compensating for advanced players' bias to improve faster by only running w/other advanced

[Nicolee]

On 1/3/2023 at 4:54 AM, Grimoir said:

 

 

Everyone is free top do dungeons and runs with whoever they want. If you do not meet requirements for some groups, too bad for you.

Is that the Hongmoon way?

 

On 1/3/2023 at 4:54 AM, Grimoir said:

 

The only thing keeping less-advanced players from dungeons is their own laziness to create their own groups, with players of their own level.

Nope -- they die if they have no higher level people in the group.

 

On 1/3/2023 at 4:54 AM, Grimoir said:

You are sounding a bit entitled saying you should get better rewards without even progressing or trying.

You sound entitled having been in the game from the beginning being so considerate to help others, but especially that you should always be on top -- that you should always start above new people and never start even.

 

So no, I don't necessarily say lower-level players should get better rewards -- just that hi-level players have their benefits reset to be even with less-experienced players.  Parity is the key -- not one group making all the adjustment.

 

On 1/3/2023 at 4:54 AM, Grimoir said:

 

 

Edited January 7, 2023 by Nicolee

[MishaJ]

41 minutes ago, Nicolee said:

Is that the Hongmoon way?

 

Nope -- they die if they have no higher level people in the group.

 

You sound entitled having been in the game from the beginning being so considerate to help others, but especially that you should always be on top -- that you should always start above new people and never start even.

 

So no, I don't necessarily say lower-level players should get better rewards -- just that hi-level players have their benefits reset to be even with less-experienced players.  Parity is the key -- not one group making all the adjustment.

 

 

The issue vet players have is that new players come to forums and complain that content is too hard and ask for nerfs on content. new players always try and get content nerfed in difficulty and etc and ruin the challenge for more geared players. they also complain about loot feeling cheap for lower levels and etc too. end game/veteran players crave challenge but they wanna be rewarded for that challenge. they aren't intentionally trying to exclude anyone they just wanna challenge content with like geared people.

[Hungibungi]

I returned when the Musician class got introduced to the game, I got the starter pack as well and I play on Eu.
I played easy mode & stage 1 dungeons until I had a perf stat easy mode ss set with the crit primers and had starcross rings & earrings at +11 and my skystealer accs at +6. Before I had these, I got thrown out of st5 groups all the time and no one joined my groups. Once I had decent stats tho (aka had the things listed above), I was able to join st5 groups easily and people join mine as well 🙂 It only takes 2 maybe 3 weeks to get all of those (now there's no starter pack, but you have starcross gloves & necklaces in easy mode so that should offset you not having skystealer bracelet and belt) if you play 2-3 hours a day; and you can find groups almost instantly in F8 as well.
I see a lot of players join my groups with less than 4k boss attack power and almost 0 crit (not to mention that they say 'yes' to 'can you grab?' yet don't even try to grab), so I think that's where the issue comes from. Sure, it is possible to do stage 5 with 4k bap players, BUT if they don't have crit and they have un-upgraded accessories how are we supposed to believe that they are ready for stage 5 gameknowledge-wise?
On 1 side: they don't know what they are supposed to do as easy mode & stage 1 is really easy, but no one takes them to stage5 (which would be the next step up); and I heard that F8 is dead on NA(?) so that's another problem + even if 4 newbies get in a group, they will most likely fail and blame vets for not carrying them
On the other side: they join groups that want either a grabber (usually stat doesn't matter as long as they can grab and survive) or high dps; yet they can't do either
There will never be a solution to this, as far as I know it's like this in every mmorpg. The only way I can see this improve if there would be a better in-game guide that would force players to do every kind of upgrade once (like making an accessory +1, fusing soulshields, unity stone fusing etc) with some extra details to why they need to do this... But then they would start complaining about a bad tutorial that forces them to do stuff (I hate them as well, but they do work at making people remember things more, so...) + if they use a grabbing class, I think the game never tells them how to do double cc (or what stun/kd/daze is) or to even grab (could be wrong tho)

[Grimoir]

10 hours ago, Nicolee said:

Is that the Hongmoon way?

Hongmoon way or not, everyone has a FREE CHOICE to do the content they want with players they want, you have absolutely no right telling someone he has to take you or run it with you.

 

10 hours ago, Nicolee said:

Nope -- they die if they have no higher level people in the group.

If they die then either you either take very undergeared people with you or you do not understand the mechanics in the dungeon , because every stage has mechanics, and if you do not do them, you can take huge damage or die. Yet another reason why no one would take you to more advanced dungeons because if you do not know the mechanics you essentially kill the entire group.

 

10 hours ago, Nicolee said:

You sound entitled having been in the game from the beginning being so considerate to help others, but especially that you should always be on top -- that you should always start above new people and never start even.

 

So no, I don't necessarily say lower-level players should get better rewards -- just that hi-level players have their benefits reset to be even with less-experienced players.  Parity is the key -- not one group making all the adjustment.

 

This has nothing to do with consideration. You are literally trying to force people to take you to higher level dungeons, that is not how the game works.

If someone wants to help, they will help, if someone doesnt want to, they will not. You are not in any position to tell someone what they can or cannot do.

Everyone plays the game how they want to, you may not like it but it is their choice. I would NEVER take someone that is undergeared into a more advanced dungeon if they do not know mechanics, or cant even survive and contribute, because that is just wasting time that I could be investing into doing runs with a group i always do so we can farm the materials we need to upgrade.

You want lesser players to be even with high geared ones, that is extremely selfish because that would in an instant delete all the work people did to progress and gear up and give you free shortcuts.

 

I do not want to sound mean but you simply have no right to tell someone or to expect anyone to take you anywhere. If they do that is them being nice and a courtesy of them, it is not something you should expect or even demand. Advanced players have things they need to do in game aswel, they also have limited time to do the things. You can ask if someone is willing to help you with something, because all of us pretty much do that, but it will not be taking you through something high-level where personal damage, mechanics and time are a factor in clearing it decently and you would be a liability.

 

I didnt see it mentioned anywhere, but can you list specifically what gear is it you have troubles obtaining? Ring earring weapon, etc?Skystealer / Starcross / Oculus?

Edited January 7, 2023 by Grimoir

[Grimoir]

11 hours ago, luzt said:

 

You can't buy Upsurge Psyche, Dayspring Psyche, Dissension Psyche with Ranking tokens.

Also future weapon will require True upsurge to succession into it.

So if you aren't gonna get it, then upgrading Upsurge is in the end wasted resources

because upgrading the new weapon from scratch is cheaper.

 

 

And you made up some numbers in your head. I didnt provide numbers.

Thats why I want you to imagine a way that makes doing the higher stages always more beneficial.

If stage 6 gives double or triple the tokens of 5 and on top of that something like: the first 25 runs of any stage gives double the rewards.

There would already be an incentive to do them aside from just for ranking.

Tweak the numbers till running 5 over and over is not the best thing to do compared to doing higher stages, but its an option if you like braindead grinding .

Like farming s1 for accessories isnt that great vs farming s5 currently (in altar)

 

Some psyches are always only dungeons drop for a certain time. The ones you cna get with tokens are more than enough for those that are not min-maxing.

Even if stage 6+ gave say more tokens, you are still dependable on 3 other people to clear it, not to mention it takes time, in most cases it would still be more efficient to spam a lower stage by yourself because you can do that at any time vs waiting to make a group.

 

Farming for accessories is a different story because that is all rng dependant, and even on stage 1 the drop rates are fairly decent.

[Immunity]

2 hours ago, Grimoir said:

I would NEVER take someone that is undergeared into a more advanced dungeon if they do not know mechanics, or cant even survive and contribute, because that is just wasting time that I could be investing into doing runs with a group i always do so we can farm the materials we need to upgrade.

You want lesser players to be even with high geared ones, that is extremely selfish because that would in an instant delete all the work people did to progress and gear up and give you free shortcuts.

so you yourself need strong players to help you?

 

if a player has better/advanced equipment, this can mean various things:

1) you spent money: skipped the time required to get it (any purchase which is more than cosmetic)

2) you worked hard: spent the time required to get it

3) you played for long time: got much free/weekly stuff, got multiple alts

4) you got lucky with people from above categories who helped you

and of course you will not fall into only one category. (i am in category 3 and a bit of 4)

 

your reward for reaching that better equipment:

- you clear the content faster

- you can help the others with worse equipment

- you get access to exclusive content (<- this is the thing that is criticized, but soul boost helps to remedy it a bit)

 

unfortunately this exclusivity is the main goal of many players and they want to gatekeep it.

like telling it "would delete all the work".

no, your work is not deleted. but now you have more people who can help you clear content faster.

you just cant feel superior any more.

[Grimoir]

1 hour ago, Immunity said:

unfortunately this exclusivity is the main goal of many players and they want to gatekeep it.

like telling it "would delete all the work".

no, your work is not deleted. but now you have more people who can help you clear content faster.

you just cant feel superior any more.

 

Its not about superiority because that means nothing. Its a matter of putting the work into it. Do not get me wrong I do help lesser geared players from time to time, and help if they ask for content thats around their level. Anything thats more advanced I would not take them.A lot of them do not even bother to know the simplest mechanics, what to do, what to avoid and they simply die.

They do not organize their own groups and just sit there complaining the geared players do not want to run with them.

I am luckily able to join some higher dungeon runs, but not the highest as i do not Output as much as would be expected.

 

A few times I even tried to explain the simple thing and got called an "elitist" for it. Giving them better gear will not make them better nor will it promote work and effort. It will simply shift them to be worse on a higher level of dungeons.

Then they get into groups because they meet the "requirements" but after seeing their bad play, people will remember their names because the community is not that big, and will refuse to take them on any runs because they know how they play.

 

It also doesnt help that instead of actual end game content they simply pump out new weapons and accessories every 2 months, that way they will never catch up because by the time they get something its already outdated and we are back to the same point.

Not many people spend money anymore, but the lower geared players simply need to also learn on their own. I can understand what they mean because I was at that point to, but its not as hard or dramatic as they make it out to be.

 

I am in category 2/3/4 from your above post. The clan I am in helped me out a lot in the beginning. I also made some alts to help with the gold income.

But I also try to put asside give or take 100e for trove, boxes or some other stuff I know is coming soon.

Everyone can make alts, and with the soul boost, you can gear them up pretty quick to be able to easily complete dailies for extra income and stuff.

Edited January 7, 2023 by Grimoir

[MishaJ]

21 minutes ago, Grimoir said:

A few times I even tried to explain the simple thing and got called an "elitist" for it. Giving them better gear will not make them better nor will it promote work and effort. It will simply shift them to be worse on a higher level of dungeons.

Then they get into groups because they meet the "requirements" but after seeing their bad play, people will remember their names because the community is not that big, and will refuse to take them on any runs because they know how they play.

This right here. If people think clans don't have blacklists, well they do. And they use them to remember who is not grabbing or soulburning or doing party protect like hongmoon block/stealth etc. They do this because they wanna make sure they don;t run with people who aren;t gonna do the one job their class has to do in the run.

Edited January 7, 2023 by MishaJ

[Saito Sacchi]

On 1/7/2023 at 4:23 AM, Nicolee said:

....they die if they have no higher level people in the group.

 

So canon-ly saying because your character could not survive the mark of the black rose on their own it is because ....what exactly? Devs deciding to give you a proper challenge in playing a story? This being your takek away here, I suppose, I would agree 100% that "elitists" are an issue.

Again what your demand is - and I hope to be corrected here - to get free carried and like true weapon drops for free since you didn't spend 50hrs+ yet and couldn't farm few gold coins? You die in content you are not suited in for. It is intended and there is even a death timer for every boss fight.

 

Since I like the idea of categorizing:

(unclearing content based of)

-> lack of surviveabilty

-> lack of dps

-> lack of knowledge

 

and advanced/elitists arre at fault you don't clear based by

-> their gear (sustain&dps)

-> knowledge of character/enviroment

 

which both comes overtime. Give me a fully gear BiS +20 FM and I can ensure you I wouldn't even clear Darkwyrm. I have no idea how ever works. So even if you end up getting freebies (soul bost/events/f10) you shouldn't die nor have too little dps to clear a specific next tier enviroment, which by the sound of your wording never occured once.

 

 

On 1/7/2023 at 4:23 AM, Nicolee said:

So no, I don't necessarily say lower-level players should get better rewards -- just that hi-level players have their benefits reset to be even with less-experienced players.  Parity is the key -- not one group making all the adjustment.

Yeah, you even pointed this out. You don't want anybody to progress because you refuse to learn mechanics? Heck I've raided with only the very basic items and close to no sustain, simply because at that specific raid my class was needed. I learned rotation and mechanics and we cleared without me dying from anything but failing mechs.

Can't apply this logic here, in real life or elsewhere. Imagine having your progress nulled at this point! By now you said you can't get into parties which in itself is mainly endgame content. So you did advance to a certain point so far. Still there are and always will be new accounts with even less than you do. Are you willing to sacrifice everything each time a new account gets created? Would be nice to run the story with other elitists over and over again -right?

 

 

On 1/7/2023 at 11:08 AM, Hungibungi said:

I played easy mode & stage 1 dungeons until I had a perf stat easy mode ss set

with the crit primers

 

and had starcross rings & earrings at +11

and my skystealer accs at +6. Before I had these,

 

Once I had decent stats tho I was able to join st5 groups easily and people join mine as well

Thus basically sounding more like the hongmoon way.

 

Regarding F8 though. Not much in there anymore, so "only" demonsbane would provide gear now.

 

20 hours ago, Immunity said:

so you yourself need strong players to help you?

 

if a player has better/advanced equipment, this can mean various things:

1) you spent money: skipped the time required to get it (any purchase which is more than cosmetic)

2) you worked hard: spent the time required to get it

3) you played for long time: got much free/weekly stuff, got multiple alts

4) you got lucky with people from above categories who helped you

and of course you will not fall into only one category. (i am in category 3 and a bit of 4)

 

 

Since falling (unevenly divided) in all four groups listed, I feel like adding a fifth possibility:

5) Inheriting their mentors character when they decide to move on

 

19 hours ago, MishaJ said:

This right here. If people think clans don't have blacklists, well they do. And they use them to remember who is not grabbing or soulburning or doing party protect like hongmoon block/stealth etc. They do this because they wanna make sure they don;t run with people who aren;t gonna do the one job

their class has to do in the run.

This (just quoting you now though I think I read it a few times now) seems to be an after effect of free gearing weather SB or carry runs. Many ppl won't put in any effort, even refuse to learn things like grab, soon enough those people will be infamous to avoid. Also applies to clans: at times you run "multi" with clan XYZ and they refuse to listen, you'd go by clan weather to take any of their members or not.

 

20 hours ago, Grimoir said:

It will simply shift them to be worse on a higher level of dungeons.

Then they get into groups because they meet the "requirements" but after seeing their bad play, people will remember their names because the community is not that big, and will refuse to take them on any runs because they know how they play.

And thus OP would start at lack of knowledge on your own character before also applying to content you'd be expected to play.

 

Lastly, if you struggle to get to the next threshold of content, that you may ask and will mostly just receive hintson how to accomplish it. Still demanding people who may have only obtained everything by themselves OR who spent time/money for many moons to just carry you would only work if you are willing to put in some effort, which can be from forming a group or providing value yourself. Also if a dungeon asks for 50dps, it's timer is adjacent.

 

 

 

[Immunity]

6 hours ago, Saito Sacchi said:

Imagine having your progress nulled at this point!

this happens every time nc decides to increase boss hp.

or when dungeons which you can already clear fast rotate out of daily challenge.

or when a learned mech is removed or easily ignored/skipped.

or when the equipment that you farmed for months is given for free at an event or soul boost.

[MishaJ]

These new players have no idea how hard it was to gear pre soulboost. Before soulboost was introduced people struggled to gear and get somewhere. Now you get free handouts with soulboost as long as you do all the tasks asked of you in the soulboost window. This is not a complaint cause I use it on my alts, but you might wanna ask in faction or forums @Nicoleefor people to share their stories of gearing their main before soulboost. And every last one of them veteran players will tell you it was hard and you have it easy now with soulboost.

[Machence]

On 1/8/2023 at 10:34 PM, MishaJ said:

These new players have no idea how hard it was to gear pre soulboost. Before soulboost was introduced people struggled to gear and get somewhere. Now you get free handouts with soulboost as long as you do all the tasks asked of you in the soulboost window. This is not a complaint cause I use it on my alts, but you might wanna ask in faction or forums @Nicoleefor people to share their stories of gearing their main before soulboost. And every last one of them veteran players will tell you it was hard and you have it easy now with soulboost.

As hard as it was back in the day of lvl 45/50 content? 

 

I can see nothing have changed in BnS. Used to be case back in the day too - top players farming 4 mode content whilst the noobs trying to scrape an upgrade here and there. Er, like in every other mmo I`ve played( since 2003th).

[lillvargen]

the players farming high lvl content do have the gear to do so

I have no problems helping new or returning players on their lvl of content, but in the end I have my static crew to farm high end stuff

[Machence]

27 minutes ago, lillvargen said:

the players farming high lvl content do have the gear to do so

I have no problems helping new or returning players on their lvl of content, but in the end I have my static crew to farm high end stuff

 

That's how the game works from the early days. Admittedly I`ve not played since mid 2016th but we had our static groups even back then and again, there was people complaining just like they do now. And the content back then was mediocre. Like we had 2 or so dungeons that required a bit more of game plan. And they wasn't even that hard. 

[Walex]

On 1/2/2023 at 7:19 AM, Nicolee said:

as there is no way to get higher tier equipment unless you are advanced enough to fit in with advanced groups.

 

The heck, there's plenty of 3-4k ppl with oculus gear (disgusting), and upsurge weapon is so easy to get. Then they get the badge and voila...

[MishaJ]

1 hour ago, Walex said:

 

The heck, there's plenty of 3-4k ppl with oculus gear (disgusting), and upsurge weapon is so easy to get. Then they get the badge and voila...

i gotta give it to walex here.... he's right on this one. badge is easy you just need 7m dps and ability to cc boss in nayul ez mode and you can earn a free badge by coin buy from merchant.... it's why all my alts have the badge cause i put the time to earn it. also yeah the occ gear is not hard to get.... some of my alts got it when i ranked for demonsbane season. and as for upsurge my alts got that too cause i bought sealed boxes cheap. this game is not complicated just gotta put some efforts in.

[Immunity]

getting +0 and 3-5k boss ap is not hard.

getting +20 and 10-15k boss ap is hard.

 

or compare the dps of soul boost players and the "advanced" players which is maybe 10-20 times higher.

[Walex]

Who cares about +20? That's whale stuff (or super grindy if u got energy for that).

 

Casual players end up around +8-12 (and even +12 is hard enough).

[Saito Sacchi]

point given where it is due.

15 hours ago, Walex said:

 

The heck, there's plenty of 3-4k ppl with oculus gear (disgusting), and upsurge weapon is so easy to get. Then they get the badge and voila...

if they know class and dungeon I'd love to invite/join their group. am repeatingly doing so, however...

 

same geared characters do exists and smh gain the majority now, which can't play their class nor have a single digit clue about mechanics (tbt there aren't many) therefore @op many "advanced" aren't willed to carry people along which do slow the run down. No joke here, and am not even sure how this got established, some people (1 or 2 char on that account) could play content withing aggro timer (as a group of 4) yet decide to slow dungeons down even when there is an "advanced" carrying the group.

 

11 hours ago, Immunity said:

or compare the dps of

why you'd need to compare the dps which is class specific and reliant and rare instances aside you won't run with same class only. in the end it's called mmo where you can earn some goals together. one might have less dps but does perfect mechanics still a win. you could have 4 highest dps and people only flame another all day.

 

Stage 1 has always chance to drop starcross and is easily solo-able if "the others" seem to be the issue here. Ifone dies to mechanic/rotation go learn. ez.

[Veru]

On 1/2/2023 at 1:19 AM, Nicolee said:

If I am less advanced, new, returning, or whatever, I am excluded by many advanced players running groups only for other advanced players.  This will tend to compensate advanced players with higher mode equipment, pushing them higher and higher while less advanced players remain stuck at lower-tier equipment.

 

Christ, I feel like I stepped into Chernobyl when coming into this thread.

 

But OP, I want to ask you and possibly help you. What is your goal in the game? You have to make a reasonable goal for yourself. You stated that farming lower floors gets you very little progress. Yes, this is true.

But I want to also let you know that farming something like floor 16 also yields kinda not a lot... It takes a very long time. You get 5 guaranteed tickets for spinning the wheel but the loot from the wheel is RNG, so you can get something totally worthless.

As an example, my gildstone here that is absolutely necessary to clear higher floors took farming from the start of the release of the dungeon (October 2022) to sometime mid November. That's around the time I stopped playing again. And it's not even maxed either. (As you can see, I keep failing it. Yay) Our team started farming stage 16 of Nexus on week 1. And this is just my one gildstone; my other accessories and gildstone aren't maxed either. It takes hours upon hours; I was playing 12 hours at some days. The game isn't designed to allow people to get very high gear by farming lower levels.

 

 

I will also let you know the rewards for clearing higher floors aren't actually all that good. It's just more crap to dump into RNG mechanics. All those 120 pet pods I received? It didn't even up my pet once. lol

 

Do you actually WANT that? I feel maybe this reality isn't known to those that yearn for that high gear. And this is the current state of the game.

 

 

It's not all paradise and a lot of people are not mentioning this, for some reason. Just that it's "hard work". How about showing OP what it actually takes so they can decide if that is the path they actually want.

 

You should forget about "advanced players" and getting into their groups. Some are in a completely different planet, as may be evident by some replies in this thread.

You need to find people that are like you and you need to work upwards at what you reasonably can accomplish. You are not going to get high gear playing one hour a day, even if you somehow find a carry group. Find a kinship in people who are like you. It's what I had to do and I'm not saying it's gonna happen overnight. You need to pick quality over strength. Why go into a group that is going to talk down on you, even if they have better gear? The best players I've met in this game had humble gear and even if I had higher gear, I always wanted to run with them because they were good company and if screw up happens, everyone is a lot more patient.

 

It's not really your fault either. No amount of mechanics will keep you from hitting an enrage timer if your gear is ping ponging back and forth because you fail upgrades with what little resources you do get. As far as a solution goes that doesn't involve finding like minded players, I think the rng that has been thrown into the game has been detrimental to every player's progress and I've been saying for a while they need to cut back on it (for the Western region of all places) and give the player a straight path to work towards. The dangling carrot method is quite bitter.