Nerf BM

[babeln]

On 9. 10. 2016 at 2:58 AM, DannyInfect said:

BM is supposed to be a tank, but they always do top DPS in parties! and in pvp, by the Soul of my blade, they are just insane with their Damage, Like fighting a BM is just like insane and scary. If you screw up you're gonna lose a buttload of health in mere seconds. The BM has become a bit OP with flametongue and becomes a Tank/DPS class

Oh well, BM just became Tera brawler. Seems top dps tank class is optimal for korean moneymaking, or smthing lol.

10 hours ago, Devilwithin said:

I wonder why people are overly salty about BMs dps?

Does it hurt your epeen so bad that you can no longer brag and shittalk you are pro?

But but... They are supposed to tank. Q.Q and shit.

kinda agree with this, same as with brawlers in tera, its good to have them in party. I remember times, when second BM from asura4 pug was sure kick, cause they could only tank, their dps was kinda lowest.

[vita]

Players that complains BM having high dps fail to realize that having high dps + threat multiplier is what allows BM/KFM to be able to tank. Without that DPS a high dps class will just grab agro from BM/KFM. This is not your trinity based game, this is a game where every class is a dps class but are given different type of utilities so that they can take on extra roles. Rather than thinking of BM/KFM as tank, think of them as agro holder instead which can be done by any class with high dps, but a BM/KFM can do it better with their given utilities.

[Southwind]

3 hours ago, vita said:

Players that complains BM having high dps fail to realize that having high dps + threat multiplier is what allows BM/KFM to be able to tank. Without that DPS a high dps class will just grab agro from BM/KFM. This is not your trinity based game, this is a game where every class is a dps class but are given different type of utilities so that they can take on extra roles. Rather than thinking of BM/KFM as tank, think of them as agro holder instead which can be done by any class with high dps, but a BM/KFM can do it better with their given utilities.

And what's the problem in making BM skills more threat-generating without giving them insance dmg output? Like in almost every other game. 

[Avalyn]

Why do you care if someone's class is doing high DPS? Just swallow your ego and realize that it's good for the run.

[Southwind]

Cause game should be balanced, and such unbalance affects solo pve content, and PvP. 

As it comes to group PvE, such unbalance makes certain classes harder to find party. For example Soul Fighters, they have almost 0 usefull party utility. 

[MushinKFM]

As KFM main I have to tell you.

 

Arena:

 

BM just glides and trys to find stun opportunity, dragontongue right after 70-50%hp down

 

BM does 1 stun followed by dragontongue 3x and HM block for safemode =another 30% and tab escape use after BM trying to chain CC.

 

BM Q/SS waiting for Five point strike opener and uses HM Z followed by shitty DT.

 

Yeah if I had better reflexes and better ping I could've had a chance but..

If I as a KFM respec to Buff skill I need at least 2-3 stuns to get enemy down and having Cr Buff instead of ice against BM now is like calling for suicide since you gotta have it to at least be safe from HM Z sometimes

[vita]

26 minutes ago, Southwind said:

And what's the problem in making BM skills more threat-generating without giving them insance dmg output? Like in almost every other game. 

Only if the game makes BM/KFM true tank and tanking is a require in all dungeons. But you will still have the problem that if there are two BM or KFM one will be kick since they will do low damage and is no longer a DPS class. Keep in mind that all classes in this game are DPS first, anything else second. DPS = threat, DPS + threat skill = higher threat, allowing a lower gear BM/KFM to hold agro against a higher DPS class. Also without any taunt/provoke skill losing agro would means the only way to get it back is using high damage and threat multiplier so without being able to do a substantial amount of damage how can a BM/KFM get back agro if they lose it.

 

Are their damage insane, not really, it's only insane in NA/EU because you do not have all the soul/mystic badges, legendary soul shield available yet hence BM looks OP, but once you have that BM is not OP anymore.

[Southwind]

16 minutes ago, vita said:

Only if the game makes BM/KFM true tank and tanking is a require in all dungeons. But you will still have the problem that if there are two BM or KFM one will be kick since they will do low damage and is no longer a DPS class. Keep in mind that all classes in this game are DPS first, anything else second. DPS = threat, DPS + threat skill = higher threat, allowing a lower gear BM/KFM to hold agro against a higher DPS class. Also without any taunt/provoke skill losing agro would means the only way to get it back is using high damage and threat multiplier so without being able to do a substantial amount of damage how can a BM/KFM get back agro if they lose it.

 

Are their damage insane, not really, it's only insane in NA/EU because you do not have all the soul/mystic badges, legendary soul shield available yet hence BM looks OP, but once you have that BM is not OP anymore.

But there can be skills that can be speced to generate threat, so when 2x tank in pt, only one spec them to threat.

Good BM before two boost patches could still keep agroo, even with good FMs/Sins in pt. 

For now its nearly impossible to outdps equal gear BM with fire build, unless you're other BM on fire build. 

 

Edit

and in future Dragontongue will be even boosted:

Awakened Honed Slash/Dragontongue (RB): new skill added.

Dragontongue (RB): add effect – convert 1% damage dealt to HP gain.

 

[vita]

8 minutes ago, Southwind said:

But there can be skills that can be speced to generate threat, so when 2x tank in pt, only one spec them to threat.

Good BM before two boost patches could still keep agroo, even with good FMs/Sins in pt. 

For now its nearly impossible to outdps equal gear BM with fire build, unless you're other BM on fire build. 

What I meant to say is if the BM damage output is low and there is already another BM tanking, why would anyone bring the extra BM as a DPS since their damage output is low. And how low the damage should be compare to other DPS classes?

 

Anyway this DPS chart is from Black Skyscraper raid, the highest FM and the highest BM are similarly geared, sorry can't get a better image. But you can clearly see the FM outdps the BM, the other FM is not as geared, doesn't have elemental accessories yet.

 

[Southwind]

@vita but we are talking about current situation, not about one raid from future content, when one FM outdps-ed BM.

Plus, Black Skyscreaper raid dmg highly depends on the mechanics, there are two buffs you get by standing in certain places, one is +100% attack, second is -50% attack, so this is not good sample if we are talking about balance. And we can't see gear of those players. 

[vita]

13 minutes ago, Southwind said:

@vita but we are talking about current situation, not about one raid from future content, when one FM outdps-ed BM.

Plus, Black Skyscreaper raid dmg highly depends on the mechanics, there are two buffs you get by standing in certain places, one is +100% attack, second is -50% attack, so this is not good sample if we are talking about balance. And we can't see gear of those players. 

You can blame NCWest for bring skill changes without bringing in the proper gear to go with it because the skill patch NA/EU gear is not meant for your current gear.

 

Also there is no buff gain for players in that raid, only the blue boss gain def buff if it eats the same color line but that did not happen in this run as that would usually means a wipe since we did not have full 24 man for that run. The FM is tanking, the BM is pure DPS-ing, as I know both players and been raiding with them since the start of this raid, their gear are similar, probably both are missing 1 elemental accessories but the rest are close enough to compare their DPS. Oh one plays in TW and the other in SG, so the TW BM player have ping advantage.

[StrykersGaming]

59 minutes ago, Southwind said:

And what's the problem in making BM skills more threat-generating without giving them insance dmg output? Like in almost every other game. 

Because they are not a tank spec. They are a Melee DPS spec that can maintain aggro with the amount of DPS they generate. I main a BM. I have no way to mitigate massive damage other than using i-frames and blocks. If they were a true tank, they'd have the ability to mitigate damage.

 

I've tanked for all my time playing MMOs. In SWTOR, I tanked as a Immortal Jugg and Guardian Knight. Tanked in CoH/CoV, tanked GW2 as I could. They all had special gear or skills and abilities that mitigated damage in some shape or form. You do not have that in this game. You must have evasion, defense, and block. The problem with that is all player's toons have those exact same abilities. This game was not designed to follow the MMO Trinity meta.

 

The OP, you and the others need to realize that there are no true tanks in this game, only those who can pull and keep aggro based on skills specifically specced to increase threat to do that. However, even that is not guaranteed to work when you have someone like a FM, BD, SF, or some other high DPS generating class. When people set aside this innate belief that BM/KFM are tanks, then maybe they'd understand the role of these two classes. Tanks they are not, threat generating DPS machines, they are.

6 hours ago, Mythbinder said:

I don't think most of these people have ever been a Tank.

I've played Tank roles in several MMO's, and progression Tank in WOW:BC and WoLK and Rift: Storm Legion and NT.

 

Tanks have skills and gear that reduce, adsorb, or deflect large amounts of damage. High armor ratings, huge HP pools, high defense/Guard or some other skill that reduces damage taken. Tanks have taunts. Yes they do keep the bosses attention and direct the flow a fight as well. But that's only a portion of what it is to be a tank.

 

..........  Let's go down your rabbit hole.

 

So in most Trinity based games Tanks do less damage as a trade off for their mitigation, damage deflection, high defense and HP pools.

As a BM in BnS I have none of these.

 

What are you going to give me in trade for low DPS? 

Double the normal HP pool, Defense, Evasion, and Crit Defense?  And a Taunt! If I'm gonna Tank I need a Taunt for emergency use.

That sounds fair. Lets do it.

 

......... OH Wait

Then you cry BM's are impossible to kill in PvP..  Ah well at least I'm really a Tank now and deserve low DPS.

 

BnS does not have Tanks it has DPS classes with various utilities to make fights possible. Having Threat skills as utility is not a reasonable trade off for low DPS. Threat skills don't do anything for a Class. Just allows them to be a useful part of a Party.

This is an exceptional description and explanation of the facts surrounding tanking and this game's non-tank meta. +1

[Mythbinder]

30 minutes ago, Southwind said:

But there can be skills that can be speced to generate threat, so when 2x tank in pt, only one spec them to threat.

 

 

This is not possible the skills required to do good DPS are also the skills that have +threat. If a BM avoided all +threat skills in their build, they would do zilch for DPS.

[Southwind]

@DamnedYankee And You don't see a problem with class who makes more dmg with one spammable skill than second class in pt with all skills combined? OF course no, cause ith's your main, noone wants a nerf. There for sure is a way to help BMs keep agroo other than that, as i said by adding threat increase stats to skills. I have Destroyer in my clan who can easly tank bosses just by that. So why BM can't?

15 minutes ago, vita said:

You can blame NCWest for bring skill changes without bringing in the proper gear to go with it because the skill patch NA/EU gear is not meant for your current gear.

And who i am blaming? Forum is right place to do it. In response for tickets they said You need to make thread on forum, cause devs are reading it...

 

16 minutes ago, vita said:

Also there is no buff gain for players in that raid

Yes there is, on first boss. 

http://www.freedomplays.com/blade-soul-black-skyscraper-guide/

[vita]

That DPS chart was from the 3rd boss not the first boss, sorry I should have mention that.

 

Considering that Midnight Skypetal will only be coming to NA/EU end of this year, NA/EU players will have to live with the OP BM till next year when they get the rest of the soul/mystic badge. Cause I doubt NCWest can do anything about skill patch or request one that only affect NA/EU and not other regions.

[StrykersGaming]

12 minutes ago, Southwind said:

@DamnedYankee And You don't see a problem with class who makes more dmg with one spammable skill than second class in pt with all skills combined? OF course no, cause ith's your main, noone wants a nerf. There for sure is a way to help BMs keep agroo other than that, as i said by adding threat increase stats to skills. I have Destroyer in my clan who can easly tank bosses just by that. So why BM can't?

News flash for you Southwind, I have all 9 classes in this game. I play them all. My BM was the first to reach level 50 and now HM 10. I learned the game playing my BM. The fact that someone would decry, QQ, salty about BM 'because it is a tank class,' is absurd. It. Is. Not. A. Tank. When you and the others crying for this class to be nerfed based on a flaw perception, is utterly ridiculous.

 

Let me give you a history lesson on nerfing. I'll use SWTOR. It is the best example. After launch thousands upon thousands of players played the Sorcerer/Sage classes. PvP players were raising hell about how OP these classes were because they were being blown up and couldn't get to them for the lightning/pebble attacks they were suffering. Where they OP? No, they were not. The problem was the game just launched, people did not understand the game mechanics or proper counters to these pure glass cannons range DPS classes. Then after 4 months they dropped update 1.2 that literally nerf both classes into the ground making them the single most useless advanced classes to play in the game. Shortly there after, 1.5 million subscriptions were lost and SWTOR was forced to go F2P.

 

I know this as fact as I was there at launch, I played a Sorcerer and Sage almost exclusively. All those servers were ghost towns they were forced to merge them shortly thereafter. It took BioWare almost 4 years to bring these two classes back to some semblance of what they were before the great nerf. This is what happens when people cry, *cricket*, moan, QQ, pour their salty tears on forums, reddit, emails to customer service, and in general chat.

 

But the point this this: BMs aren't tanks. People complaining they are OP because of the amount of damage they do is because they do not know how to counter a BM. Why don't you and the others decry the Assassin? Ever seen what one can do? And you want to claim the BM is OP based on it being a tank? Your logic, perception, and premise all hing on the fact the BM and KFM are tanks. Neither one are. There are NO TANK CLASSES in this game. There are no damage mitigation mechanics in this game as you find in games with true tanks. You know so much about this game and make a claim like that? All because they can generate threat?

 

The great threat generators in MMOs are and always have been DPS classes. Tanks only generate threat by using specific defensive (key word here) skills, single and AOE taunts to grab and hold aggro. There is no such skill or ability in this game. When you and the other detractors realize this, then and only then will you understand the role of these two classes; in your face melee specialists that generate great amount of DPS to allow the range DPS classes to help take down mobs and bosses.

 

There is NO other reasoning or explanation you or the others can give that justify your flawed perception about these classes. You all are just plain wrong.

 

Tell you what, put up your current class and start from scratch and play BM or KFM exclusively, then you might better understand their role to help dispel your premise about them being tanks.

[Southwind]

@DamnedYankee Ok, so all ppl who are thinking BM&KFM are tanks are wrong? Hmm it will be like 90% of server. I don't really care about group PvE balance as far i can still find pt to make dailys or farm endgame stuff. But in PvP or solo PVE balance is important. At 1vs1 arena you have 40k hp, Dragontounge can crit there 11k+, still not op for You?

So check EU/NA pvp ranking, count classes, then look at the class population, and You will see who is op and who is not. Even last KR torunament was won by BM so easy.

[Devilwithin]

Yeah last tournament was won by a BM using lightning build. So is BM op?

 

If you really think bm/kfm are tanks sorry to bust your bubble but they're not. 

How can you be so sure 90% of the server thinks the same way as you?

27 minutes ago, Southwind said:

@DamnedYankeeEven last KR torunament was won by BM so easy.

27 minutes ago, Southwind said:

@DamnedYankee Ok, so all ppl who are thinking BM&KFM are tanks are wrong? Hmm it will be like 90% of server.

[XxXxXxXxXxXxX]

1 hour ago, Southwind said:

But there can be skills that can be speced to generate threat, so when 2x tank in pt, only one spec them to threat.

Good BM before two boost patches could still keep agroo, even with good FMs/Sins in pt. 

For now its nearly impossible to outdps equal gear BM with fire build, unless you're other BM on fire build. 

 

Edit

and in future Dragontongue will be even boosted:

Awakened Honed Slash/Dragontongue (RB): new skill added.

Dragontongue (RB): add effect – convert 1% damage dealt to HP gain.

 

What makes you think you should have more damage than BM. If you are a fm all you do is just sit there and spam buttons no need to iframe almost any of the boss' attacks and if you are a sin you just go in stealth and dps the boss without worrying about aggro while BMs or KFMs have to deal all of the boss' attacks and keep the aggro. Nor BM neither KFM isn't tank, get over it. Any decent player can do the same amount of damage except destroyers and maybe blade dancers.

 

One more thing, all these crybabies were just fine when BM had the lowest damage possible before dragontongue update and now that they have decent damage pugs are freaking out.

[Southwind]

20 minutes ago, XxXxXxXxXxXxX said:

What makes you think you should have more damage than BM.

Where i said i should have better dps? DPS should be simmilar with equal gear, or at least there should be rule like: more defensive utility=lower dps, less defensive utility=higher dps. BM hase both, highest dps atm + tons of defensive utility, making them easy mode class, which summoner used to be, and at some point still is.

 

(Every argument against = QQ, welcome to the internet...)

[StrykersGaming]

17 minutes ago, Southwind said:

Where i said i should have better dps? DPS should be simmilar with equal gear, or at least there should be rule like: more defensive utility=lower dps, less defensive utility=higher dps. BM hase both, highest dps atm + tons of defensive utility, making them easy mode class, which summoner used to be, and at some point still is.

 

(Every argument against = QQ, welcome to the internet...)

You really need to play a BM from the start so you can better understand what it is you are talking about. Because right now you are making remarks based on little to no experience with the class other than hearsay, observation, or rumors. If you're this upset about a BM you don't want to get involved with a BD.

[Southwind]

12 minutes ago, DamnedYankee said:

You are making remarks based on little to no experience with the class other than hearsay, observation, or rumors. 

What? :D Just look at Infinity Tower and 1vs1 ranking in EU/NA. Two reliable ones as its solo play. BM's are just about 10% of population, and how many of them are in the ranks? 

 

BMs from my clan agreed the class was boosted to much.

I agree they needed boost, since they was at the bottom before, but not such large boost.

[Mythbinder]

22 minutes ago, Southwind said:

, or at least there should be rule like: more defensive utility=lower dps, less defensive utility=higher dps.

That's our point BM's in Fact do Not have more defensive skills the other classes. They in fact have none that some other classes don't also have access to.  They are not even the class with the most iFrames.

[StrykersGaming]

21 minutes ago, Southwind said:

What? :D Just look at Infinity Tower and 1vs1 ranking in EU/NA. Two reliable ones as its solo play. BM's are just about 10% of population, and how many of them are in the ranks? 

 

BMs from my clan agreed the class was boosted to much.

I agree they needed boost, since they was at the bottom before, but not such large boost.

And what that tells me is people have no clear understanding how to counter a BM when in combat against one. BM, like the KFM, Destroyer, and BD, are in your face melee specialists. The Assassins, while depend on melee, are a different bred all together using stealth, ninja like skills, and tricks. They cannot smash mouth fight like the aforementioned classes. The BM and KFM are at the top of the list because they excel in melee fighting.

 

People wondered why I play all the classes. Easy, to know and understand them. I learned this from one of the best PVP players in SWTOR. In any PVP environment you must know the capabilities of your opponent. If you do not, you will not be successful against them. Do you know the weakness of a BM and KFM? If not, you should learn it. What is the Achilles heal of a pure melee class? Do you know this? If not, you need to find out. When you know these short comings you will be able to use it against them. I'd share them with you but you and the others need to learn for yourselves. The only true way to do so, is play that class. It will become readily apparent after a period of time.

 

This is the only true way to understand the other classes in this game; play the other classes until you have a solid grasp on what makes them tick and work and what is their weaknesses. When you do that, words like 'OP' fade away because you know how to fight this class. Right now, you do not know how the classes work, their short comings, weaknesses. You only see their strengths.

[882184_1452550488]

this  thread is so much bm lovers in it ;D , problem with BM is that they have to much in their kit atm.