Nerf SIN vs KFM

[Rexile]

Allright, let the salt begin..

 

TOPIC: SIN vs KFM

 

I'll do my best to explain this topic in the most neutral way possible.

As we're all playing different classes in PvP arena, we've already made a picture of what classes counters which, and surely enough every class has one or more counters, but favors you in a matchup where your specific class is a counter. This is all natural to try and keep a slight balance in the game's pvp system, even tho completely balanced is far from true, something we'll all have to accept, cuz that's "mission impossible". Anyways, I wanna talk about the KFM vs SIN matchup, and I wanna hear your thoughts about it..

 

I, myself, am a KFM in the 2k+ rating, and from my own perspective and from my own opinion, I can say this matchup is pure hell. I'm far from the best, and I have A LOT to learn, but as mentioned, this matchup is literally PURE hell. To me it feels like you put a cat vs a mouse, fire vs water.. you get the point.

A counter class is supposed to give you a hard time, definitely, to keep the balance in a game, but let's be serious here.. this is not " a hard time ".. spend 5 min in PvP Lobby and you'll see golds, platinums and diamonds complaining about SIN. The thing is, in most cases you'll have to tab yourself, to force their tab, and even if u manage to do so, they have their lotus flower for a 2nd escape, which is somewhat fair, but the fact that the lotus flower has the same COOLDOWN as the time you actually have it available if u dont use it, is pretty overpowered, because after all, it IS a 2nd cc break (tab, trinket), which is 20secs.. cmon? Every tab is 36 sec, and look at Destroyers, they have 2 cc breakers aswell, but their 2nd cc break CD is longer than their tab, which makes it all fair, annoying, but it's still fair.. Also, if the assassin has good reactions, they don't even need the lotus flower, they can just go with the new KFM buff you guys gave them (which was completely dumb IMO) and kill you. The way they do it, they web you and you either refuse to tab and watch urself die in 30 sec, or you tab and watch urself die in 5-10 sec.. There's barely ANY room for counterplay, and IF you do know of some counterplay to it, FOR high rated players, not some sort of 1600 rating strategy which works 1 outta 10 times, I would LOVE to hear about it.

 

Allright, well, this is just a tiny bit of what I wanted to say about this case, but I wanna hear your thoughts aswell, and I really hope to see some change, the thing

[XianRen]

I don't see how you are supposed to nerf sin just against KFM.   I get that it is a harsh match up for KFM, but you are essentially complaining about getting blown up while playing a class that specializes in blowing people up.  Getting 100-0'd by a KFM because your tab was down is not fun for the other side either.

[Rexile]

Nah, but my point is, AS a kfm, you have to work your way up to the point where you force them to tab. Sin goes insta invis, stuns u, webs u and u have to use ur tab. We have to tech chase, be cautious about spins for example, counters blablabla, even ground counter fks us up after we stun sometimes..? PLUS we have such a high risk of actually failing out all in, compared to assassins.

 

But I do understand the point of no fun being 100-0'ed, but after all, thats ur own fault for triggering that tab too quickly or unneccessarily.

In KFM vs SIN matchup, you just CANT hold on to ur tab and you just CANT use ur tab, you'll die either way, lol.

[BigJ01]

Well i can already tell you that you're playing wrong if you decide to tab as soon as you're webbed, then they can bait you everytime and 100-0 you since you wasted tab for nothing.

[Rexile]

Of course I wait for a couple of cc's afterwards, also, no reason to try and be a wiseass =)

[Farrangis]

Did you forget about BM? To be honest, I hate sin just like you and I agree to your point of view. However, KFM is still in top tier, there's not even a single BM in top 50 in NA except Cassis is in 2400+ and he's just exceptional, but still not in top 50. Let's admit it, I hate to say it but almost everyone know that BM is trash tier. Many people play BM for the cool skill animation but eventually quit and move on with different class for easy way out. If there's any class in this game to complain, I think only BM deserve the right to complain. Sum counter BM hard as well as Sin. BM put in so much effort to win a match with knowing your own class and other classes whereas other classes can just make so many mistakes and still almost win the game. 

 

Sin wasted tab? No problem, use flower. I literally see a lot of sin in 2000+ elo wasted tab on daze like they don't even care.

LBD wasted tab? pfft, what a joke!? Use Maelstrom, malestrom is on cd? Just use the sword lying around. That is on cd too? Use 4 slash iframe thing. Then do damage and rinse and repeat since their iframe skill has similar cooldown time so it's just back up all over again.

Summoner, don't even get me started. But they should be easy on KFM.

 

KFM is similar to BM with only 2 escapes,  tab and f roll. You have your blue buff so does BM with Blade Call. But Blade call after cast just stay in one spot whereas blue buff is with you. So unless the target wasted both tab and froll or else blade call is useless. 

 

Just to make sure to you that I am with you on this subject. I am just typing this to vent out my frustration too but oh well.... I guess practice make perfect for us haha.

[Netson]

lmao this topic is hilarious get ur *cricketing* facts straight

if you dont know the buf that sins have that is in the same lvl as kfm buf uses up our lotus flower so no we dont get 2 tabs if we use the buff we are using up our lotus flower escape space and even if lotus flower is speced it is not a tab because we cant escape grabs if lotus flower is on.

if they were to nerf sins because u cant handle them then nerf kfms/bms blocks you can spam blocks and ive even seen people ani canceling blocks with kfms(idk how the heck is possible probably hacks) and i hit but i get countered by a *cricket* ani canceled block

also if i was ncsoft i would totally remove ani cancel in arena untill they get their *cricketing* work done because almost every kfm/destro i see in arena are using obvious 10ms macros that kill you in 5secs less.

since this patch this is not anymore an issue on my sin but it still is bad on my wl.

[SuGenma]

I know how you feel brah. Im 1850+ kfm player who can beat every class exept sin. Iv tested almost everything. The only thing i learn from other players is when u have that sticky sh!t stuck in your back, you need to turn back and counterblock. But this wont win you the game, only drag it more and get pissed on. OOh the tab thing, even if you force them to tab, they just go invis, slow you,poke you, web you till their tab is back. And the class counters kfm so hard. While they are invis there is a chance they evade aoe attacks, which we have high cd's on. So most of the time i hug corners and pray they wont kick me in the face while i beg god that they dont break my block and countered back. Other then that have fun timing your tab against their cc's, It doesn't matter. THey shit on you if u dont use tab. And if you use tab they kill you faster.. As a kfm lets just pray that we get our rising dragon tier 5 stage 2 asap. Until then just bite the pillow :3

[Kaal]

9 hours ago, XianRen said:

I don't see how you are supposed to nerf sin just against KFM.   I get that it is a harsh match up for KFM, but you are essentially complaining about getting blown up while playing a class that specializes in blowing people up.  Getting 100-0'd by a KFM because your tab was down is not fun for the other side either.

KFM cannot 100-0 an assassin. Only with Fighting Spirit buff can you 100-0 someone. But instead of Fighting Spirit a KFM must keep Ice Guard vs Sins at all times. That's the only sure way to unstealth them.

[Voikukka]

6 hours ago, Netson said:

we cant escape grabs if lotus flower is on.

Yes you can, or did I just not understand you correctly?

 

6 hours ago, Netson said:

ive even seen people ani canceling blocks with kfms

You are probably talking about Elbow smash (counter form 2). You can spam it much faster than other forms of counter.

 

6 hours ago, Netson said:

if i was ncsoft i would totally remove ani cancel in arena untill they get their *cricketing* work done because almost every kfm/destro i see in arena are using obvious 10ms macros that kill you in 5secs less.

 

This would break pretty much all combos in the game. They might as well take all skillpoints away and make us use lmb only. Besides, you can potentially use anicancel macros on all classes. Every single class uses anicanceling in pvp.

 

6 hours ago, Netson said:

mao this topic is hilarious get ur *cricketing* facts straight

How about you do that too.

[InstantDeath]

As an assassin, i admit that assassin has an advantage aganist kfms. But if you really want assassins to be nerfed just because they have advantage against kfms, i also want blade dancers to be nerfed against assassins for the very same reason. Oh wait, i have also a blade dancer and it's really weak against Warlocks, i want Warlocks to be nerfed agains BDs. Warlocks want summoners to be nerfed, Summoners want Destroyers to be nerfed, Destroyers want KFMs to be nerfed.... You get the point.

[Netson]

5 hours ago, Voikukka said:

Yes you can, or did I just not understand you correctly?

 

You are probably talking about Elbow smash (counter form 2). You can spam it much faster than other forms of counter.

 

 

This would break pretty much all combos in the game. They might as well take all skillpoints away and make us use lmb only. Besides, you can potentially use anicancel macros on all classes. Every single class uses anicanceling in pvp.

 

How about you do that too.

well seems it changed be4 u couldnt escape from grapple with lotus escape but even still the main point here is we either get the lotus escape or we get the fighting spirit buff so im still 80% correct.

[Fael]

4 hours ago, InstantDeath said:

Warlocks want summoners to be nerfed

No, Warlocks also want SINs (and FMs) to be nerfed. Summoners is one of our potentially best match-ups, but we can't do anything against a SIN not played terribly. 

[Rexile]

4 hours ago, InstantDeath said:

As an assassin, i admit that assassin has an advantage aganist kfms. But if you really want assassins to be nerfed just because they have advantage against kfms, i also want blade dancers to be nerfed against assassins for the very same reason. Oh wait, i have also a blade dancer and it's really weak against Warlocks, i want Warlocks to be nerfed agains BDs. Warlocks want summoners to be nerfed, Summoners want Destroyers to be nerfed, Destroyers want KFMs to be nerfed.... You get the point.

I see your point sir, but answer this question honestly.. enter PvP Lobby, find a sheet of paper and write down the number of how many times each class name was mentioned. Majority of this game, regardless of their class or rating, from the bottom of their heart, disgusts assassins to the core. (FYI, assassin will be on top of that list, with summoner up close) ;)

2 hours ago, Netson said:

well seems it changed be4 u couldnt escape from grapple with lotus escape but even still the main point here is we either get the lotus escape or we get the fighting spirit buff so im still 80% correct.

I already knew u sacrificed one or another of those skills.

The point is, i had 2-3 Assassins discuss this over PvP Lobby, too bad I didnt screenshot it, but they we're all like :

"You don't need damage vs kfm, blue buff is stupid vs kfm, just go with flower to annoy them a bit more, lol"

[PatchKid]

OP - I think you're stuck in the 100-0 playstyle...  This is probably not the best strategy vs a Sin.  Fight a Sin more by being technical.  Use your air combos, meteor slam, and draw the fight out longer.  The longer you keep them out of stealth and wasting their escapes on things like ground&pound, the better.  Sins rely heavily on timing their combos.  Any interruption to that timing will work wonders.  Whittle them down piece by piece and remember to use counter while they're in stealth.

 

Also, be sure to use the jump + 180 degree turn + counter tactic after they use their shiruken.  This gives you a high % chance to block their daze from stealth when they hit you in the back and can knock them out of stealth completely throwing off their timing.

[Kam Bo]

23 hours ago, SuGenma said:

 As a kfm lets just pray that we get our rising dragon tier 5 stage 2 asap. Until then just bite the pillow :3

This is what our SIN match up boils down to.... This is the one move that helps us deal.... Just wait it out!  (Unfortunately)

[Rexile]

http://postimg.org/image/4cc2gt30x/

 

here's from when i sparred a diamond sin, i censored the name just incase.

It's pretty sad when even assassin players admit the major difference..

[Moistz]

10 minutes ago, Rexile said:

http://postimg.org/image/d9lrh4fwd/

 

here's from when i sparred a diamond sin, i censored the name just incase.

It's pretty sad when even assassin players admit the major difference..

you do realize it says the name right there above

 and you targeted him

[Rexile]

wops, lol, fail.

[Rexile]

1 hour ago, Moistz said:

you do realize it says the name right there above

 and you targeted him

pls remove the link =)

[Kaal]

The simple solution would be for Counter to unstealth Assassins. Because when you counter, you deal tiny bit of damage back to the attacker. And with damage skills you have 50% chance to unstealth assassins anyways. Why doesn't counter do that already is a mystery to me.

[InstantDeath]

23 hours ago, Rexile said:

I see your point sir, but answer this question honestly.. enter PvP Lobby, find a sheet of paper and write down the number of how many times each class name was mentioned. Majority of this game, regardless of their class or rating, from the bottom of their heart, disgusts assassins to the core. (FYI, assassin will be on top of that list, with summoner up close) ;)

You couldn't be more wrong. All the hate goes for Blade Dancers and Summoners.

[Kaal]

56 minutes ago, InstantDeath said:

You couldn't be more wrong. All the hate goes for Blade Dancers and Summoners.

You couldn't be more wrong. Unless you imagine that the tears of silver, low gold ranked players amount to much.

[Netson]

On 04/04/2016 at 2:51 PM, Rexile said:

I see your point sir, but answer this question honestly.. enter PvP Lobby, find a sheet of paper and write down the number of how many times each class name was mentioned. Majority of this game, regardless of their class or rating, from the bottom of their heart, disgusts assassins to the core. (FYI, assassin will be on top of that list, with summoner up close) ;)

I already knew u sacrificed one or another of those skills.

The point is, i had 2-3 Assassins discuss this over PvP Lobby, too bad I didnt screenshot it, but they we're all like :

"You don't need damage vs kfm, blue buff is stupid vs kfm, just go with flower to annoy them a bit more, lol"

lol like really?

i play sin i never use flower vs kfm i like to speed up things so i go with the buff however idk why the cricket every kfm i fight just destealths me right away how the heck they know where i am? i know we are not 100% invisible but its hard to notice just transparent at max settings then for some reason they also counter me preciselly wen i use my teleport stun skills(the kunai that spawns u behind the enemy and dazes/bolt strike and then i go like oh f ill just go perma stealth+poison from distance and end up winning 90% of the matches like this vs kfms 5% are the ones that dont use hacks that i win the other 5% is the rest that i cant win that i guess that either are using macros or are derankers.

however i also play sin at 60~90ms so it might also be the conection thats not that great for a class like sin

[Netson]

On 05/04/2016 at 0:34 PM, Kaal said:

The simple solution would be for Counter to unstealth Assassins. Because when you counter, you deal tiny bit of damage back to the attacker. And with damage skills you have 50% chance to unstealth assassins anyways. Why doesn't counter do that already is a mystery to me.

lol because on stealth we can only be parried not really countered theres already too much of counter spams from every class that can abuse block/counter

lets say i throw a star from range u counter i get stunned(already happens)and destealthed(doesnt happen)? what the sense of it? its already a big penalty that we get from a ranged atack that deals almost no dmg. tell me how many real players would be able to counter sins teleport skills with right timing without spaming counter and hope for a lucky counter?

i guess none since except for kfm bots and hackers ive never seen a legit kfm doing a perfect counter on any of those the position where the sin appear/speed of atack is so high that if u couldnt spam counter u wouldnt have a chance to counter it because u would be startled by the speed of atack/change on the screen. give a 3sec CD on kfm and thats enough to ruin the class. if u go against ranged they will force u to use the counter and during the next 2secs u would take a s***load dmg as any other class would do.

for example do u see bladecancers? do u know why most sins strugle against them? if u think its because of the spin destealth ure wrong(im talking abt spin2win ones) its the fking parry on their spin however what most doesnt know is that if u wait a tiny bit(0.5sec) the spin will never parry at the start of every spin for 0.5 sec any atack that hits it will be parried but if u wait the 0.5 he is free to be attacked/cced.

all u need to do is know the oponents skills i dont like to go browse on the net for skills for classes i dont play so either i learn by fighting in the arena or i ask to someone for help vs X class.

wen i started i strugled with my sin vs spin2win destro and bd and sumoners

now i dont have any issue against most but my uncontrolled reflexes screw me most of the times and thats why i dont get ranked up faster.