SF por WL?

[PandaG3]

Which is better for pvp and pve, sf or wl, I read a lot about sf, and I see that they say they are not good, they do not rank among the best 50, and well, I am a new player but I would like to learn good combos , And which one do you think is good for pvp, thanks for replying

[Captain WeebM@ster]

You are pretty much asking whats better the top op class or the weakest class in the game right now? so the answer is obviously going wl. if you new and wanna pvp stay away from BM/SF/FM 

[PandaG3]

You mean that the strong is wl and should I stay away from fm? Wow, if those range classes I liked, but hey, thanks for your opinion

[Nyaha]

SF is somewhere a little below mid-tier. WL is high-tier.
I would say - for pvp any class is ok excluding FM. Just pick one that you like. No reason to force yourself to play the class you are not interested in - balance shifts all the time.
High tier at the moment are BD, WL, SUM, SIN.
Mid tier - BM, DES, SF, KFM.
Low tier - FM.

[AriShadow2]

Top tier: FM,BD,WL

Mid Tier: SF,BM,sin,DES.

Low Tier: KFM, summ.

[Backstabpuss]

Top tier: WL, FM , SUMM,BD

Mid Tier: SIN, DES, BM

Low Tier: KFM, SF

 

With small changes , this can be valid for PVE also

[Captain WeebM@ster]

On 8/27/2017 at 0:04 PM, AriShadow2 said:

Top tier: FM,BD,WL

Mid Tier: SF,BM,sin,DES.

Low Tier: KFM, summ.

 

On 8/27/2017 at 1:01 PM, Backstabpuss said:

Top tier: WL, FM , SUMM,BD

Mid Tier: SIN, DES, BM

Low Tier: KFM, SF

 

With small changes , this can be valid for PVE also

With small changes , this can be valid for PVE also

 

Can you guys tell me why do you think FM is in the top tier?  I am genuinely curious. since it's obviously not for its"amazing" performance in the rankings and low-mid abilities so its supposedly for its "amazing potential at the top rankings" yet I don't really see any evidence for that either, Choloform(best FM EU) lost pretty decisively to #3 or #4 sin in EU ( Neagi ) even though supposedly FM vs SIN is heavily favoured towards FM. Recent KR finals the best FM KR and arguably in the world (I think his name is Jung Ho) had 2 1v1s, 1 was vs sin and the other vs SF. Again SIN is supposedly the easiest matchup for FM and the sin he was fighting is not considered to be the top (2nd or 3rd place) and the fight ended with the FM winning with around 6% hp, the next fight was against the SF, SF is considered 50-50 matchup for FM, the SF he was fighting was not his main or even 2nd most played class and SF is considered in the "trash tier" PVP class right now yet THE BEST FM IN THE WORLD LOST TO A SF ALT WITH 70% HP LEFT. I watched every tournament this year from all regions that had it so far and i have seen next to no FMS on any region (You'd think a class that you say is almost as broken as Warcuck that can 100-0 in the ❤ ❤ ❤ ❤ing finals would get picked by any team to get that prize money but nope i guess they just don't know how opie FM is :^) ) the only region that had a lot of FMS was Taiwan and IIRC FMS there lost every single 1v1 matchup. if you could provide some evidence as to why you think FM is anywhere below 5th place in the PVP ranking I would love to see that.

[Nyaha]

Because they are trolling.

[Zekken]

Based on the information that Jaesung provided from top KR players, FM was considered top tier just behind WL.

 

I was a little surprised when I saw that at first too, but can kind of see why it's considered strong now.  FM has a lot of sustain/damage mitigation and can put out pretty impressive damage in a short amount of time via double aerial and wallbang. 

 

I think they aren't well represented in the rankings because the class has a steep learning curve compared to the majority of other classes.  They perform badly in the hands of an amateur and really shine in the hands of a professional.  

 

I believe FM is really one of the only classes in the game that gets substantially rewarded for putting time into mastering the class.  I think KFM is the same way except the payout isn't as great.

 

Probably not the detailed answer you are looking for, but that's just my take on FM being labeled top tier.

[Captain WeebM@ster]

13 hours ago, Zekken said:

 

I think they aren't well represented in the rankings because the class has a steep learning curve compared to the majority of other classes.  They perform badly in the hands of an amateur and really shine in the hands of a professional.  

 

As I said in the post above, while it can shine and be played well I just don't see any evidence to put it into the top tier. I would rank it 5th top class if you consider FM stronger than SM, but Defenetliy not anywhere near top 2 since those spots are occupied by le balanced classes bd and wl 

[Nyaha]

All this "top Korea" thing has little meaning for an average player. And for an average player FM is the worst pvp class. FM is literally the only class that did not win a single duel vs any of my two warlocks during this season. I do have some problems to fight them on my BM but i am just a noob bm...

[Zekken]

The skill level of the player has little to do with what was being addressed.  Previous posters were listing PvP tiers which tend to take into account the highest potential for each class and rank accordingly.  The best sources are the top rank PvP players around the world.  If the opinions of lower skilled players were taken into account, the tier lists would be all over the place.

 

 It sounds like your tier list is more about low effort, high reward as top tier and high effort, moderate reward at the lower end (generally).  If that is the case, I would definitely agree with your assessment.

[Nyaha]

9 hours ago, Zekken said:

 It sounds like your tier list is more about low effort, high reward as top tier and high effort, moderate reward at the lower end (generally).  If that is the case, I would definitely agree with your assessment.

I am looking on classes as an average player. I don't think topic starter is on the level of highest korean players, and so are other 99.99% of the player base.
Also, korean top players put SUM on the lowest rank. But look how SUMs are performing on arena. Look at their ranking. Look how many SUMs where in the EU tournament. And now... how many FMs did you see there? Huh? None? Wow... Now, how could that happend?.. :) 

[Zekken]

4 hours ago, Nyaha said:

I am looking on classes as an average player. I don't think topic starter is on the level of highest korean players, and so are other 99.99% of the player base.
Also, korean top players put SUM on the lowest rank. But look how SUMs are performing on arena. Look at their ranking. Look how many SUMs where in the EU tournament. And now... how many FMs did you see there? Huh? None? Wow... Now, how could that happend?.. :) 

Fair enough.  I think there weren't many SUM or FMs in the tournament because people tend to choose the easiest path.  The current meta for 3v3 is WL and BD with the third member being debatable (DES/SIN).

 

FM is a difficult class to play at the highest level.  Why would anyone want to subject themselves to that when they could just as easily pick up WL or BD and get similar results faster?

 

I see the mentality similar to that of the situation that KD or LBJ are in.  KD had a good shot at a ring in OKC, but it would require a whole lot of work.  Then he was given the opportunity to join a great team that pretty much guaranteed a ring.  People hated on him for taking the easy route, but he only cared about the end result.  He took the path of least resistance.  LBJ stayed in the Eastern Conference where a path to the Finals is far easier than in the West.  If winning rings is the end goal, why would he ever want to go to a team in the Western Conference?

 

To some people, the end result is the only thing that matters.  If people can take shortcuts/find easier ways to get to that goal, they will.

[N3ro]

We dont even have that many good FMs. We "have" chloroform, who cant participate in official EU tournies as he is russian or something like that i believe. Intro was a caster. Glacier was at gamescom too, but i think he didnt even play. Much like myself. Kinda seems like if ryuki didnt play in the tournie sin would be considered weak too. I mean naegi got rekt too, right?

 

Maybe we will see chrolo in worlds. I dont know what he is doing... Really he would need a *GOOD* team as well. Like top tier bd especially. I think FMs do really well with bds, because they can utilize the aerials so well and you need some class that brings good saves witch bds does amazingly well and probably has the best aerials too. Then you have another slot. So just bring an op WAR because why not, right? xD Maybe sin/kfm/des/summ. I think bm/sf are just strictly worse and war has an edge. Then you can go win the tournies with your FM no problem. You cant really base your class balance theories purely on tournament results, there is a lot more to it than just that.

[Captain WeebM@ster]

37 minutes ago, N3ro said:

We dont even have that many good FMs. We "have" chloroform, who cant participate in official EU tournies as he is russian or something like that i believe.

6

He is Ukrainian so I'm not sure why is he not allowed to participate, I know for sure he's not on any Russian team.

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 Really he would need a *GOOD* team as well. Like top tier bd especially. I think FMs do really well with bds, because they can utilize the aerials 

1

 sins will also be really good once we get ult skills, sins can web + FM ult =killer combo

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You cant really base your class balance theories purely on tournament results, there is a lot more to it than just that.

1

Deciding class rankings PURELY based on tournaments is wrong, I agree, but tournaments do show you what classes get picked when people pick solely based on what they think is most op(most likely to win the prize money) and get them the wins(at least that's how most KR teams think before they form). the only other objective way you can decide on how good or bad a class is, is the PVP rankings in all regions and those have not shown good results for FMS either.

[Nyaha]

8 hours ago, Captain WeebM@ster said:

He is Ukrainian so I'm not sure why is he not allowed to participate, I know for sure he's not on any Russian team.

Ukraine can officially play only on RU server. And so do some other countries like Georgia and Belarus. So it's logical that he can not participate in EU turnament.

 

Anyway as i said - it's not only about top players. They have their own balance. And no one should consider their balance recommendations to use in casual play. Because it will not work. No matter how many times a korean player will say that SUMs are the weakest class - they will still be OP for regular player. And not only for regular - i saw a bunch of times where top players suffered from summoners and struggled to fight them off.