals of Open world pvp yes it does but these quests are the best source of soulstones besides arenas and this is bound to happen when you try jam in hard core pvpers,  ghankers, casuals, and marketplace manipulators into one basket, blame NCSOFT. 

 

FIN

[DaiShogun]

I'll queue in cross server with my Ceru outfit and ask my friend to do the same because he's Crimson. We'll let people waiting for us or let them do the dungeon by themselves while we fight against each other because bloodlust is stronger and more important. Does it make sense? No? That's what I see in this whole discussion. 

[Dexyn]

Guess i'll throw my 2 cents while I'm here.

You can call it an exploit, you can call it being smart, you can call it anything you want but no one is breaking any rules by asking to kill-trade. You may not like it, other people that don't do it may not like it, NCWest may not like it but they are playing by the rules set in the game itself. 

It wasn't intended to be done like this but doesn't make it a ban-worthy offense either. If faction wasn't unbalanced it wouldn't happen as much either but i digress.

If you want to ban people using this supposed exploit because it wasn't intended then you should also ban those who solo 4 and 6 man dungeons for personal gain because obviously it wasn't intended either, or am I wrong?

[Nutrient]

I lose nothing when other players complete this daily by trading kills.

[Victorion]

While all these arguments may be good and maybe even valid ones. They are not answering the topic question.
The question is whether or kill-trade is an exploit.
The way it is used, to skip the quest objective. I am arguing it clearly is.

What I see from the other side, is players who won´t openly admit that is an exploit, but instead go replying with why it is ok.

The question isn´t about justification about the use, it is about the classification of the use.

Read it again...

 

The question isn´t about justification about the use, it is about the classification of the use.

 

[Risen Slacker]

Your still on this?  Your asking a question that involves human and social morals. The subject of many college courses and much more there is no clear answer only personal preferences. Ask NCSOFT if you want a concrete answer and let this thread die.