ShadowRose

A Easy And Free Way To Fix The Bot Problem Is To Hire In Game Volunteer Mods

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Kitah   
2 minutes ago, Fuz said:

You're still talking about volunteer FORUM moderators. And that usually happens.

In game? It will NEVER happen, you have no idea how it will turn out (have you ever played an UOL shard?) giving such power to people who aren't afraid of losing their job.

I'm not going to turn this into an argument if it will or will not work, however there is no difference to any position if you are hiring someone and paying them or not. People are more likely to abuse a free role than a paid one but it doesn't mean all people will. I've come from a social game which hires in-game and forum moderators and the players start off as "helpers" and then get promoted. The people who apply have to provide passport and facial recognition over a social medium such as Skype. NDA's have to be signed, etc. As someone else has said it can potentially become a lawsuit if you abuse your powers.

 

5 minutes ago, Mahabaratbu said:

Guys do you think NCSoft will ban "PREMIUM MEMBER" bots? lol they would rather ban a f2p player. maybe 500,000 thousand are real people the rest are premium BOTS.

Actually in that sense it'd make more sense to ban the premium member who will then come back and most likely buy premium again, the free player isn't hurting you and is most likely bringing in valuable people who will buy premium. 

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Ebrietaz   
7 minutes ago, Fuz said:

You're still talking about volunteer FORUM moderators. And that usually happens.

In game? It will NEVER happen, you have no idea how it will turn out (have you ever played an UOL shard?) giving such power to people who aren't afraid of losing their job.

I am talking about volunteers in general, doesn't matter if it's in-game or not.

YOU stated that volunteers can't be trusted, and I was giving an example that some volunteers CAN be trusted.

 

Limiting what powers they have will help reduce the risk of abuse.

Disconnecting or muting players instead of allowing them to use the ban hammer.

They can report the behavior to the staff so it can be dealt with quicker, etc.

Edited by Ebrietaz

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Moderating a text forum and playing the role of an in-game GM with GM capabilities are completely different things. What you people are describing is an in-game GM, Game Master, not a "moderator." Look up the definition of moderator. It's specific to an "online forum or discussion." Moderators on a forum never have the ability to deny service. The most they can do is delete a post or lock a thread. All bans, temporary or otherwise have to be done by the GM or administrator of a forum/site, and even then I have never seen a forum where mods did not abuse their power, silencing people they didn't like. 

 

This is a terrible idea and should never, ever happen. 

 

People on NCstaff, aka actual GMs should be in game checking bot hotspots (the lake at monkeystone), and monitoring the starter areas. But absolutely no way, never, ever, should "volunteer players" be given any form of power over other volunteer and paying players. You want to volunteer to be good-guy bot-hunter? There's already a mechanic for that. The report button. 

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Meerkat   

Short answer:  "No."

 

Long answer:  "Nnnnnnnnnooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo."

 

And then you can get a sassy black girl to do that head thing while snapping her fingers.

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2 minutes ago, Ebrietaz said:

I am talking about volunteers in general, doesn't matter if it's in-game or not.

YOU stated that volunteers can't be trusted, and I was giving an example that some volunteers CAN be trusted.

 

Limiting what powers they have will help reduce the risk of abuse.

Disconnecting or muting players instead of allowing them to use the ban hammer and reporting it to the staff so it can be dealt with quicker, etc.

 

If I was a moderator I would disconnect and mute you right now because your idea is terrible and you are being rather pig-headed about it. I doubt you would be understanding or appreciative of my choice, though. See how that works?

 

The reason bot reports take so long to be dealt with is because unlike your suggestion NC staff needs actual proof, and to be truly certain that the player character in question is in fact a bot. You are demanding that unstaffed anybodies have the ability to deny service to players based on nothing but their own personal opinion and knee-jerk reactions with zero evidence. 

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Kitah   
2 minutes ago, QueenSheba said:

Moderating a text forum and playing the role of an in-game GM with GM capabilities are completely different things. What you people are describing is an in-game GM, Game Master, not a "moderator." Look up the definition of moderator. It's specific to an "online forum or discussion." Moderators on a forum never have the ability to deny service. The most they can do is delete a post or lock a thread. All bans, temporary or otherwise have to be done by the GM or administrator of a forum/site, and even then I have never seen a forum where mods did not abuse their power, silencing people they didn't like. 

 

This is a terrible idea and should never, ever happen. 

 

People on NCstaff, aka actual GMs should be in game checking bot hotspots (the lake at monkeystone), and monitoring the starter areas. But absolutely no way, never, ever, should "volunteer players" be given any form of power over other volunteer and paying players. You want to volunteer to be good-guy bot-hunter? There's already a mechanic for that. The report button. 

That is why we are discussing in-game moderators and not game masters. They are 2 completley different things like you have mentioned and what we are discussing is somewhat different to take. We do not want to take peoples service away, bot or not but instead have a more advance report system and more people (volunteers) dealing with reports on bots and having to be authorized instead of having the paid members of staff have to go through all of the reports to see which are valid and which aren't on spammers/bots and then deal with them. It is making their service quicker and more reliable by having volunteers be the first line of defence and then anything which requires taking away privileges be done by paid staff which then it cannot be abused. 

 

 

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8 minutes ago, Kitah said:

That is why we are discussing in-game moderators and not game masters. They are 2 completley different things like you have mentioned and what we are discussing is somewhat different to take. We do not want to take peoples service away, bot or not but instead have a more advance report system and more people (volunteers) dealing with reports on bots and having to be authorized instead of having the paid members of staff have to go through all of the reports to see which are valid and which aren't on spammers/bots and then deal with them. It is making their service quicker and more reliable by having volunteers be the first line of defence and then anything which requires taking away privileges be done by paid staff which then it cannot be abused. 

 

 

 

There is no such thing as an in game moderator. Just because you are calling it that does not make it so. 

 

And again, now, watered down, stripped of every idea you presented in this thread, giving these "moderators" no power -- you are describing the report button. Which we already have. 

 

Please stop being dense.

 

Edited by QueenSheba

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21 minutes ago, Fuz said:

You're still talking about volunteer FORUM moderators. And that usually happens.

In game? It will NEVER happen, you have no idea how it will turn out (have you ever played an UOL shard?) giving such power to people who aren't afraid of losing their job.

 

It looks like this UOL you speak of is the only MMORPG you've ever played, because I've seen plenty of other mmorpg with player moderators and forum moderators.

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Kitah   
Just now, QueenSheba said:

 

There is no such thing as an in game moderator. Just because you are calling it that does not make it so. 

A previous game I played had in-game Moderators, which is why I am using the term.

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1 minute ago, Kitah said:

A previous game I played had in-game Moderators, which is why I am using the term.

 

Which game? Private servers don't count. 

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TopKEK   
15 minutes ago, QueenSheba said:

Moderating a text forum and playing the role of an in-game GM with GM capabilities are completely different things. What you people are describing is an in-game GM, Game People on NCstaff, aka actual GMs should be in game checking bot hotspots (the lake at monkeystone), and monitoring the starter areas. But absolutely no way, never, ever, should "volunteer players" be given any form of power over other volunteer and paying players. You want to volunteer to be good-guy bot-hunter? There's already a mechanic for that. The report button. 

From the current way the community is looking, I agree, volunteer GMs for this game isn't worth doing. Especially since majority aren't even mature enough to know how to keep a topic civil. 

 

However that said, volunteer GMs have indeed been done by other companies before. Gameforge being the one who does it mostly. I've seen their volunteer GM system work too actually and it has prevented a number of incidents happen in their games.

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Ebrietaz   
1 minute ago, QueenSheba said:

 

If I was a moderator I would disconnect and mute you right now because your idea is terrible and you are being rather pig-headed about it. I doubt you would be understanding or appreciative of my choice, though. See how that works?

 

The reason bot reports take so long to be dealt with is because unlike your suggestion NC staff needs actual proof, and to be truly certain that the player character in question is in fact a bot. You are demanding that unstaffed anybodies have the ability to deny service to players based on nothing but their own personal opinion and knee-jerk reactions with zero evidence. 

Simply disconnecting them from the server when they can simply log back in, is denying them service?

 

Bots aren't at their computer monitoring every minute to make sure their bot program is working and still connected to the server, otherwise they wouldn't be botting.  Simply having the power to disconnect them from the server will help. If they are botting, they won't notice until they check on their program and game. If they aren't botting, they can just log right back in.

 

A lot of bots are obvious, the gold sellers.

I don't think I would need to do a full investigation if I see someone spamming their gold selling website in chat.

 

 

 

 

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Kitah   
1 minute ago, QueenSheba said:

 

Which game? Private servers don't count. 

I'll even link you to the game I played's moderation application thread. You start off as a helper there, first. http://www.smallworlds.com/forum/threads/673422-Want-to-be-on-the-SmallWorlds-Team-Read-this-Updated-4-16-2015
Yes, it was a website based game, but it still had an in and out of world gameplay. Other people in this thread have also mentioned that Gameforge hires them as-well.

 

I do feel an idea like this may be too soon for the community as the game has only been over here 2 months. But it is an option NCSoft could take just for bots, that is their primary concern right now as it is driving playerbase / potential paying customers away. 

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Fuz   
4 minutes ago, Ebrietaz said:

Simply disconnecting them from the server

Disconnect me during a BW, MM or at the end of a dungeon, and I'll eat your heart out.

You guys really have no idea of the implications of this.
Which are those games you spek of that do have volunteer gms?

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Kitah   
Just now, Fuz said:

Disconnect me during a BW, MM or at the end of a dungeon, and I'll eat your heart out.

You guys really have no idea of the implications of this.
Which are those games you spek of that do have volunteer gms?

I don't agree with allowing volunteers those type of abilities (timers/temp bans), just a front line approach to identify and validate reports on who / who isn't a bot which then gets escalated to their paid staff to make final decision (obviously evidence must be given when handing the case over). 

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Ebrietaz   
Just now, Fuz said:

Disconnect me during a BW, MM or at the end of a dungeon, and I'll eat your heart out.

You guys really have no idea of the implications of this.
Which are those games you spek of that do have volunteer gms?

I would have no reason to, unless I see you constantly spamming a gold selling website.

 

I already mentioned one, and others have mentioned some other companies that recruit volunteer moderators.

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7 minutes ago, Ebrietaz said:

Simply disconnecting them from the server when they can simply log back in, is denying them service?

 

 

YES! It is!

 

Do you see how much complaining occurs when the servers crash? People asking for refunds of premium and such? Your suggestion is only going to result in abuse of power, mistakes made by people who are NOT legitimate, NOT backed by NC Staff/payroll, Not accountable in any way, and who will cause countless legitimate players to be furious with actual NC Soft for allowing it to happen, leading to more tickets, more work for support, to correct the mistakes of these volunteers and dole out reparations to people affected by the fallibility of these volunteers.

 

Honestly this discussion is pointless because your proposal will never happen in a real MMO like this one, as opposed to some junky browser game, no offense. 

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5 minutes ago, Ebrietaz said:

I would have no reason to, unless I see you constantly spamming a gold selling website.

 

I already mentioned one, and others have mentioned some other companies that recruit volunteer moderators.

 

Wait, so are you seriously complaining about the gold-seller spam bots? Because those are pretty insignificant to the overall health of the game. It is the player bots, out in the game world killing monsters and doing arena all day which are actually affecting the game experience of players. The gold-seller-spam-bots literally sit in a town spamming, those are dealt with fast enough already by the staff, and most certainly don't need your help. 

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Ebrietaz   
1 minute ago, QueenSheba said:

 

YES! It is!

 

Do you see how much complaining occurs when the servers crash? People asking for refunds of premium and such? Your suggestion is only going to result in abuse of power, mistakes made by people who are NOT legitimate, NOT backed by NC Staff/payroll, Not accountable in any way, and who will cause countless legitimate players to be furious with actual NC Soft for allowing it to happen, leading to more tickets, more work for support, to correct the mistakes of these volunteers and dole out reparations to people affected by the fallibility of these volunteers.

 

Honestly this discussion is pointless because your proposal will never happen in a real MMO like this one, as opposed to some junky browser game, no offense. 

Being disconnected from the server isn't the same as the server crashing.

Most of the complaining and asking for compensation happens during maintenance, when the servers actually go down.

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TopKEK   
9 minutes ago, Fuz said:

Disconnect me during a BW, MM or at the end of a dungeon, and I'll eat your heart out.

You guys really have no idea of the implications of this.
Which are those games you spek of that do have volunteer gms?

http://board.en.elsword.gameforge.com/board3-news/board10-news-about-the-team/?s=f78f33f2e5742a91dbf17a2ec138513b1acb95bb

 

http://board.en.nostale.gameforge.com/board1-mimi-mentor-s-official-news/board94-staff/

 

http://en.4story.gameforge.com/forum/topiclist/17/1/team

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Kitah   
1 minute ago, QueenSheba said:

 

YES! It is!

 

Do you see how much complaining occurs when the servers crash? People asking for refunds of premium and such? Your suggestion is only going to result in abuse of power, mistakes made by people who are NOT legitimate, NOT backed by NC Staff/payroll, Not accountable in any way, and who will cause countless legitimate players to be furious with actual NC Soft for allowing it to happen, leading to more tickets, more work for support, to correct the mistakes of these volunteers and dole out reparations to people affected by the fallibility of these volunteers.

 

Honestly this discussion is pointless because your proposal will never happen in a real MMO like this one, as opposed to some junky browser game, no offense. 

Totally get you here. It definitely would be denying them service if you kick someone out by mistake or on purpose with no validated proof. 

 

Just going back to what you stated about GM/In-game Moderators. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gamemaster Also means Game Moderator, so they could be classed as the same thing :P

Back onto the topic though, this is just a suggestion much like many others. It could be a temporary solution and then they could get rid of them. 

 

2 minutes ago, QueenSheba said:

 

Wait, so are you seriously complaining about the gold-seller spam bots? Because those are pretty insignificant to the overall health of the game. It is the player bots, out in the game world killing monsters and doing arena all day which are actually affecting the game experience of players. The gold-seller-spam-bots literally sit in a town spamming, those are dealt with fast enough already by the staff, and most certainly don't need your help. 

They could deal with spambots, and report the names to higher ups in a specific chat for GMs that way things can be dealt with quicker / on a wider scale. 

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Ebrietaz   
3 minutes ago, QueenSheba said:

 

Wait, so are you seriously complaining about the gold-seller spam bots? Because those are pretty insignificant to the overall health of the game. It is the player bots, out in the game world killing monsters and doing arena all day which are actually affecting the game experience of players. The gold-seller-spam-bots literally sit in a town spamming, those are dealt with fast enough already by the staff, and most certainly don't need your help. 

That was just an example of botting that i gave out as being obvious botting and wouldn't really require an investigation.

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Dosatron   

There are many games who have volunteers as so called "Ingame moderators" which are simply called "Game Masters".

The company Gameforge uses such a system as an example.

Those GMs have certain ranks and can also ban people. (Even permanently, yes!)

They are just monitored and had to sign a legal contract.

Basically, you need trust and safety in such things. A legal contract is always a good idea with the safety thing.

But so far I haven't seen anyone who would I call "worthy" of such a position in here. No offense.

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TopKEK   

Just for the record, as Dosatron said, Gameforge has created a legal contract for people who become volunteer GMs. That means any breach of it won't just simply mean account terminations, it will literally go to court for it if they breach contract on a certain level.

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Yamyatos   

Against it. Causes more problems than it solves. People are not trustworthy, they will ban when somebody pisses them or beats them in ow-pvp or smth. Cant even be angry... that shit can be frustrating as fck from time to time. And there is no real way for ncsoft to check before "hiring" them.

 

I also doubt that it would fix any problems. I mean, sure the ones in chat could be banned easily. But thats like 2-3 every few hours maybe. The ones causing problems would be the ones in arena, teleporting from quartz to quartz and what else people are reporting. Never saw such a thing (dont play arena tho!). But that would also mean that these Mod's would have to constantly run around and stuff.. doing real work. 

And we would still have the problem of people just wanting the "power over others" which is a real problem. 

 

Against it.

Edit: Let them work out a proper fix, if there is any. They have so many options.. that they dont implement any of them hopefully means that they have something in work. I mean there are many possible solutions posted on the forums, some better than others of course. For the chat spam problem they could also just do some sort of majority ban - that if like 100 people all report the same person over a longer duration of time then he gets blocked from chat for 24 hours. 100 people seems reasonable, longer amount of time against abuse from "rants".

Edited by Yamyatos

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