The party problems at Irontech forge and higher

[DontLetThePloggleBite]

My summ is currently HM9 and I've gotten IF done only once, even though I know the mechs. The one time was a nice party, we patiently tried and waited new players because everytime a new one saw our HM levels (9, 9, 8 and a 10?) they left. I mean yes, it is a HM15 recommended, but in the end our party with three summoners on HM 9, 9 and 11, assassin on HM15, warlock on HM8 and force master around HM9-10 we succesfully and quite quick got the things done. Nice person repeated us all the mechs on both bosses, we discussed who are at back etc. and things went well. The HM15 SIN helped a lot and was also patient with us. 

Why so many people underestimate HM8-10 characters? We might have a lower ap than you and your HM15 character but it doesn't always mean we're dumb about the mechs and get just carried. It's frustrating to try do Irontech Forge when no one is there to stay to help or even try. Our community is sometimes feeling so bad. 

[Annysan]

Well there are several reasons behind this...

 

Sometimes (or rather often I guess), the "higher ones" are in a hurry and want to be done with these dungeons, as doing them on several alts takes quite some time and most of the time you don't really get anything out of it. That is why they want high ap groups, so they can skip the mechs.

That being said, I got the feeling many don't know the mech, including higher geared players, or don't care about it anymore, as they normally can skip it.

 

Also, many of the lower players just want a carry. I know there are people totally capable of doing this dungeon at your level (although the sin probably carried you as well there ;). The problem is, everyone had more than enough runs with people not caring.

 

Just the other day I wiped sanctum 4 times with my twink, because I just didn't do enough damage to help out the other 5, which were more working against me than with me to be honest. First boss the pulled the adds somewhere while I told them to let just me do it or hit the boss cause damage ;), while no one did the hammer (and yes I explained it), second boss about 3 rods were thrown, and at last boss the ranged ones got knocked up all the time because they ignored to be standing at 16m while not being capable of iframing it, they kd (got blinded of course), the other fm randomly froze, even after beeing told 5 times not to and everyone died in the big aoe or randomly. So after more than 40 min, my time was up and I was lucky I had one fast daily left to do or I would have missed it altogether. Runs like these are the exact reason people with hm 8/9 are assumed to not know any mechs or read the chat.

 

And honestly I tried too many times to explain things to people, but I just get ignored. Simple as that. Why read chat, or speak some basic english in an online game in europe. Yeah I know bashing on people with gear is the popular thing, as they are so mean. Guess what, those of us who would have done things, got pushed away from this by new players ignoring us and wasting our time, while not being willing to add anything to a run.

So maybe not only the "higher" players are to blame here (sure some are), but your newbie comrades as well

[Riss77]

Just one of these HM9-10 that doesn't know the mechs is enough to make your run a hellish trap and waste your evening. And believe me there are legion.

[DontLetThePloggleBite]

But there's some HM9-10 that do, should people ask first before leaving or not?

[Riss77]

Annysan really explained how it is and what happened to him also applied to me.

For IF it's not even a matter of hm9-10 knowing mechs, it's that IF wasn't designed for undergeared people fresh out the story.

It's like you'are saying everyone of the team knows mechs of the latest raid so it's ok to go full seolak, baleful/seraph weapon to TT. You won't beat the enrage timer of the bosses...

[Ryunosuke Takahashi]

Why don't we just remove enrage timers for normal mode, leave it for hard mode and raids? Would solve some issues of players being unable to run certain dungeons including the new ones (if they learn the mechanics that is)?

[RavTH]

2 hours ago, Kitsune Takahashi said:

Why don't we just remove enrage timers for normal mode, leave it for hard mode and raids? Would solve some issues of players being unable to run certain dungeons including the new ones (if they learn the mechanics that is)?

but that would be smart.

 

On 13/06/2018 at 11:34 PM, DontLetThePloggleBite said:

My summ is currently HM9 and I've gotten IF done only once, even though I know the mechs. The one time was a nice party, we patiently tried and waited new players because everytime a new one saw our HM levels (9, 9, 8 and a 10?) they left. I mean yes, it is a HM15 recommended, but in the end our party with three summoners on HM 9, 9 and 11, assassin on HM15, warlock on HM8 and force master around HM9-10 we succesfully and quite quick got the things done. Nice person repeated us all the mechs on both bosses, we discussed who are at back etc. and things went well. The HM15 SIN helped a lot and was also patient with us. 

Why so many people underestimate HM8-10 characters? We might have a lower ap than you and your HM15 character but it doesn't always mean we're dumb about the mechs and get just carried. It's frustrating to try do Irontech Forge when no one is there to stay to help or even try. Our community is sometimes feeling so bad. 

NA or EU?

[mrhuman555]

As a new high-gear player (recently got R9 & just started on HH & DD), I realised that most geared ppl don’t know / know-but-cannot-execute the mechanics. You’re expected to “whale over it”, using DPS & iframe to counter what would have been auto wipes on hard mode dungeons. There are quite a number of ppl who have bad pings (like me). Unlike the myth, I consider my DPS to be acceptable for my gear, but only if I can avoid the CCs that’s easy to avoid for lower pings. We expect to fail some mechanics, and expect ppl to not be able to execute properly too. After all, you can’t see something like “Knows Mech Well” in F2... which ends up in this chicken-and-egg problem

 

Additional notes:

One of the things that amuses me is that when I caused a wipe in HH, my pt screamed “you’re raven 8 & haven’t done his at all?”. I wanted to scream back “OFC I HAVEN’T DONE IT, I JUST GOT MY RAVEN 8 YESTERDAY. HOW CAN I JOIN R9+ PT WITHOUT BEING KICKED???”

[Why Bother]

On 6/14/2018 at 12:07 AM, Annysan said:

Also, many of the lower players just want a carry. I know there are people totally capable of doing this dungeon at your level (although the sin probably carried you as well there ;). The problem is, everyone had more than enough runs with people not caring.

It's always irksome to see people claim how all/many/most lower level/geared people just want to be carried, as so many people do. I really doubt that to be true, but at the same time, just look at the higher level/geared people, and all the absolutely absurd stat/equipment demands they can make, just so they have a super fast, easy, brain dead run, like one I saw a while back where they were setting up a full six person party, with all the buffs, 1.2k+ AP, Aransu 3+ for Desolate Tomb, yes, Desolate Tomb. There can be lazy people in the lower end, but there's lazy people on the top end too.

 

On 6/14/2018 at 12:07 AM, Annysan said:

And honestly I tried too many times to explain things to people, but I just get ignored. Simple as that. Why read chat, or speak some basic english in an online game in europe. Yeah I know bashing on people with gear is the popular thing, as they are so mean. Guess what, those of us who would have done things, got pushed away from this by new players ignoring us and wasting our time, while not being willing to add anything to a run.

There's people playing that may not know any English at all, as the client is available in multiple languages, so it's entirely possible they didn't understand a word you were saying.

 

 

 

B&S mechanics are just bad, that's all there is to it, why do you think there's so many guides on mechanics? Good game mechanics to me are those that are difficult to execute well, but easy to pick up on. B&S mechanics tend to be the reverse, once you know what they are, it doesn't take too much experience to be able to pull it off at least fairly well, but if you didn't watch some video, or whatever, how do you think people are suppose to know about boss jumping patterns, or the furthest/closest player has this happen to them, and all the other such stuff?

 

The game simply doesn't make it clear what it is it wants you to do very well, then the solo story content does NOTHING to effectively prepare people for party play, and this matter will only get worse. Right now, Irontech Forge, and Ebondrake Lair look like they will soon be the bottom dungeons they expect people to be doing straight out of the story content, what with all the prior dungeon reward nerfs, their statements about wanting people in higher dungeons, and how the Baleful/Seraph line looks poised to be phased out. Just how prepared do you think new players, right out of the story content are to do those dungeons? If you think you're frustrated by people not knowing what to do in dungeons now, just wait till Acts IX, X, and so on are out.

[Shuchin]

Yes the dungeon mechanics in BnS and learning curves are a hot topic, especially if NCSoft ever wants to make an ad offensive for getting some of those 2 million players back (e.g. when the overhyped UE4 comes). <.<

 

When my clan was still active, that was by far the best option to learn dungeons. No one sticks with you, helps you and understands your struggles while learning, like a friend and clannie does. v.v

 

I have been living off my friend list for this for a while, but now I want to attempt Drowning Deeps, and none of my friends have done it yet, and it's a real problem for me.

 

As a KFM people will expect me to tank, I cannot just hitch a ride for it to try it out. So what's on the program?

 

1) I read the written guide (BnS academy), make my personal notes
2) I watch a video guide, expand and clarify my notes
3) I run F12 on the two bosses there to perfection my tanking rotation on their normal attack pattern.

 

Only then, and I am still doing #3 right now, can I dare to apply for any of the pick up groups, because I know it will just be a horrible 30 minutes of toxic torture for me if I try to learn on the run with other people there. =_=

 

Now I imagine how a new player would stumble into this without knowing their options like I do, it would just feel like a wall of Dev stupidity and toxic community. :(

We really need some mentoring, social and learning support for PvE, no kidding.

 

The best thing atm are some discords of helpful players/communities, but you won't find them if you don't know they are there...

 

Oh and gear has zero to do with it. I can do 190k on Moyun and will hold aggro vs 400k gunners, no problem there. So this will not be solved by giving people cheaper upgrade events.

[MCWang]

As I was reading that, I was thinking I bet the HM15 Sin did 60% of the damage.  You may have done the mechanics fine, but your DPS just isn't there.  To be honest, if I joined your dungeon room, I probably would've left too, not because I assume you suck or lack the skill, it's just because I know I'm not strong enough to carry the extra DPS needed.  Someone already said, these dungeons weren't really made for characters without post seraph/baleful weapons. 

[RavTH]

On 01/07/2018 at 8:52 PM, MCWang said:

As I was reading that, I was thinking I bet the HM15 Sin did 60% of the damage.  You may have done the mechanics fine, but your DPS just isn't there.  To be honest, if I joined your dungeon room, I probably would've left too, not because I assume you suck or lack the skill, it's just because I know I'm not strong enough to carry the extra DPS needed.  Someone already said, these dungeons weren't really made for characters without post seraph/baleful weapons. 

eh so what, we have high gear to carry people and I saw that event was very good to help community since it gave free soul, but if community don't help eachother we will end up dying on new players because "VT gear or uninstall" is their option if nobody helps them. If there is event that benefits new players people should help new players in gearing up so in future you will find geared players to do raids/dungeons since the game is slowly dying already by amazing patches they provide us...

[MCWang]

9 hours ago, RavTH said:

eh so what, we have high gear to carry people and I saw that event was very good to help community since it gave free soul, but if community don't help eachother we will end up dying on new players because "VT gear or uninstall" is their option if nobody helps them. If there is event that benefits new players people should help new players in gearing up so in future you will find geared players to do raids/dungeons since the game is slowly dying already by amazing patches they provide us...

well yeah, that's exactly what I'm saying.  the SIN carried the TC's group, even though they knew how to do the mechanics.  The original post talked about people underestimating lower level players, which there is certainly an unfair assumption that exists, but at the end of the day, under level/geared characters will have to rely on a carry regardless of how well the player might play.  I couldn't care less about what the group's gear is like when I join an EC group cause I know I can carry the team if needed, but not so for higher dungeons like IF.

[RavTH]

3 hours ago, MCWang said:

well yeah, that's exactly what I'm saying.  the SIN carried the TC's group, even though they knew how to do the mechanics.  The original post talked about people underestimating lower level players, which there is certainly an unfair assumption that exists, but at the end of the day, under level/geared characters will have to rely on a carry regardless of how well the player might play.  I couldn't care less about what the group's gear is like when I join an EC group cause I know I can carry the team if needed, but not so for higher dungeons like IF.

IF is not that high dungeon. First boss is the only main problem but if you tell people where to stand then you are set, last boss is pretty much punchbag.