PatchKid

Why is Damage the only measurement to victory?

Recommended Posts

PatchKid   

Does it bother anyone else that the only measurement to victory in a 1v1 (or even 3v3) duel the person who did the most damage?

 

If the timer runs out, it does one thing.  Counts total damage dealt and awards the player with the most damage the victory.  That seems absolutely stupid.  In every other game with dueling involved, characters sacrificed damage or utility for some variety of healing, and that was their edge.

 

I prefer playing classes that are "out-lasting" types.  I loved Paladins, Priests, Crusaders and various other durable/defensive classes.  I picked KFM because it was very interesting and had some similar options with healing, but I feel penalized playing "smart" in the arena because if I can't finish my opponent off before the timer runs out - even if my HP is 100% and theirs is at less than 10% (happened to me probably a dozen times now), they get the victory.

 

Doesn't it say something to a person's lack of skill to defend against healing mechanics?  Especially since the KFM heals through grapple (mostly), and if you time your ground counters properly you can easily defend against - why is that player then punished because they "out-played" their opponent?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Total damage dealt is the only factor in deciding a winner AFTER THE TIMER RUNS OUT. Stop letting the timer run out. Simple.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Seyd   

PvP is a disappointment on this game. I expected better but right now it's pretty much classes exploiting the *cricket* out of their advantages. Same goes for this dps meter. Apparently the devs never played a proper fighting game to learn from. Victory always went to the person with the highest health. However, I can also sort of understand why they'd do this since there are classes which can heal through attacking, which would potentially skew the victory in favor of them.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
PatchKid   
10 minutes ago, Roxefeller said:

Total damage dealt is the only factor in deciding a winner AFTER THE TIMER RUNS OUT. Stop letting the timer run out. Simple.

 

I'm not "letting" the timer run out.  When facing certain opponents (like assassins), the match can take forever.  In order to survive certain opponents, I play defensively.  Maybe it isn't ideal in this game with anicancel 70% of someone's HP / and iframe everything else "design" to try and play more mechanically and methodically, but that isn't exactly "skill".  That's more a representation of "exploiting" (not in a abusing a bug situation) a weak mechanics design.

 

In fact, so many people who rely on anicancel end up losing to my methodical strategy because they have not factored any healing into the equation.  I've been beaten down to 365 HP (less than 1%) in a match, and grabbed someone then healed back up to 15% then turned it around with smart play to win the match.

 

The mathematically equation to determine skill in this game should not skill = damage dealt - at least in my opinion.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
PatchKid   

To me, the better equation to determine victory would be damage dealt / opponent's remaining HP + #of successful combos.  This would punish defensive players far less.  It also adds incentive to performing combos correctly.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 minute ago, PatchKid said:

 

I'm not "letting" the timer run out.  When facing certain opponents (like assassins), the match can take forever.  In order to survive certain opponents, I play defensively.  Maybe it isn't ideal in this game with anicancel 70% of someone's HP / and iframe everything else "design" to try and play more mechanically and methodically, but that isn't exactly "skill".  That's more a representation of "exploiting" (not in a abusing a bug situation) a weak mechanics design.

 

In fact, so many people who rely on anicancel end up losing to my methodical strategy because they have not factored any healing into the equation.  I've been beaten down to 365 HP (less than 1%) in a match, and grabbed someone then healed back up to 15% then turned it around with smart play to win the match.

 

The mathematically equation to determine skill in this game should not skill = damage dealt - at least in my opinion.

Have you even tried launching the CC-chain anicancel combo? I'm guessing you can't do it as that's why you're using a grapple build. CC-chain/3RF anicancel combo is the most effective way for a KFM to DEFEAT their opponent. Not drag the match out playing defensively. iframes + counter + ice guard are your defensive abilities as a KFM. You really don't need anything else if you're not wasting these.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Nutrient   

It shouldn't be determined by damage dealt because some classes have the upper hand in that matter. For instance, an Assassin player could constantly remain in stealth and only appear to apply damage, then stealth & run around the remainder of the match. It's unfair to some classes and favors some over the other. If anything, it should be considered a draw when neither is able to kill the other.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Naab   
14 minutes ago, 900040_1452550654 said:

It shouldn't be determined by damage dealt because some classes have the upper hand in that matter. For instance, an Assassin player could constantly remain in stealth and only appear to apply damage, then stealth & run around the remainder of the match.

 

Stealth only lasts 6 seconds (10 for T3F3 smokebomb, but on 1m30s cooldown), so he would have to come back to restealth => your opportunity to do damage.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
PatchKid   
14 minutes ago, Roxefeller said:

Have you even tried launching the CC-chain anicancel combo? I'm guessing you can't do it as that's why you're using a grapple build. CC-chain/3RF anicancel combo is the most effective way for a KFM to DEFEAT their opponent. Not drag the match out playing defensively. iframes + counter + ice guard are your defensive abilities as a KFM. You really don't need anything else if you're not wasting these.

 

I definitely anicancel as a KFM since it's really the only effective way to deal damage.  Air combos and grapple damage are pretty negligible when compared to most other DPS options.  The main point here is that healing and defensive play are completely detrimental if the timer does happen to run out.  Some classes do this by default.  I've lost to BDs and Destros who spin and are very hard to get into melee with who just stay defensive the entire match - they win because they edged me out in damage alone, but if the match were to continue past the timer they would clearly lose since the health remaining has already turned in my favor by that time.

 

I'm definitely still feeling out the arena and taking many losses.  My main concern is that a strategic playstyle is rarely rewarded when damage is the only measurement that matters.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
51 minutes ago, PatchKid said:

 

I definitely anicancel as a KFM since it's really the only effective way to deal damage.  Air combos and grapple damage are pretty negligible when compared to most other DPS options.  The main point here is that healing and defensive play are completely detrimental if the timer does happen to run out.  Some classes do this by default.  I've lost to BDs and Destros who spin and are very hard to get into melee with who just stay defensive the entire match - they win because they edged me out in damage alone, but if the match were to continue past the timer they would clearly lose since the health remaining has already turned in my favor by that time.

 

I'm definitely still feeling out the arena and taking many losses.  My main concern is that a strategic playstyle is rarely rewarded when damage is the only measurement that matters.

So incorporate the match time limit into your strategy. Simple.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Cogbyrn   

I don't personally agree with changing that mechanic, as I think whomever did more damage got more out of their class.  If you get beat up, then use healing combos/defensive abilities that get your health back, you're not effectively doing much other than taking a bunch of hits.  If they end up affecting you more than you affect them, and the timer runs out, they deserve the win.

 

That's just my opinion.  Overall I think the "most damage dealt" system is fine.  I don't think this game's systems should be affected by the "standard" role trinity present in so many other games.  Any games with dedicated healers are almost assuredly not balanced for 1v1 fights in the first place.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Gamemako   

 

10 minutes ago, Roxefeller said:

So incorporate the match time limit into your strategy. Simple.

 

That is identical to saying "reroll an offensive build".

 

1 minute ago, Cogbyrn said:

I don't personally agree with changing that mechanic, as I think whomever did more damage got more out of their class.  If you get beat up, then use healing combos/defensive abilities that get your health back, you're not effectively doing much other than taking a bunch of hits.  If they end up affecting you more than you affect them, and the timer runs out, they deserve the win.

 

The tradeoff should be in ability selection itself, which should be balanced. Right now, it is not: offensive builds absolutely dominate defensive ones in all phases of the game. The match timer being too short and split decision mechanics being absurd is just icing on the cake.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Kaal   

It would be nice if ALL damage counted. However, damage dealt to summoner's cat doesn't count. Thus, summoner will always win ties. Broken as *cricket*.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

@PatchKid
It's pointless to argue back with this people commenting how it shouldn't be changed. The reason is because they probably play Assassin/Destroyer/Blade Dancer.

Assassins can perma stealth. Uh yeah, they will have to restealth, watch out. If your class doesn't have a DoT it can restealth as many times as he wants and you will probably land one or two hits if you get lucky.
Destroyers just need to spin and whenever they feel ready (aka having all their cd up) they will fire-spin and when by the time they have finished, if you survived they will just go back to spin.
Blade Dancers will just spin with deflect or deffense build (or run if they runned out of focus) and will do the exactly same thing as Destroyers.

Now to evade some kid's tantrums, I am not saying those classes are unskilled like everyone does, I'm just stating the fact how those classes can easily win the match after the timer runs out and there is literally nothing you can do if you play with certain classes.

The whole point of this thread is just to say how fxcking stupid the system is. It's fxcking stupid that only counts the damage dealt.

 

7 hours ago, Cogbyrn said:

I don't personally agree with changing that mechanic, as I think whomever did more damage got more out of their class.  If you get beat up, then use healing combos/defensive abilities that get your health back, you're not effectively doing much other than taking a bunch of hits.  If they end up affecting you more than you affect them, and the timer runs out, they deserve the win.

 

That's just my opinion.  Overall I think the "most damage dealt" system is fine.  I don't think this game's systems should be affected by the "standard" role trinity present in so many other games.  Any games with dedicated healers are almost assuredly not balanced for 1v1 fights in the first place.


So if I do more dps then you I'm playing better then you? I mean, correct me if I'm wrong but to me it looks you are tryingb to say that.
I can play as a Destroyer and that I can speedkill you in 5 seconds doesn't mean I'm better then you or that I deserve the victory.
Even if I tried to speedkill you but you always managed to survive the last hit and healed back for three minutes, I still played better then you just because I've done far more damage then you?

No, just no, LOL. If I get beat up, no matter how much I heal and how long I kite you for because at the end of the match you will win.
I have had matches where I was pissing my asz off because the enemy couldn't finish me off. A whole minute just countering their attacks, a whole minute. Skill? Yes. Does it pay off when you see the opponent wins just because they did more damage then you? No. And less if it's one of those hit and run players. I underline this so people don't bullshxit me how I'm crying over the class. No.

 

 

8 hours ago, Roxefeller said:

Total damage dealt is the only factor in deciding a winner AFTER THE TIMER RUNS OUT. Stop letting the timer run out. Simple.


Not even going to bother with this. Your comment is just retarded.

 

 

6 hours ago, Kaal said:

It would be nice if ALL damage counted. However, damage dealt to summoner's cat doesn't count. Thus, summoner will always win ties. Broken as *cricket*.


And another retarded comment. If you have no idea about summoner and you are just butthurted because you keep losing to summoners, well, you are doing something wrong and coming here to complain about it it's one of those things.
Of course the damage dealt to the cat doesn't fxcking count. 
First of all, you will win the arena when you kill the player not the cat (I hope you managed to reach here) so why in earth would the damage dealt on the cat count at the end of the match? Why? Where do you see the logic there, where?
If the damage dealt to the cat did count, summoners wouldn't stand a fxcking chance of winning after three minutes, they would never be able to win, never.
Don't get me wrong here, summoners don't always win after three minutes like you said. My point is if the damage dealth to the pet counted, summoners wouldn't stand a single chance versus any class ingame.

So, I ask you again, where is the logic in your commentary? And for your information, summoners tend to loose after three minutes.
I'll explain it to you since you don't want to open your eyes. If the enemy is still alive after the whole match is because you have been kiting/healing instead of doing all the burst, and that means that you haven't done as much damage as you could (wow, so much logic wow!).

As I said, the whole point of the OP is that players should be rewarded, not with higher chances of winning because you have survived three minutes, but with EQUAL chances.
If you can survive a three minutes round and you are also dealing damage and so is the enemy, why is only the damage dealt counted to settle the victory?

 

 

8 hours ago, 900040_1452550654 said:

. If anything, it should be considered a draw when neither is able to kill the other.


Did you people notice that there is something under your medal called Wins, Losses and Draws? Well, this guy is right, shame his nickname got bugged.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Kuras   

Why would amount healed be a factor towards the end result? Force Master and Summoner have the most ideal ways of healing with very little loss. Take it from KFM who's two specs. Grapple > Pummel(Easiest to get away from no less) and Rising Dragon(which is part of the tree anyway).  Damage thing is fine because you'll get those matches where people will want to play keep away trying to maintain the highest health from recovery and doing a little bit of damage. Force Master, SIN and Summoner are fully capable of doing this. Destroyers too actually.  >_>

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
PatchKid   
1 hour ago, Kuras said:

Why would amount healed be a factor towards the end result? Force Master and Summoner have the most ideal ways of healing with very little loss. Take it from KFM who's two specs. Grapple > Pummel(Easiest to get away from no less) and Rising Dragon(which is part of the tree anyway).  Damage thing is fine because you'll get those matches where people will want to play keep away trying to maintain the highest health from recovery and doing a little bit of damage. Force Master, SIN and Summoner are fully capable of doing this. Destroyers too actually.  >_>

 

Amount healed shouldn't matter.  Total HP at the end of the round should matter.  That's very different.  I can heal myself a bunch of times, but if I can't even make a dent in the target's HP, what's the point?

 

Look at the equation and consider it for balance.  If I am losing to someone when my HP bar is 80%+ and theirs is less than 10% - that's not accurate.  I did 90% of their HP and successfully countered them by restoring my own HP through using tactics and sacrificing other skills to support those tactics.

 

Total Damage Done + HP Remaining + (#of combos completed * 1000). 

 

So, look at say an Assassin that has next to no healing options.  They can sit in stealth, deal out lots of damage, and kick out a bunch of combos.  Lets say they do 95,000 damage, have 10% HP left at the end of the match, and did oh 12 combos.

 

That's 95,000 + 4300 + 12000 = 100500 score

 

Their opponent, let's say it's a KFM because I know what they're capable of at least.  They did 38,700 damage, had 85% of their HP left, and landed say 7 combos.

 

That's 38,700 + 39950 + 7000 = 85650

 

So you see here the Assassin would clearly win the round because they did more than 2x the damage of the KFM.  However, had the KFM managed avoid taking 1/3 as much damage, but still maintained the HP pool by the end while landing a few more combos they could win a technical KO.  That isn't currently possible.  It's just raw damage and nothing else factors into the equation.

 

Very reminiscent of the whole "only kills matter" issue that is still a problem in modern MMO PvP where people give up utility and support to go full blown damage bots because getting kills is all that ever matter. 

 

The timer situation happens only like 10% of the time for my matches, but most of them go to BDs, Dest, and Assassins.  BDs/Dest just spin around and don't even bother to engage a lot of the time after they've done substantial damage.  Assassins get very picky about engaging if they aren't 100% certain they can get back into stealth.  Most of my timer losses are to Assassins.  I actually find BDs and Dests to be my best matchup (as KFM).  Summoners and FMs never go to the timer.  Rarely do they even get to the less than 1 minute mark.  There's no time to be technical against those opponents.  BMs are just very good at dishing out burst damage, and very easy for a KFM to setup for burst damage, so I don't experience this much against those opponents either.  I've gone to timer a bunch of times when it's KFM vs KFM.  We're just dancing around and counter spamming so much time just ends up disappearing.  Always sad when my opponents get a win and I clearly had the advantage if the match had lasted just 30 seconds longer.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
TakunDes   

That is because.

 

just think about it. if its the other way around, healing classes such as Destroyers and Summoners would have a massive win rate due to their healing abilities. Especially summoners, all they have to do is to delay the round by running around and tbh due to recent Summoners buff they can never die if they play well. will that be fair to everyone else?

 

nope

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Kuras   
3 minutes ago, PatchKid said:

Stuff


Let's turn this around and use FM and Summoner. both which can put out respectable damage AND restore their health.  Just think about it for a second. KFM sometimes will be at 10-20% health at a timeout while a typical Summoner will be at about 80%.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Healing is there to save your sorry ass from the mistakes you made, not to be a strategy to win.

If you let your opponent damage you, you have messed up, that is why damage dealt is what matters.

 

Healing is just a way to allow a comeback for you, instead of the match ending quickly with you at 0%

It takes a ton more skill to avoid damage, than it does to heal it.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
panikas   

All classes can do alot of damage but not all classes can heal for alot. You shouldnt win just because your class allows you to heal for more.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Deuljwi   

Because scummoners, on top of making the fight 2v1, get a heal to full every *cricket*ing 2 seconds.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Cogbyrn   

So if I do more dps then you I'm playing better then you? I mean, correct me if I'm wrong but to me it looks you are tryingb to say that.
I can play as a Destroyer and that I can speedkill you in 5 seconds doesn't mean I'm better then you or that I deserve the victory.
Even if I tried to speedkill you but you always managed to survive the last hit and healed back for three minutes, I still played better then you just because I've done far more damage then you?

No, just no, LOL. If I get beat up, no matter how much I heal and how long I kite you for because at the end of the match you will win.
I have had matches where I was pissing my asz off because the enemy couldn't finish me off. A whole minute just countering their attacks, a whole minute. Skill? Yes. Does it pay off when you see the opponent wins just because they did more damage then you? No. And less if it's one of those hit and run players. I underline this so people don't bullshxit me how I'm crying over the class. No.

 

Yes, actually, yes, LMAO.

 

But seriously, if you do nothing but kite/spam counters/evade damage for 3 minutes after someone pummels you, I think you deserve to lose.  If you get posterized early on and spend the rest of the fight trying to heal up, you've done nothing to actually fight your opponent.  All you've accomplished is playing the role of training dummy/punching bag.

 

I just don't think that deserves victory in any instance.  I don't see a need to try to incorporate a more complex system, especially with a fairly intangible metric like "combos executed".  You'd have to define what constitutes a "combo", then we'd have threads about how class combo definitions aren't balanced.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Cesura   

It's probably based on "damage dealt" because E-sports. 

 

It somewhat encourages offensive tactics, but it's likely meant to discourage turtling and healspam builds. Players doing nothing but blocking and healing is supposedly more boring to watch. 

 

At anyrate, if it went by health left like a fighting game, it'd cause even more balance issues where a Summoner or Destroyer could pop heals right before the timer goes off to cheese a victory.

 

Some sort of points system that weighs multiple factors would probably be ideal, but honestly, I'm not really sure what objective factors it could accurately take into account. It would actually be kind of awesome/hilarious if a judging system could punish you for over-spamming attacks, particularly ones that miss. (In other words: That spin spamming people love whining about so much would result directly in lost points) 

Edited by Cesura

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Nyssa   

I get what you are trying to say and usually it is the remaining hp what counts towards victory in lots of games.

Think of it as a boxing match i guess, who do you think will win?

The one getting in the punches and scoring points or the one defending all the time and so now and then getting a hit in?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!


Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.


Sign In Now