Current class numbers in gold+ disgust me

[StarTailZz]

kuro1n this wasnt about the numbers i understood them and im able to read. Eventho this is just about my own thoughts against frost fms because im rooted all the time. This ain´t about the numbers just my feelings.

[nahoot]

trash game, 80% of the players i fight in silver-gold are summoners! nice E-Sports maybe - def not

[Roxefeller]

11 hours ago, Sieghlyon said:

the three best class are no surprise , blade cancer , scummoner and destro spin2win .

i am surprised than assassin are se little represented .

In NO way, whatsoever are those 3 classes the "best" classes. They are the easiest classes to play. Nothing more, nothing less.

[Marro]

In my Opinion the class numbers in gold+ are in direct relation to the high ping(200ms+) issue in arena.
Which are the best 3 classes to play with high ping?

1. Summoner

2. destroyer

3. blade dancer

 

Which are the worst?
1. KFM

2. Assassin

So whats happening?
It's simple many player especially KFM's and Sin's are rerolling so that they can still play arena,

because you cant even perform your combo with lag spikes and 1/2s delays.
The players who dont like to reroll just dont do arena anymore like myself (or even famous ones like Shiro).
The result is that Sum, Destro, and LBM are popular right now because you can perform good with them even if your ping sucks.
If NCSoft would FIX the ping issue they would kill two birds with one stone but there is still no reply.

[Shuchin]

maybe wasted because this discussion is too emotionally laden, but absolute numbers are a biased indicator because they ignore the fact that the total amount of players of given class can be different. Specifically, the total amount of players of a given class that actively do arena. Better data would be to give gold/silver number ratios, as they would show a normalised value.

Later on, it would also be much preferable to calculate a (diamond + platinum) / (gold + silver) ratio. That would be a good indication of a classes maximum strength, as opposed to its ease of learning curve.

[PsyFu]

Summoners are really pissing me off this patch. Was very excited about some balance but it's obviously not the case.

[Roxefeller]

1 minute ago, PsyFu said:

Summoners are really pissing me off this patch. Was very excited about some balance but it's obviously not the case.

Everything is quite balanced. You as a player however will not be balanced by patches. This is something you must do yourself. Practice and get better. Simple. Don't blame it on balance or lack thereof.

[Kutsuu]

Regardless of how balance actually stands for competent players, these forums/reddit/etc have stigmatized certain classes and put others on an altar. What I see in these statistics is that the majority of our playerbase are FOTMers who have followed the trends and rerolled - which is status quo for NA MMO players. Again, the numbers don't necessarily denote balance as much as they denote trends among the majority of players who only play what they believe are the "strongest" classes.

 

That's not to say that BM/FM are equally as strong as the 3 most played classes, but they are not as weak as it's made out to be. The simple fact is that regardless of how well they are balanced, the majority of players just aren't playing them due to what I mentioned above.

 

To be as clear as possible - trying to measure balance based on these numbers does not work. You would have to assume that there are an equal amount of each class TRYING to make it into gold for these numbers to tell you something about balance. 

 

Also to be noted is the fact that the new content just released. Nobody has their new HM skill yet and nobody is HM5. BM, at least, gains a much needed burst damage ability and a much needed well-rounded build with HM Lightning Draw and 11 extra skill points. This doesn't make them magically easier to play, and it doesn't mean they will suddenly be a popular class because let's face it, most BMs rerolled in order to FOTM something else. 

[Nebuchadnezzar]

46 minutes ago, Marro said:

In my Opinion the class numbers in gold+ are in direct relation to the high ping(200ms+) issue in arena.
Which are the best 3 classes to play with high ping?

1. Summoner

2. destroyer

3. blade dancer

 

Which are the worst?
1. KFM

2. Assassin

So whats happening?
It's simple many player especially KFM's and Sin's are rerolling so that they can still play arena,

because you cant even perform your combo with lag spikes and 1/2s delays.
The players who dont like to reroll just dont do arena anymore like myself (or even famous ones like Shiro).
The result is that Sum, Destro, and LBM are popular right now because you can perform good with them even if your ping sucks.
If NCSoft would FIX the ping issue they would kill two birds with one stone but there is still no reply.

 

No, you are retarded.

[Jenocide]

4 hours ago, Zakaru said:

Have you actually seen a lot of hackers in game or just the videos?  I've played over 700 games and haven't seen a single hacker yet.

 

I've actually lost count to be honest.  I stopped arena because of it and thought that that would be the end of it, but nope, there was one on the Crimson side in their camp, just non-stop hovering and being immune to a WHOLE crowd of blues.  So not in videos, in game.

[kuro1n]

As there has been some interest I will continue to create this data, next patch tonight or on friday and should include plat plat+ ranking.

[Vecejj]

Pretty much on the verge of not even doing PvP anymore atm, fed up of fighting some stupid cat.

 

This one summoner I actually managed to get down to like 5% hp, he pops petal storm and starts ressing hit cat and since I only had 2 aoe's on my FM he resisted everything else, stuns, dazes, phantom grip and resses his cat, he then instantly pops back to around 70% hp....

 

Balanced.

[Cogbyrn]

If only data analysis was something they taught better in schools, maybe people would be able to question numbers instead of draw the conclusions they want to draw and use it as the crumbly foundation of their argument.

[Vecejj]

13 minutes ago, Cogbyrn said:

If only data analysis was something they taught better in schools, maybe people would be able to question numbers instead of draw the conclusions they want to draw and use it as the crumbly foundation of their argument.

LOL go away, you've been proven wrong defending summoners to the end of the earth the last few weeks, now NCsoft have even provided FACTS to prove they're strong and you still disregard it! 

 

More people play summoner that's totally why they're the highest % of gold ranking in PvP, where is your FACT that summoners are that much more played in Blade and soul?

[Cogbyrn]

46 minutes ago, Vecejj said:

LOL go away, you've been proven wrong defending summoners to the end of the earth the last few weeks, now NCsoft have even provided FACTS to prove they're strong and you still disregard it! 

 

More people play summoner that's totally why they're the highest % of gold ranking in PvP, where is your FACT that summoners are that much more played in Blade and soul?

 

If you've convinced yourself something is true, it doesn't make it actually true.

 

1.  I've said I think Summoners are easier to play and therefore do better in lower ranks.  I never said they weren't strong.  I think they *are* strong.  I just don't think they're OP.

 

2.  What facts has NCSoft provided to prove they're strong?  And do you even need NCSoft to tell you Summoners are strong?

 

3.  Where is this data coming from?  Can we query Bronze+ or Silver+ to get a better sense of total population?  If not, you don't even have that data point, so you don't have the whole picture.  Without the whole picture, any conclusions you draw are tenuous at best.  If you're going to say Summoner numbers in Gold+ are some sort of proof they are OP, then you have to understand what % of people are playing the class in the arena as a baseline.  Even then, you're gauging Gold+ without comparing to Plat+ or Diamond+ to see how things progress.

 

4.  Lol @ wanting someone who has a dissenting opinion to go away because you just want to gossip imbalance with your forum sewing circle.  Wouldn't it be unfortunate to actually have to discuss your ideas and really vet them out?  Better to just jump to an emotional conclusion and yell it as loudly as possible to make it true.

[Malix]

4 hours ago, Marro said:

In my Opinion the class numbers in gold+ are in direct relation to the high ping(200ms+) issue in arena.
Which are the best 3 classes to play with high ping?

1. Summoner

2. destroyer

3. blade dancer

 

Which are the worst?
1. KFM

2. Assassin

So whats happening?
It's simple many player especially KFM's and Sin's are rerolling so that they can still play arena,

because you cant even perform your combo with lag spikes and 1/2s delays.
The players who dont like to reroll just dont do arena anymore like myself (or even famous ones like Shiro).
The result is that Sum, Destro, and LBM are popular right now because you can perform good with them even if your ping sucks.
If NCSoft would FIX the ping issue they would kill two birds with one stone but there is still no reply.

Definitely not because of ping beat BM and FM are both better to play with high ping and they aren't nearly as high.

[Michieltjuhh]

2 hours ago, Cogbyrn said:

If only data analysis was something they taught better in schools, maybe people would be able to question numbers instead of draw the conclusions they want to draw and use it as the crumbly foundation of their argument.

From the data we have we can conclude that Summoners are overpowered. If you like to THINK that most of the PvP playerbase "simply plays Summoner" you're free to, but keep your assumptions to assumptions. Facts have been given by NCSoft and facts are what count. Edit: Mind you, I think Blade Dancers are incredibly overpowered aswell. It's not like I have a vendetta against Summoners.

EU Stats atm.:
Summoner: 786
Blade Dancer: 484
Destroyer: 347
Assassin: 242
Kung Fu Master: 218
Force Master: 128
Blade Master: 82

Nothing's changed.

[Cogbyrn]

25 minutes ago, Michieltjuhh said:

From the data we have we can conclude that Summoners are overpowered. If you like to THINK that most of the PvP playerbase "simply plays Summoner" you're free to, but keep your assumptions to assumptions. Facts have been given by NCSoft and facts are what count. Edit: Mind you, I think Blade Dancers are incredibly overpowered aswell. It's not like I have a vendetta against Summoners.

EU Stats atm.:
Summoner: 786
Blade Dancer: 484
Destroyer: 347
Assassin: 242
Kung Fu Master: 218
Force Master: 128
Blade Master: 82

Nothing's changed.

 

Forming conclusions on incomplete data is as ignorant as forming conclusions on no data.  You have no other context in which to view the data, so you make up something you can feel good about.  You think both Blade Dancers and Summoners are overpowered (based on "I think Blade Dancers are incredibly overpowered *as well*"), so the fact that their percent representation in Gold+ is so high can only be attributed to their overpoweredness.  It couldn't be anything else, could it?  Open and shut case, verdict:  OP.

 

In the "Is PvP actually unbalanced?" thread, he demonstrates that 2.2% of those Summoners in Gold+ are in the Top 50.  Meanwhile, 2.8% of the FMs in Gold+ are in the Top 50.  The percentages of players in Gold+ making it to the upper echelon are fairly equivalent, with KFM coming up at 5.71% of those players in Gold+ making it to Top 50.

 

So what does that say about balance, given a scenario in which people have a higher chance of knowing more about the game than those at low Gold?

 

And the age old question:  should they really try to tweak balance based on those playing at a much lower level/not understanding nearly as much about the game?  I personally don't think they should.  People are basically saying "I don't really want to try to get much better, I don't care to know much about the other classes, and I can't be bothered to practice, but I want the game to be 'balanced' at my level".  At that point I don't even know what 'balance' means to them.

[Michieltjuhh]

Top 50 atm. is:
18 Summoners
8 Kung Fu Masters
8 Blade Dancers
6 Assassins
4 Destroyers
4 Blade Masters
2 Force Masters

If there was only a single Force Master in gold+ and he'd be in the top 50 that would mean 100% of the Force Masters in gold were in the top 50. That doesn't mean that Force Master is suddenly balanced. That means this player is most likely vastly superior to others at the same rating and is capable of beating the stronger classes as long as the opponent is simply a worse player.

I also base my verdict on my personal experience combined with statistics and general knowledge of the game. I am one of the few Blade Masters above 1600 and I'm not exactly calling Assassin overpowered eventhough it's my worst matchup simply because I know they get countered by others and eventhough rock paper scissors is a terrible system for a game like this, it is what it is. That's just an example where Blade Masters need buffs, not where Assassins need nerfs, considering Blade Masters are weak against everything else too except Force Masters.

[Fuzaki]

Destroyer least played class, right...

 

Also, no surprise there in terms of distribution; it's almost exactly like how I imagined it. Seems like the recent patch didn't do anything in terms of general balance. Probably made it worse.

 

Don't know how the new patch will affect PvE, but IMO, Destroyers and Summoners are top in there as well.

[HoleintheWall]

So I agree that there is no over powered class right now.

 

I do not agree that this game is balanced. It's nowhere near balanced at all.

 

All you statistical people must not have taken psychology as its pretty obvious people much rather take the short, easy route to go about things. So when looking at the data it's pretty clear people are taking the easier route to pvp by playing these classes that are very easy to use and have an edge over the other classes in pvp.

 

The simple fact that a class is so easy to use that it allows a huge majority of people reach top ranks, dominating the leaderboards, makes it evident that it is not balanced. If you stop and actually think about it, this is irrefutable.

 

Game is not balanced and will never enter E Sports in its current state.

 

I am incredibly salty at NCSoft for this. They had so much damn time to perfect their system and make the game into something huge in NA and EU.

 

Damn

[Asildriez]

11 hours ago, StarTailZz said:

Am i the only one who thinks fm is much harder to deal with then summoner and assassin ? I lost every assa game except 2 and i won 60% vs summoners i won 0% vs FM tho xD Maybe im just bad haha. Im playing KFM btw. But maybe its just harder for other classes to deal vs summoners and the Matchup itself is just frustrating and takes long but i dont think they are really "op"

FM is the hard counter to KFM so its not surprising that is what you are having trouble with. It is one of the hardest matchups out there for sure.

[HoleintheWall]

I forgot to mention... This game is way too reliant on fps and ping.

 

With NCSofts current rubbish optimization for both their network and game, fps and pings are currently not stable.

 

Another reason this game is not balanced and will never enter E Sports in its current state.

 

Damn again

[ymko]

Summoner not op guys, I did 12 wins in a row(3 of them vs KFM's that did really freaking great and it's a shame i won) meeting 0 summoners, then i lost to 1 assasin, 1 bd and 7 summoners ;) 

But summoners are fine, balanced and has no problem with healing full hp in a matter of seconds ;) 

[Cogbyrn]

33 minutes ago, Michieltjuhh said:

Top 50 atm. is:
18 Summoners
8 Kung Fu Masters
8 Blade Dancers
6 Assassins
4 Destroyers
4 Blade Masters
2 Force Masters

If there was only a single Force Master in gold+ and he'd be in the top 50 that would mean 100% of the Force Masters in gold were in the top 50. That doesn't mean that Force Master is suddenly balanced. That means this player is most likely vastly superior to others at the same rating and is capable of beating the stronger classes as long as the opponent is simply a worse player.

I also base my verdict on my personal experience combined with statistics and general knowledge of the game. I am one of the few Blade Masters above 1600 and I'm not exactly calling Assassin overpowered eventhough it's my worst matchup simply because I know they get countered by others and eventhough rock paper scissors is a terrible system for a game like this, it is what it is. That's just an example where Blade Masters need buffs, not where Assassins need nerfs, considering Blade Masters are weak against everything else too except Force Masters.

 

I'm surprised you didn't argue "If there were 1 billion summoners in Gold+, but only 1 million in the top 50, then it means only .1% of summoners made it to the top 50.  Does that mean they aren't OP?"  Here:

 

A straw man is a common form of argument and is an informal fallacy based on giving the impression of refuting an opponent's argument, while actually refuting an argument which was not advanced by that opponent.^[1]

The so-called typical "attacking a straw man" argument creates the illusion of having completely refuted or defeated an opponent's proposition by covertly replacing it with a different proposition (i.e., "stand up a straw man") and then to refute or defeat that false argument ("knock down a straw man") instead of the original proposition.

 

That's what you did.

 

Also, I'll go along with your proposition anyway.  Suppose 1 FM is in Gold+, and he made it to Top 50.  What does that say about all the other FM?  How many other FM are attempting to make it into Gold+?  Is he the only guy who cares about the class?  Does it mean no one knows anything about FM because the only time they play one, it's him, and they get no exposure?

 

I don't know what statistics you're bringing to the table, because all you're doing is spouting more raw numbers with no context.