Why is Ice Build not popular in F8?

[SoulsHunter]

After some advice from fellow FM, I tried using Ice build against Junghado and finally managed to cleared him for the first time (405ap). Before that I have tried auto-detonate build with blazing wall, etc. Tried full burning build using blazing beam with meteor shower, etc. Tried mixed autodetonate with burn. Yet the best I could do was get him to 30% before he went berserk.

 

So now I am confused, it seems that ice build with cold snap, ice rain can really dish out incredible amount of DPS. Yet I have not seen a single FM use it, and there are countless FMs in F8 that I encountered. Why, what am I missing?

[Slyce]

While ice build does a lot of damage burst, burn does more in the long run.

You can make the boss burn 100% of the time with Short Fuse, Inferno and Impact while cold snap is only up 33% of the time.

 

Autodetonate is just bad if you go for burn and you should NEVER spec it in F8 if there is another FM in your party even if you don't use burn build yourself - you'll mess up the damage of other FMs.

 

For solo fights like Junghado, the extra control (chill/freeze) and burst damage of ice makes the fight easier. But in groups if someone else tanks the boss your only concern is dps and then burn always wins over time.
I guess the only exception is if you have 3 FMs coordinating their cold snap so you can have 100% cold snap uptime.

[Zedonia]

Ice build is also more complicated than burn build while dealing less damage. Ice rain looks pretty good but it heavily depends on cold snap and in the meantime your damage sucks hard against fire build. Ist also hard to decide what build is better when you look at very different character stats. You might have Problems with junghado because of your gear and ice will help you more there but as a high geared player who bursts him down in less than 30 seconds you dont need any cc because he will permanently switch between his phases doing almost nothing.

 

Ice build is ok and you can do decent damage with it but only if ...

 

- the target isnt moving nonstop because of cold snap area (wont be a problem in most dungeons)

- you dont have to tank because if you have to iframe right after cold snap use, your damage sucks hard and your burst is down to almost zero

 

As Slyce said: never use auto-detonate. you might think its ok because you dont want the target to burn the whole time but it doesnt help you. Just use the middle tree of LMB no matter what build you use.

[SoulsHunter]

Thank you all for enlightening me about the many factors that affect our dps. I will keep them in mind as I continue to observe and experiment with different builds. I used to avoid auto-detonate like the plague, but I gave up. Even if all FM use burn buff it is still hard to keep up the buff because nobody cares about teamwork, some FM will also use auto-detonate. So I recently start experimenting with the dreaded auto-detonate + burn again. But now I'm more interested in ice rain + cold snap, will be using this more in dungeon and see if I can find good situation to place cold snap more often.

[Torunder]

ice build used to be popular 50/50 vs fire but it got nerfed to the ground therefore nobody uses it now unless you have a ton of skill points and know how and when to use it.

ice rain + frozen target being force blasted (impact s3) + meteor +short fuse+ fireball + lbm+rmb+ DD

and youll never have to worry about losing dps vs full burn fm, due to forceblast dealing the same ammount as beam

but as already stated above, only works on certain enemies that mostly dont shield and / or move constantly, also it needs a better ping than fire since boosted skills are ping dependant and a lot of fm players choose it due to being ping friendly, so it wouldnt make much sence to use ice if your ping sucks

[SoulsHunter]

Now that I think about it, that day was the best ping I experienced. Nowadays no matter how I try I just can't fire off so many ice rain in one cold snap. When will they stabilize ping in mushin tower and arena :(

[Half]

I'm playing PvE frost FM for a long time. I know everything about it and can tell you, no Burning FM (same gear) can do more damage then me ... they just can do same damage and I only count 1 or 2 who did it. And ofcourse - I don't use auto-detonate in groups with burning FMs. Since we can see damage done on 4 men dungeons I got the evidence for it. In fact burning FM and frost FM are similar in damage if people can play well.

 

The 3 best things of ice FM are:

- every other FM can buff you but nobody can debuff you (like auto-detonate against burning FM)

- it's not that boring like burning FM because you can use 3 rotations for different situations

- you're more flexible - you can use hongmoon block ([1] Stage1 Tier5) for some jobs like first boss in nexus (tanking and blocking all saws) without loosing as much damage as  burning FM

 

I'm using this atm: https://beta.bnstree.com/tree/FM?b=B1mOTPqJx

[Zedonia]

Record something using it with the dps meter, pls. Also while you are tanking the boss, for example in citadel. And pls without any other fm in the group. I know you can do good damage with ice but I doubt ice is better than fire. If you can proof it, it's ok.

[Southwind]

10 hours ago, Half said:

I got the evidence for it

Where?

10 hours ago, Half said:

you can use hongmoon block ([1] Stage1 Tier5)

Well, with other FM in pt, which is highly possible, you are detonating embers without applying burn.

[Half]

14 hours ago, Zedonia said:

Record something using it with the dps meter, pls. Also while you are tanking the boss, for example in citadel. And pls without any other fm in the group. I know you can do good damage with ice but I doubt ice is better than fire. If you can proof it, it's ok.

I can't recording anything, because my PC has low FPS and with recording it's nealy impossible to make damage while FPS and ping lags. But I doesn't say ice is better. I said I prefer it and it makes similar damage. But most burning FMs can't play FM well and that's the reason why I'm doing more damage. As example I often see burning debuff on the boss only around 50%.

 

Btw I'm not ready to tank citadel. My FM has 650 AP and in citadel there're often people above 700 AP. So even if I get aggro, I just do a little bit more damage then other guys in party. A 3 seconds cc and boss will switch the target. To avoid cc I have to learn boss pattern a bit more. Also you know there's often a bm who have to tank. I tanked every boss the whole combat except the few ones in the last 2 new dungeons. The DPS bepentents on my concentration. At boss fight like yeti I can loose a huge mount DPS like 40-50% or I just loose 5-10% if I'm playing perfectly - that's less then burning FMs who can't use [1] too burning boss.

5 hours ago, Southwind said:

Where?

I mean DPS meter shows it to me.

5 hours ago, Southwind said:

Well, with other FM in pt, which is highly possible, you are detonating embers without applying burn.

Who cares? I just use it for some few attacks where I have to do and I don't need it for every boss. With another frost FM in party we're using auto-detonate, so np and with burning FM I skilled Flame Palm on stage2, so with crit by my LB and the other FMs LB+2 we're stacking ember nearly instant to 5. So normaly the burning FM shouldn't have any problems.

[Southwind]

12 minutes ago, Half said:

I mean DPS meter shows it to me.

Well, so show it to us if You want people belive You. Only way is to post video.

 

Personally i don't belive ice build can be even close to burn build with dps in endgame fights (both proper rotations, same gear), where boss won't stay in one place and there is a lot of mechanics. For example how long Zakhan will stay on Your cold snap? : ]

[Zedonia]

6 hours ago, Half said:

I said I prefer it and it makes similar damage. But most burning FMs can't play FM well and that's the reason why I'm doing more damage. As example I often see burning debuff on the boss only around 50%.

Then you have to make that clear. I can deal more damage with ice than other fms if they play bad but that doesnt mean ice build is good. If you prefer it, ok, no problem with that. The answer to the topics question was already given anyway:

On 10.10.2016 at 7:36 PM, Zedonia said:

Ice build is also more complicated than burn build while dealing less damage.

 

[Half]

@Southwind:

I would like to create videos, but I can't. I already wrote that my PC lags by hardware while recording.

 

Zakhan often stay 30s in my snap. ;) Most times I get marker, so I start to burst befor we go in stealth and after 10-15s later SB by WL. Ofc Zakhan wouldn't stay longer in snap then 30s-35s, sometimes i reach only around 25s. Timing is very important for frost

 

@Zedonia:

I said burning = frost and not burning > frost and also not burning < frost. I only write about if you play burning and frost build perfectly. Also ice is not more complicated, it's more complex. That's a difference. For me ice is easier to play, because it's more complex and I have more options how to fight. For other people burning build is easier.

[Southwind]

14 hours ago, Half said:

I would like to create videos, but I can't. I already wrote that my PC lags by hardware while recording.

Make video with your phone then. Sorry but i won't ever belive You are making same dps on frost build (especially on zakhan) as skilled same geared burn FM. 

[hyperbolicj]

I personally only swap to ice build on F8 when there's another FM in my party that is using auto detonate ember LMB, or actively is unhelpful and blows ember stacks early. Both are absolutely cancer, and unfortunately common when you queue a bunch of randoms.

[Mirryn]

Well, in past patches, Ice was more capable at self-healing while maintaining damage...

 

But now Burn build heals for similar amounts to Frost Fury spam while doing quite a bit more damage...

(and Fire build takes the cake for WL in party or AOE requiring situations)

 

So in my mind, the only thing left for Ice build to shine at is reduced threat play - if you have some non-tank class tanking, and want to keep it that way, Ice build can help you do that while putting out more damage due to a higher threat ceiling (assuming you can still do more damage than said non-tank)...

 

otherwise... why bother?

 

[Half]

Ahh what? Ice do less threat? Ice build has no threat reduce. On ice you use RMB stage 1 tier 2.

 

Burning build heals similar to ice? Ok let's calc:

1 Blazing Beam do around 15k dmg crit (for example). 5% heal of 15k dmg points are 750 heal points additional 1 time life leech procc by gems.

1 Frost Fury do  around 6,6k dmg crit. 60% heal (on crit) of 6,6k dmg points are 3940 heal points additional 3 times life leech procc by gems.

1 Frost Fury do around 3k dmg non crit. 30% heal of 3k dmg points are 900 heal points.

1 Ice Rain do around 11,5k dmg crit. 5% heal of 11,5k dmg points are 575 heal points additional 1 time life leech procc by gems. But on Ice Rain you have multiple hits per second.

 

It doesn't care if Frost Fury crits or even not - it makes more heal then Blazing Beam even with critical hit. Only with life leech stones you can reach more heal with critical Blazing Beam then non crit by Frost Fury. Ice Rain can hit up to 4 times per second and heals more then Blazing Beam too. Only Force Blast stage 4 heals nothing, but you don't use it while u need some heal.

[SheeOri]

On 24/10/2016 at 8:33 PM, Half said:

I mean DPS meter shows it to me.

Hmm... I've tried ice build but it has significantly less dmg than burn build (maybe because I'm not used to the rotations). Plus I've seen several ice FMs in dungeons and I seem to be doing more damage even though they have more AP (the dismal number of ice fm that creates the sample size isn't probably enough to make a judgement). I'm not in any way a good fm and I'm sure they are around the skill level as me.  Not doubting you or discrediting the ice build but maybe you could show us your dps meter (maybe just a screenshot of the dmg of the skills since taking a video poses a problem).

[Southwind]

On 2.11.2016 at 4:03 AM, Half said:

Ahh what? Ice do less threat? Ice build has no threat reduce. On ice you use RMB stage 1 tier 2.

 

Burning build heals similar to ice? Ok let's calc:

1 Blazing Beam do around 15k dmg crit (for example). 5% heal of 15k dmg points are 750 heal points additional 1 time life leech procc by gems.

1 Frost Fury do  around 6,6k dmg crit. 60% heal (on crit) of 6,6k dmg points are 3940 heal points additional 3 times life leech procc by gems.

1 Frost Fury do around 3k dmg non crit. 30% heal of 3k dmg points are 900 heal points.

1 Ice Rain do around 11,5k dmg crit. 5% heal of 11,5k dmg points are 575 heal points additional 1 time life leech procc by gems. But on Ice Rain you have multiple hits per second.

 

It doesn't care if Frost Fury crits or even not - it makes more heal then Blazing Beam even with critical hit. Only with life leech stones you can reach more heal with critical Blazing Beam then non crit by Frost Fury. Ice Rain can hit up to 4 times per second and heals more then Blazing Beam too. Only Force Blast stage 4 heals nothing, but you don't use it while u need some heal.

But you know of course you can use frost furry T3S3 whenever you want on burning build right? I spec T3S3 ff by default, and i use it when i need to heal up a little bit or make frost orbs for DD. So You can heal up more on burning build in fact. 

[Mirryn]

You can't spam Frost Fury... you have to alternate with Dragonfrost every other GCD...

 

To that end, Frost Fury is going to put out at most maybe double the healing of Blazing Beam over time, and that's being pretty generous.

(but at a pretty serious DPS loss...)

 

hard numbers:

Blazing Beam: 6+4 AP * 5% = 0.5 AP healed per cast = 0.5 AP per GCD

Frost Fury: 4.5 * 30% / 60% = 1.35 AP / 2.7 AP healed per cast = 0.675 AP / 1.35 AP per GCD

 

 

And while I'm aware that the "normal" Ice build doesn't include reduced threat ... that doesn't mean you can't include it...

(and including it is honestly the only particularly compelling reason I can come up with for speccing Frost, but that's me...)

[Half]

@SheeOri:

I will do.

 

@Southwind:

You're right. I just forgot that burning build can use it too. ^^ Anyway, frost build has Ice Rain too and that's an awesome heal aswell. With Awakened Ice Rain it heals you 1-100 in few seconds. No other skill can do that. Also frost build has 10% extra damage. Also DPS loose is less for frost build because you will use it between your burst (ice rain) and frost does less damage then burning build between bursts.

 

@Mirryn:

That Frost Fury is a DPS loose ... ofc. But what would you do if you have 50% hp and boss aggro? Spamming Blazing Beam to get that low heal? Even if you can use Blazing Beam twice while Frost Fury just one time - Frost Fury heals more. In a real situation it heals about 10% hp per critical use (~7k hp). The numbers I wrote down are tested on dummy with pvp soulshield. On real pve you have above 60% crit chance and more then 220% crit damage. That's a huge buff for Frost Fury.

 

Also I can't include reduced thread, because I need to freeze the enemies to get additional damage by Force Blast. That means your RMB is skilled on T2S1. And btw: Burning build is using RMB T3S2 and just need one single skill point to get thread reduce. Impossible for frost build. All other "not normal" frost builds do less damage (and so they're definetly worse then burning build).

[Zedonia]

4 hours ago, Half said:

But what would you do if you have 50% hp and boss aggro?

Ice tab -> 30% healing or use a potion of course.^^ No to be honest, I dont see the point in discussing pve healing that much because there are almost no enemies where a FM should have trouble with. Only zakhan may hit you sometimes but potion and ice tab is more than enough. The rest comes from natural healing, amethyst and beam (if specced). I never face any problems with my life in pve no matter if I tank or not.

[SoulsHunter]

Personally I have trouble healing when dealing with junghado, not to mention dps loss while dealing with his movesets using fire build. Thus the ice rain burst was really awesome when fighting him. And to clarify I don't use all 3 cold snap at once. I only use them when there is a good chance for me to fire off ice rain. Thus my cold snap is usually not on cooldown. During other times when cold snap is not used, frost fury really helps in healing while dragon frost deals good damage. Dragon frost may not be the best but ice rain burst is good enough to cover it. At that time ice rain does not have the healing buff. I basically healed with frost fury so that i can use frost armor to defend his op moves instead.

[Mirryn]

When I have 50% hp and boss aggro... that's exactly what I do, spam Blazing Beam and tank the boss...

(ie walk in-and-out around attacks to keep boss stationary, iframe if necessary, veil+badged ice tab if things are looking really bleak)

 

And the threat reduction from T4S2 RMB is only significant if you also have Frozen Soul specced, otherwise it's pretty useless as it's negating just 1 AP per RMB of threat.

 

 

As an FM I generally expect to tank in a random group... it wasn't ever a problem before Blazing Beam healed to tank with Burn build... now it's that much easier.

 

 

Also, nothing heals like Awakened Ice Rain huh?  Awakened Dragonchar S1 will do it nigh instantly, the heck with a few seconds...

(11+4+1 AP, 4x10m AoE, for Awakened Dragonchar vs 7.2+4, Single Target, for Ice Rain ...)

[Southwind]

14 hours ago, Half said:

You're right. I just forgot that burning build can use it too. ^^ Anyway, frost build has Ice Rain too and that's an awesome heal aswell. With Awakened Ice Rain it heals you 1-100 in few seconds. No other skill can do that. Also frost build has 10% extra damage. Also DPS loose is less for frost build because you will use it between your burst (ice rain) and frost does less damage then burning build between bursts.

First of all, why do You even need heal as FM on PVE? I barely use it on endgame dungeons, and now when heal is on our "2" i don't use potions anymore. 

 

And 10% more on frozen skills only with coldsnap range, so with mobile bosses it is nearly nothing. 

 

Overall pve burn build eats frost pve build on breakfast in almost every situations.