PvE/Raid Necklaces

[Deecato]

I've recently (2 weeks ago) upgraded my VT neck from stage 3 to stage awk3 in order to prepare blue crux for upcoming ET neck. I was aware that prophecy neck is currently "BiS" (which should not be in my option due to materials required being way cheaper than VT neck). I made this upgrade over prophecy neck because it was (at least I thought) more than logical that new neck that is coming soon (ET neck) has to be stronger than prophecy (and we can not acquire blue crux by salvaging prophecy neck). Unfortunately for me few days after I made this upgrade post on BnS Reddit appeared which compared VT/ET neck to Prophecy proving that only few classes can consider ET neck as BiS and other (like mine, which is summoner) will still be using prophecy. Few days ago there was another "sneak peak" which showed us skill modifiers on "raid" items which just made me laugh as VT/ET neck has modifiers on "Rosethorn" which is equal to 4% of summoner total damage, this is just offensive to see, it's like joking on players by putting 15% modifier on damage source that is irrelevant. I've asked BnS support to revert my neck upgrade so I can instead go for prophecy neck and just ignore fact that new late game raid necklace (which will be either super expensive to obtain or just hard to get by yourself and it's cost of upgrade being much much higher than prophecy) will be weaker for summoner than super cheap neck which requires no money to obtain, just good old grind. Sadly support answered me that they can only revert 3 stages of my VT neck (Awk3 -> Stage10) which of course I understand that it's their protocol that they need to follow BUT it is not my caprice, it's me feeling scammed, lied, cheated as it's so unbelievable that more expensive item which is harder to acquire will be weaker than almost free neck. I do understand that we are going thought balance changes for now but it doesn't seem like balance team has minimal idea of how to balance items. I see that they are trying to not overpower one class and not make other garbage but first they should take a look at items and their cost and just logically think that if it's harder to obtain/is more expensive it has to be better than other variants.
This isn't place to "cry for reversion" as I'm already bothering support thought ticket option so I'd just like people that work for Blade and Soul to see this message, to think logically about cost and balance and either make ET neck something that every class consider "BiS" and not as 1 or 2 percent upgrade as I want to point out again raid paths are way more expensive or nerf prophecy neck and keep VE/ET neck at current "balance". Of course I'm aware that people that went for prophecy neck would hate nerfs on it that's why I appeal for making ET neck stronger (Also VT neck cheaper as 6 PTS cost and twice as much materials is purely a joke) and leave prophecy untouched. Higher spendings should be always equal to significant damage increase. 

[Draknalor]

VT is Old neck. Prophecy is new neck.

 

New stuff is better than old stuff.

Just think of Prophecy as TT Quality acessory and it makes more sense that it's better.

 

ET and Prophecy are on the same "Tier" of "New-ness" I guess so that's why they are similar in strength.

 

 

[Grimoir]

Actually the new raid neck that will coem out will be better than the current prophecy necklace.  Right now prophecy necklace is betetr due to the crit damage boost, but the new neck that will come beats that. see it this way: VT Neck < Prophecy < New Raid neck, and thats for every class. In KR people used prophecy post awakening simply because the modifiers on VT nec k are garbage, thats why they go prophecy until they get the new raid neck.

 

You have 2 ooptions: keep using VT neck, as that one is still 2nd BiS, or go try hard for the prophecy and later turn it into the pvp version if you like.

Having VT at stage 10 help you already as you get the blue crux for the next tier.

 

 

[Deecato]

Thanks for your replies but this isn't correct as far as my research shows. 

Currently on KR many people are still using Prophecy neck over ET neck due it's being simply overpower (or ET being underpower) which is an issue just because raid path is way more resource heavy and if it doesn't offer better dps what is the point of having it? I barely care about VT neck as I mentioned, I've upgraded it only to prepare blue crux. I'm fine with it being weaker than prophecy (even though resources needed are joke) what I'm not fine with is that ET (new neck from raid) is weaker than prophecy. Please give me your research to prove that I'm mistaken and ET is BiS.

[SayhaSeer]

 

I can show your Class necklace if you tell me your class, but I can't translate effects sorry. I think only last part is translated on all necklaces.

[amokk]

23 hours ago, Grimoir said:

Actually the new raid neck that will coem out will be better than the current prophecy necklace.  Right now prophecy necklace is betetr due to the crit damage boost, but the new neck that will come beats that. see it this way: VT Neck < Prophecy < New Raid neck, and thats for every class. In KR people used prophecy post awakening simply because the modifiers on VT nec k are garbage, thats why they go prophecy until they get the new raid neck.

 

You have 2 ooptions: keep using VT neck, as that one is still 2nd BiS, or go try hard for the prophecy and later turn it into the pvp version if you like.

Having VT at stage 10 help you already as you get the blue crux for the next tier.

 

 

ET necklace is only better for a few classes. Prophecy neck is still better than ET neck for gunners, for example.

Preferably you'd want at least 1 Person in each Party to have the ET neck to apply the debuff - PVE Necklace+ET Neck Buff = better than ET

[Racingwind]

 

For the neck in the middle----------------------------------------

Killing(killer) flower necklace

Chance to proc KILLING FLOWER effect for 10 seconds

While under the effect of KILLING FLOWER, increases attack power by 25, increases boss attack power(?) by 30

While under the effect of KILLING FLOWER, increases additional damage by 650, critical damage rating by 650

Chance to proc ATROPHY(?) on target for 10 seconds

On hitting target with ATROPHY, increase boss attack power(?) by 20, critical damage by 550 for 5 seconds

Wingstorm damage increased by 25%

 

Guide

Enhances WARP spec skills

 

Acquired from

Crimson Dream Secret Manor - "some Chinese name" (boss name, true claw vine bush, something like that)

 

7 hours ago, Deecato said:

Currently on KR many people are still using Prophecy neck over ET neck due it's being simply overpower (or ET being underpower) which is an issue just because raid path is way more resource heavy and if it doesn't offer better dps what is the point of having it? I barely care about VT neck as I mentioned, I've upgraded it only to prepare blue crux. I'm fine with it being weaker than prophecy (even though resources needed are joke) what I'm not fine with is that ET (new neck from raid) is weaker than prophecy. Please give me your research to prove that I'm mistaken and ET is BiS.

I calculated the prophecy neck is about a 6% increase over VT awaken 3 for my character stat. I don't know about the new ET neck stats but if you point me to it I can do some maths using VT awaken 3 neck as the base.

[Deecato]

Thanks for your effort in translation. There is post to which I was referring: 
https://www.reddit.com/r/bladeandsoul/comments/aic36f/is_it_worth_it_to_get_prophecy_neck_now/
 

As I mentioned in my first message, my class is summoner. I've had picture showing modifiers on raid accessories, sadly it didn't include ET neck modifiers, only VT neck (15% on insignificant source of damage) . But as BT/TT accessories share same modifiers just different % I can assume that ET neck is also buffing "Rosethorn" which is 4% of total summoner damage. These modifiers plus neck stats and effect makes it still weaker than prophecy (which is way easier to obtain) and if we don't count "party buff" from ET this neck is utter trash in comparison with ET (Prophecy users will get benefits from ET party buff making it even better than it is now). 
In the end comparing all these factors (ET buff for prophecy users, ET neck stats, ET neck way higher cost, ET neck availability) ET neck is really, really trashy and only use of it as "amokk" mentioned is to have one person that is "ET neck slave" to buff party members. 
If anyone have different research/opinion I will be happy to hear them. Perhaps I'm wrong all this time and my butt-hurt is invalid and ET is worst it's cost. 

[Racingwind]

23 hours ago, Deecato said:

Thanks for your effort in translation. There is post to which I was referring: 
https://www.reddit.com/r/bladeandsoul/comments/aic36f/is_it_worth_it_to_get_prophecy_neck_now/
 

As I mentioned in my first message, my class is summoner. I've had picture showing modifiers on raid accessories, sadly it didn't include ET neck modifiers, only VT neck (15% on insignificant source of damage) . But as BT/TT accessories share same modifiers just different % I can assume that ET neck is also buffing "Rosethorn" which is 4% of total summoner damage. These modifiers plus neck stats and effect makes it still weaker than prophecy (which is way easier to obtain) and if we don't count "party buff" from ET this neck is utter trash in comparison with ET (Prophecy users will get benefits from ET party buff making it even better than it is now). 
In the end comparing all these factors (ET buff for prophecy users, ET neck stats, ET neck way higher cost, ET neck availability) ET neck is really, really trashy and only use of it as "amokk" mentioned is to have one person that is "ET neck slave" to buff party members. 
If anyone have different research/opinion I will be happy to hear them. Perhaps I'm wrong all this time and my butt-hurt is invalid and ET is worst it's cost. 

Ok I did the maths I'll put the TL;DR or for people who don't care about maths. ET neck > VT neck > prophesy neck. Now before you go all crazy about how that's bullshit, I'll list my work down below, you can decide for yourself after.

 

*Warning* maths incoming!! *Warning*

Normalized damage is what's ultimately important. Basically the higher the normalized damage, the better.

 

Using my own character's stats (after taking neck off, since we want to check how our dmg changes after putting on each neck) I have the following:

As displayed in f2
Atk pwr:  1401

crit rate: 59.92%

crit dmg: 279.21%

ele dmg: 140.25%

 

Using rating formula (we need to since all these buffs have a mix of fixed % and ratings increase):

crit rate: 59.91236%

crit dmg: 279.2164%

ele dmg: 140.2578%

 

Accurate to within 3rd decimal, good enough I'd say. I didn't bother with piercing and accuracy changes. I am assuming just gearing normally we are already doing true damage to bosses, which may or may not be true, but I didn't bother looking that up. I am also assuming 22% crit dmg from TT5 and true tiger short cd uptime of 50%.

 

VT awk 3 with full buffs up time (assuming self and target debuff is always up, I don't have the data on triggering % chance on any of these necks, so ya...)

Atk pwr: 1584

crit rate: 68.27%

crit dmg: 312.38%

ele dmg: 163.22%
Normalized Damage: 3166.857

 

Prophecy awk 3 with full buff up time *NOTE* I read the prophecy "+40ap +10% crit dmg" buff as a NON-STACKING buff . (there will be one later on that assumes it's a stacking buff)

Atk pwer: 1652

crit rate: 65.91%

crit dmg: 334.24%

ele dmg: 150.41%

Normalized Damage: 3160.656

 

ET neck with full buff up time (not including skill mods since I can't generalize those)

Atk pwr: 1649

crit rate: 65.91%

crit dmg: 320.00%

ele dmg: 165.42%

Normalized Damage: 3341.778

 

Prophecy awk 3 with full buff up time + vt neck slaves (also full target debuff up time). One thing to keep in mind is that just 1 person can't keep VT neck debuff up 100% of the time.

Atk pwr: 1652

crit rate: 65.91%

crit dmg: 339.46%

ele dmg: 150.41%

Normalized Damage: 3203.418

 

Prophecy awk 3 with full buff up time + ET neck slaves (same condition as above)

Atk pwr: 1672

crit rate: 65.91%

crit dmg: 344.75%

ele dmg: 150.41%

Normalized Damage: 3286.043

 

Prophecy awk 3 with full buff up time and +120AP and +30% crit dmg, no neck slaves! (Someone who has prophecy neck wanna confirm this buff stacks 3 times?)

Atk pwr: 1732

crit rate: 65.91%

crit dmg: 354.24%

ele dmg: 150.41%

Normalized Damage: 3485.428

[Grimoir]

Idk something seems of with your calculation a bit..... did you take into account the crit damage bonuses from the raid necklaces that only trigger when you apply the buff? o.o

[Racingwind]

30 minutes ago, Grimoir said:

Idk something seems of with your calculation a bit..... did you take into account the crit damage bonuses from the raid necklaces that only trigger when you apply the buff? o.o

I am curious to know which part you feel it's off. I'm by no means immune to mistakes, and there are alot of assumptions that I've made, which I've included, and they may or may not be correct. So constructive discussion is welcome.

 

And yes I applied all the buff bonuses, as stated in the opening line of each calculation. I assumed those are always active as well since I don't have data of their trigger rate.

[Deecato]

I appreciate your effort and this math do seem to be correct, but sadly something isn't right in these calculations or there is additional factor(s) that matter. As we already know that prophecy neck is way stronger than VT neck (assuming your crit is around 90%+) and we've got news from KR that ET neck is either really similar to prophecy or worse. I love mathematical proofs but "in game" we can see that this summary is missing something.

[Racingwind]

3 hours ago, Deecato said:

I appreciate your effort and this math do seem to be correct, but sadly something isn't right in these calculations or there is additional factor(s) that matter. As we already know that prophecy neck is way stronger than VT neck (assuming your crit is around 90%+) and we've got news from KR that ET neck is either really similar to prophecy or worse. I love mathematical proofs but "in game" we can see that this summary is missing something.

I'm curious to see where you got the "prophecy is much better than VT neck" conclusion, wanna read up on the source. In the maths I did there is one instance where prophecy is indeed better, and that's if the crit dmg % buff is a stacking buff. Otherwise as indicated, its draw back is the fact that crit dmg depends on you getting a crit, which prophecy has a lower % to do so, but also the massive elemental damage that you are losing by using prophecy. But of course, there certainly are alot of assumptions I've made which aren't backed up by data, but one does what one can do.

 

And I've heard conflicting thoughts outside of my own maths that prophecy and VT is about the same, which agrees which the maths. Nonetheless, I'm curious to see where is the data for "prophecy better than VT", will help me in another venture that I'm currently working on.

[Grimoir]

4 hours ago, Racingwind said:

I'm curious to see where you got the "prophecy is much better than VT neck" conclusion, wanna read up on the source. In the maths I did there is one instance where prophecy is indeed better, and that's if the crit dmg % buff is a stacking buff. Otherwise as indicated, its draw back is the fact that crit dmg depends on you getting a crit, which prophecy has a lower % to do so, but also the massive elemental damage that you are losing by using prophecy. But of course, there certainly are alot of assumptions I've made which aren't backed up by data, but one does what one can do.

 

And I've heard conflicting thoughts outside of my own maths that prophecy and VT is about the same, which agrees which the maths. Nonetheless, I'm curious to see where is the data for "prophecy better than VT", will help me in another venture that I'm currently working on.

I believe the issue in your calcualtions are the crit damage increase and the elemental damage increase. I will try my own calculations and see if i come close to yours. Also i think you should simply take 1 of your skills (not the awakened version of it) like for example...for summoner take just plain sunflower, and calculate the damage increase based on that one skill. Thats should give you a better idea of the increase rather than checking the overall damage.

[Racingwind]

36 minutes ago, Grimoir said:

I believe the issue in your calcualtions are the crit damage increase and the elemental damage increase. I will try my own calculations and see if i come close to yours. Also i think you should simply take 1 of your skills (not the awakened version of it) like for example...for summoner take just plain sunflower, and calculate the damage increase based on that one skill. Thats should give you a better idea of the increase rather than checking the overall damage.

Here is what's under the hood:

crit rate formula: (96.98717421*crit rate)/(crit rate+5402.894138)

crit dmg formula: 125+((291.14854*crit dmg)/(5581.165185+crit dmg))

ele dmg formula: 100+(ele dmg/(31.93134035+0.003438223475*ele dmg))

 

Here is an example of the three formulas for prophecy neck (they are divided by 100 to convert into %):

crit rate: ((96.98717421*B19)/(B19+5402.894138)+6)/100    (+6% from true tiger soul w/ 50% up time)

crit dmg: (125+((291.14854*B20)/(5581.165185+B20))+22+19+10)/100    (+22% from TT5 set, 19% from true tiger soul w/ 50% up time, and the flat 10% from prophecy neck buff)

ele dmg: (100+9+(B21/(31.93134035+0.003438223475*B21)))/100   (+9% from true tiger soul w/ 50% up time)

 

AP before normalization: 1652

Normalization formula: AP * [(crit%) * (crit dmg) * (ele) + (1-crit% * (crit dmg) * (ele)] / 2

AP after normalization: 3160.656

 

There shouldn't be a need to look at individual skills, as skill damages are a function of AP. For example basic sunflower dmg formula is [4.8*AP] compared to awakened sunflower at [10*AP]. The only variable in there is AP, and this is true for every skill. By normalizing AP, I am effectively calculating what each hit of sunflower should do, factoring in crit, crit dmg and ele dmg.

[Deecato]

Not as mathematical calculation but as in game examples. Every user of VT neck 10/awk3 that changed to Prophecy says that they have noticed significant damage increase (Some people say 50k some value it for over 100k). But not a single person I've asked about it (and I was spamming chat to gather data) said that they lost dps. I got this information from various people. People that have event soul, p2w soul, true cosmic, true tiger. People with and without TT accs etc.