PvP is broken, just stop having hope

[Electroflux]

2 minutes ago, FMP said:

again, what are you crying about ? you want them to nerf the dmg so the perma stunlock becomes meaningless ? and then every monkey like you go wastingtheir tab escape mindlessly without even caring to lose

 

So you're implying every diamond player he's dominated in EU, is just a baddie and doesn't know how to tab escape properly?  Hm.  I smell fanboy here.

I should also add, that yes, they should nerf perma stunlock because that should never be a thing in any game.

[FMP]

11 minutes ago, Electroflux said:

 

So you're implying every diamond player he's dominated in EU, is just a baddie and doesn't know how to tab escape properly?  Hm.  I smell fanboy here.

I should also add, that yes, they should nerf perma stunlock because that should never be a thing in any game.

another brainless monkey commenting, i didn't even watch the video in the link only 1st fight n i saw the hp dropping from 100% to 0% what actually should happen is making this harder. how ? only thing i could think about is not letting stuns over stun happen, which means if you were stunned for two seconds then the enemy used another 2sec stun skill on you it doesn't reset back to 2seconds stun, that would make the pvp really interesting and way harder for brainless monkeys like you to stunlock, u'll end up  quitting anyway 

[Electroflux]

Just now, FMP said:

another brainless monkey commenting, i didn't even watch the video in the link only 1st fight n i saw the hp dropping from 100% to 0% what actually should happen is making this harder. how ? only thing i could think about is not letting stuns over stun happen, which means if you were stunned for two seconds then the enemy used another 2sec stun skill on you it doesn't reset back to 2seconds stun, that would make the pvp really interesting and way harder for brainless monkeys like you to stunlock, u'll end up  quitting anyway 

 

Honestly, you're not worth the effort.

 

All I need to say is, enjoy your dead game because I can most certainly guarantee you're one of the few braindead fanboys that would support something as bad as this.

[Snowbunny]

Kfm along with destro and bm wait till enemy uses their tab and then strike for a kill.

Neutral game prolongs as long as the opponents tab is used. Then its half min struggle to survive or kill.

 

Out of these 3 kfm has easiest way to start the combo. Starts with either RB or V which penetrate all but iframes

BM must absolutely succeed in tech chase stun/or daze or its all wasted. Lil lag at tht moment and its gg lol.

In destro best case scenario you want to grab opponent to side of arena and then go nuts. Starting combo otherwise carries risk that opponent q or e first stun if you have to charge from far away

 

I won't deny that this is kinda bullshit but yea... He knows that only thing that matter in the match is to wait till opponent use tab :/

I didnt remember it could chew full hp before i saw this. I have memory that its more like closer to 50% but guess it was in lv50 arena

 

 

[Zeykes]

When it comes to Blade & Soul, the combat is fast-paced and CC heavy, similar to many fighting games out there, rather than your traditional MMO combat. Yet it is an MMO and thus will attract MMO players, so this kind of combat may be new to them. In this case it is very understandable that things can seem very unbalanced, but I assure you it's not nearly as bad as you're making it out to be.

 

In a game like this with lots of CC and lots of burst damage, the PvP and the mindset of players is very different from your traditional MMO combat. Here, because stun-locking and massive dps is a thing, PvP becomes much more intense because it's more about baiting your opponent's safe-cards (defensive skills, tab escape and so on) while not committing too many of your cooldowns in the process, and at the same time you want to try and predict your opponents moves and react accordingly. If you successfully make your opponent waste their CC (either by dodging or using defensive skills), their combo potential drops drastically as CCs tend to have fairly high cooldowns in this game. This also works in the other aspect, making your opponent waste their defensive skills, thus increasing your combo potential as they no longer have an escape.

 

This game's PvP is about baiting, predicting and reacting, rather than a traditional MMO which (in a very generalized sense) boils down to who hits first and/or who mashes their buttons the quickest. If you don't like this way of fighting, then I am sorry to say that PvP in this game might just not be for you.

 

Personally, I absolutely enjoy this kind of PvP as it promotes more mindgames and tends to get much more intense than your average MMO. Here you lose because you make mistakes, not simply because your opponent had a higher DPS than you, and I love that. I know there are a LOT of players who really enjoy this combat-style and really loves this game as I do, so the game isn't going to change because you don't like some parts of it, I'm sorry.

 

TL;DR this game is fantastic just as it is (and as it will become with more KR updates), and if you don't like this style of fighting (CCs, baiting etc.) then I am sorry that this game might not be for you, and you may feel like you've wasted time into something you don't like.

[Electroflux]

While I appreciate the thoughtful response, you're implying that you agree that this mechanic, which I'm discussing, where you can 100% to 0% kill someone in one continuous stun chain is "fair"?

 

I hate to say it, but I highly doubt that the general playerbase here will last because of these mechanics.  Just because you and a few others seem to enjoy the playstyle of this game, doesn't entirely mean the general masses will...which evidently kills games, especially MMO's and especially in today's age where there is an abundance of other games to go to.

[Zooks]

I thought I knew what ridiculous amounts of CC and burst damage looked like after playing WoW since S1, but this game puts it to shame lol. I'd rather deal with Stormherald and Mace Spec RNG stuns than the CC in this game. Blew your tab at a slightly inappropriate time? RIP. Still though, it's pretty fun. Just not something I'm ever going to put on tryhard pants for. 

[Zeykes]

20 minutes ago, Electroflux said:

While I appreciate the thoughtful response, you're implying that you agree that this mechanic, which I'm discussing, where you can 100% to 0% kill someone in one continuous stun chain is "fair"?

 

I hate to say it, but I highly doubt that the general playerbase here will last because of these mechanics.  Just because you and a few others seem to enjoy the playstyle of this game, doesn't entirely mean the general masses will...which evidently kills games, especially MMO's and especially in today's age where there is an abundance of other games to go to.

If it wasn't for the fact that the game has abilities to get you out of- and prevent these 100-0 combos from happening, then I'd absolutely agree that it's quite dumb. But we have abilities to i-frame out of and escape these long stunlocks, and that being available immediately makes such a system increadibly skill-based in my honest opinion. I say this because of the mindgames, baiting and so on that this creates. It's also important to keep in mind that classes work very differently in this game.

 

Take KFM for example, they have fairly good defensive utility with their strafes and dodges, but their biggest CCs requires the opponent to already be CC'd in order to pull off effectively. This turns the class into one that, when it catches you, can stunlock you for longer periods and dish out damage while doing so. If you look at a BD/BM for example, their CCs are much more suited for catching (Five Point Strike, Rush, Force Grip and so on), leading the class to a different type of gameplay more aimed at catching, dealing some damage, then catch again.

 

What I'm trying to say is that each class has its advantages and disadvantages and are played very differently, so it's very easy to fall into the trap of tunnel-visioning on another class' advantages, while neglecting the fact that your own class may have advantages that they do not.

[Gamemako]

34 minutes ago, Zeykes said:

When it comes to Blade & Soul, the combat is fast-paced and CC heavy, similar to many fighting games out there, rather than your traditional MMO combat. Yet it is an MMO and thus will attract MMO players, so this kind of combat may be new to them.

 

I would argue that opposite is true. MMO combat is CC-heavy, where fighting games are not. Fighting games either have 1:1 hitstun and design combos for lower percentages (e.g. Street Fighter), or they have reduced hitstun (e.g. MVC3) or damage (e.g. Guilty Gear's guard meter) as the number of attacks in a combo goes up. Being able to kill people in one attack routine has always been considered a failure, and some designers have come up with some really funny systems to combat it (e.g. Skullgirls routine that attempts to detect infinite rotations and punt the attacker back to the other side of the arena). MMO combat, by contrast, has long been dominated by heavy CC, right down to EQ's old mezz routine.

[Zeykes]

5 minutes ago, Gamemako said:

 

I would argue that opposite is true. MMO combat is CC-heavy, where fighting games are not. Fighting games either have 1:1 hitstun and design combos for lower percentages (e.g. Street Fighter), or they have reduced hitstun (e.g. MVC3) or damage (e.g. Guilty Gear's guard meter) as the number of attacks in a combo goes up. Being able to kill people in one attack routine has always been considered a failure, and some designers have come up with some really funny systems to combat it (e.g. Skullgirls routine that attempts to detect infinite rotations and punt the attacker back to the other side of the arena). MMO combat, by contrast, has long been dominated by heavy CC, right down to EQ's old mezz routine.

I should probably have clarified as it's awkward to talk about two different types of games with MMO terms. I was referring to hitstun when I said fighting-games are CC heavy.

And like you said, many games have implemented different systems to combat 100-0 comboing, as this would make it a game of "who hit first" and ruin the fun. But wouldn't you agree that B&S also has exactly that in the form of every class having an escape skill, a panic button that gets you out of any CC whatsoever? These abilities are in the game for the very reason you stated, to prevent people from being able to kill in one combo.

[Zooks]

2 minutes ago, Zeykes said:

I should probably have clarified as it's awkward to talk about two different types of games with MMO terms. I was referring to hitstun when I said fighting-games are CC heavy.

And like you said, many games have implemented different systems to combat 100-0 comboing, as this would make it a game of "who hit first" and ruin the fun. But wouldn't you agree that B&S also has exactly that in the form of every class having an escape skill, a panic button that gets you out of any CC whatsoever? These abilities are in the game for the very reason you stated, to prevent people from being able to kill in one combo.

 

This game is like MVC3. Screw up or get caught out a single time and you get absolutely wrecked. Very punishing. Personally, I prefer games like the Street Fighter and BlazBlue series.

[voodooblade]

9 hours ago, Raiyze said:

 

wtf are you both talking about? this is supposed to be a "mortal kombat"-esque game not a poking and trading game? This isn't league? If the game was poking and trading there would only be FMs and Summoners which I'm 100% sure you both play. 

 

...You can't 1 combo burn someone in 3 seconds in MK. even if they are standing still and jacking off. That's why this game will not be a big Esport in NA. Any game where you can go from 100% to 0 in a flash, seems cheap. 

 

11 hours ago, Gamemako said:

KFMs are actually the easiest class to do this with since they don't have to sacrifice much in the way of defenses to get it. Destroyers can build this way too, but die much more easily as a consequence. All classes have a combo like this.

 

Not true. Not at all. Summoner can't 3 second burn, Assassin can't 3 second burn, BM even with HM skill dropping 580 gold or being lucky, With v damage specced dropped can't 3 second burn. And even if all classes could, which they can't. It doesn't change the fact it's lol worthy. As a Plat BM I have never burned anyone in 4 seconds or less, As a Plat BM if my foe makes an error it's never gg, not unless it's near the end already. If they make a mistake at the opening, they can easily, recover. It takes two mistakes at best for me to line up a sure win.  You make 1 mistakes against kfm, easily gg. Especially with some players using macros. 

[Gamemako]

20 minutes ago, Zeykes said:

And like you said, many games have implemented different systems to combat 100-0 comboing, as this would make it a game of "who hit first" and ruin the fun. But wouldn't you agree that B&S also has exactly that in the form of every class having an escape skill, a panic button that gets you out of any CC whatsoever? These abilities are in the game for the very reason you stated, to prevent people from being able to kill in one combo.

 

If the purpose of the escape were to prevent 100-0 combos, you might expect it to be usable all the time, or at least after a certain number of hits rather than the assumption the any CC can be broken and then it goes on cooldown for a long period. Other games have counter breaks that are similarly time-limited (Guilty Gear reversal at the cost of 1/2 your power gauge), but they also have no 100-0 combos and further limit damage and hit-stun.

 

It's not that games haven't tried doing zero-to-dead before. Bushido Blade did it ages ago, and more recent UFC games have attempted it as well. However, B&S wants to be more of a measured fighting game at heart, like Street Fighter, but allows itself to fall prey to overpowered combos with no inherent counterplay. Powerful attack combinations do exist in such games, but are made with hefty drawbacks, such as a full super bar. B&S has nothing of the sort. That just makes for an unpleasant experience.

 

15 minutes ago, voodooblade said:

Not true. Not at all. Summoner can't 3 second burn, Assassin can't 3 second burn, BM even with HM skill dropping 580 gold or being lucky, With v damage specced dropped can't 3 second burn. And even if all classes could, which they can't. It doesn't change the fact it's lol worthy. As a Plat BM I have never burned anyone in 4 seconds or less,

 

3 seconds? No. Massive damage combos? Yes. Assassin can do 80% to zero under CC -- I had someone (July R, I think the name was?) blow me up like that the other day. I went back to using Persistence after that. Summoner, cat tackles and Summoner tees off with Sunflower, there goes 70% or more of your health. BM are heavily dependent on tech chasing to do theirs, but oh yes, they can very much melt you 100-0 with the HM skill.

[Second]

3 hours ago, fhoeng said:

0-100% combo is broken is true.

 

However, there is tab escape that make it you will NEVER get 0-100% if u use it right. So technically 0-100% combo doesn't exist in BnS.

 

What make this kfm strong is his defensive skills. Those Q/E are godly strong. So even if he has to scratch u 1000 times to kill u, he can do it, because u can't land ur combo.

 

However, the 3rf dps make kfm perfect to noob stomp. Even in real fighting games, it is always the high damage character with good natural defense that is perfect to stomp noob with.

 

If you take away kfm's defensive skills, u can watch this guy get pwn alot more often.

 

However, this game is still broken, because the ping is shit.

100% to 0 isn't really broken, when you know how to punish with your TAB daze.

[ElementBound]

I want to try KFM now :o

[Valiant]

4 hours ago, Waynedetta said:

I see every class in the top 50. So every players should be able to reach that high. The problem is, everyone thinks "iam good i should be there in top10! i loose because my class is week".

Well I not crying about ani-cancel I just say it kill the combat of the game,As I said before when I played destroyer first time I was enjoy using my grab to hit some punch then throw in air then knock them down for another combo it was fun.

 

But now all what I do to win a pvp just control them Ani-cancel, Not using the throw up skills at all except if I got my C to IFrame.

 

I say this game is not about combo no more as much it about who take who which is kinda suck

[Zeykes]

2 minutes ago, Gamemako said:

Powerful attack combinations do exist in such games, but are made with hefty drawbacks, such as a full super bar. B&S has nothing of the sort.

But it does, in the form of cooldowns. Since KFM is obviously the flavored topic of the thread, I'll go with their CCs as an example. Their abilities which stuns/dazes has cooldowns which range from 30-45 sec (with the exception of Triple Kick, which is a conditional ability). The main escape ability of each class is on a 36 sec cooldown.

 

Now let's look at two optimal scenarios for the KFM:

A: They catch you with Triple Kick and perform a full combo including the Z stun (2 sec, 30 sec CD) followed by a V stun (3 sec, 45 sec CD) finished off by Searing Palm (2sec, 45 sec CD) and ended with an airborne combo. If you sit there eating this ENTIRE combo, you will not die (assuming you started at 100% HP). You will lose between 60-80% HP depending on your class.

 

B: They catch you with one of their 2 sec dazes, which you roll out of with F. They catch you on the roll with a second daze (which creates the exact same scenario as A).

And this is assuming the KFM hasn't wasted any of their CCs trying to catch you, missing, hitting your block/dodge etc. which is very likely in an actual match.

 

Now the thing that makes a KFM one-combo someone is their buff, Fighting Spirit. This is a 10 sec buff which gives the KFM a massive offensive boost (40% crit chance and +50% crit dmg), but it also has a 1 min 30 sec cooldown. Which means if you use your escape wisely, the KFM will have wasted both their buff and at least one (or more) CCs which as I just explained, have quite a fair bit of downtime. And if both their buff and, say, 2 CCs are gone and you get caught again, you will not die. This is what people mean when they shut down "whiners" with a single sentence saying something like "you wasted your escape".

 

Moral of the story is: Your escape skill is increadibly important in this game. Don't waste it.

[Krindor]

2 hours ago, voodooblade said:

 

BM even with HM skill dropping 580 gold or being lucky, With v damage specced dropped can't 3 second burn. And even if all classes could, which they can't. It doesn't change the fact it's lol worthy. As a Plat BM I have never burned anyone in 4 seconds or less, As a Plat BM if my foe makes an error it's never gg, not unless it's near the end already. If they make a mistake at the opening, they can easily, recover. It takes two mistakes at best for me to line up a sure win.  You make 1 mistakes against kfm, easily gg. Especially with some players using macros. 

I've been 100-0 by BMs simply due to popping tab too early, it's definitely possible so you just gotta learn how to do this amount of damage.

Yes summoners can't burn you fully within one grapple duration but as long as they don't get one shot themselves they will heal up.

[voodooblade]

17 minutes ago, Krindor said:

I've been 100-0 by BMs simply due to popping tab too early, it's definitely possible so you just gotta learn how to do this amount of damage.

Yes summoners can't burn you fully within one grapple duration but as long as they don't get one shot themselves they will heal up.

 

 And even if all classes could, which they can't. It doesn't change the fact it's lol worthy.

[Thari]

"Blablabla guys Who complain just beeing bad"

 

I said this as a platinum Player.

 

I net this **** comes from players who played this game 3 years or more on Korean Servers - sorry that EU/NA is not Equal and not as privileged as Korean people.

Those people should come to a game where players like Mosh play for 3 years or more. 

If Mosh would play this game 3years + He would probably the Best player on this game.

But now you guys think you are cool because you farm people who played Barely a month with 3years of XP Grazzzzzzzzzz!

 

So called "World Championship" where only asian countries can compete because Western countries do not have enough practice and experience so far.

 

 

In every MMO people complain about the amount of stun/cc in pvp but even you got stunned you can do something against it but in this game it gets out of Hand. 

 

There are classes with 5+ or more stuns (KFM - yes i played KFM, too) and classes only have to 2 breaks so what shit is? 

 

This is called Action Based MMO so you need to react fast like in CS:GO right? In CS:GO i have 20ms ping so it is no problem 

In BNS i have 200ms+ in Arenas 

= System is a bunch of shit

 

Fanboys defend your game^^ But the numbers of players will keep on sinking like wildstar ;-)

Sad for the game because It had great potential sad that ncsoft *cricket*ed up again

 

 

[Prototypemind]

It's kind of an interesting setup. I know if Tekken, SF, etc had 100-0 like this with a single chance to avoid it those series never would have been as popular. Literally learn the right combo and if the person counters at the wrong time it's over. Even in Killer Instinct a 99 hit combo wasn't automatic game over, and that game had the sexiest combo system I've ever seen in terms of how it looked and the continued work to pull it off.

 

Luckily this audience is more PvE-focused in general, so the bad taste of arena won't wipe out the population.

 

The other problem is that some classes just have toolkits that are far and above what others get, period, even with the 50 cap. There is not balance in this game. For the same amount of effort certain classes are god tier compared to others. 1v1 that shows to no end.

[SrKoquonfaes]

Hehehehe... I would love to see people complaining about the 3RF pull it off perfectly under pressure. It is harder than it seems.

However, I would gladly trade that combo if they removed the Destroyers red spin or nerfed the summoner so he cant give commands while he is knocked down or in a similar state.

[Valiant]

1 hour ago, SrKoquonfaes said:

Hehehehe... I would love to see people complaining about the 3RF pull it off perfectly under pressure. It is harder than it seems.

However, I would gladly trade that combo if they removed the Destroyers red spin or nerfed the summoner so he cant give commands while he is knocked down or in a similar state.

wtf wrong with you ?

\Don't tell me a *cricket*ing 1 min cooldown red spin can hurt you lmao ? You just SS and run away from it -.-

 

Come on, please nerf to destroyer, destroyer already shitty class with less immune and escape 

[Valiant]

8 hours ago, Zeykes said:

But it does, in the form of cooldowns. Since KFM is obviously the flavored topic of the thread, I'll go with their CCs as an example. Their abilities which stuns/dazes has cooldowns which range from 30-45 sec (with the exception of Triple Kick, which is a conditional ability). The main escape ability of each class is on a 36 sec cooldown.

 

Now let's look at two optimal scenarios for the KFM:

A: They catch you with Triple Kick and perform a full combo including the Z stun (2 sec, 30 sec CD) followed by a V stun (3 sec, 45 sec CD) finished off by Searing Palm (2sec, 45 sec CD) and ended with an airborne combo. If you sit there eating this ENTIRE combo, you will not die (assuming you started at 100% HP). You will lose between 60-80% HP depending on your class.

 

B: They catch you with one of their 2 sec dazes, which you roll out of with F. They catch you on the roll with a second daze (which creates the exact same scenario as A).

And this is assuming the KFM hasn't wasted any of their CCs trying to catch you, missing, hitting your block/dodge etc. which is very likely in an actual match.

 

Now the thing that makes a KFM one-combo someone is their buff, Fighting Spirit. This is a 10 sec buff which gives the KFM a massive offensive boost (40% crit chance and +50% crit dmg), but it also has a 1 min 30 sec cooldown. Which means if you use your escape wisely, the KFM will have wasted both their buff and at least one (or more) CCs which as I just explained, have quite a fair bit of downtime. And if both their buff and, say, 2 CCs are gone and you get caught again, you will not die. This is what people mean when they shut down "whiners" with a single sentence saying something like "you wasted your escape".

 

Moral of the story is: Your escape skill is increadibly important in this game. Don't waste it.

Since you talked about Fighting spirit buff for KFM, Don't KFM got 2 escapes with 36 second CD and 1 min CD ? Got many stun and daze ? Got 3 IFrame that almost spamable ?Got spamable block?

Beside that Fighting spirit which boost crit chance and crit damange.

 

Where the balance now  ? Destroyer don't have 2 escapes like you do and if he do want 2 escape he must get rid of his Fury which is similar to Fighting spirit but powerful.

 

Why the hell KFM got tons of damage and many IFrame beside their block and fighting spirit while destroyer on other hand got 1 escape only or 2 escape if he used the opposite of fury beside the shity spin that cost tons of focus and the red spin which is long CD -.-

[Zeykes]

1 hour ago, Valiant said:

Since you talked about Fighting spirit buff for KFM, Don't KFM got 2 escapes with 36 second CD and 1 min CD ? Got many stun and daze ? Got 3 IFrame that almost spamable ?Got spamable block?

Beside that Fighting spirit which boost crit chance and crit damange.

 

Where the balance now  ? Destroyer don't have 2 escapes like you do and if he do want 2 escape he must get rid of his Fury which is similar to Fighting spirit but powerful.

 

Why the hell KFM got tons of damage and many IFrame beside their block and fighting spirit while destroyer on other hand got 1 escape only or 2 escape if he used the opposite of fury beside the shity spin that cost tons of focus and the red spin which is long CD -.-

I'm very curious about what the other escape you're talking about is. Could you be referring to Emit Frost? The one where the KFM freezes itself? If so, this is a very specific escape that only works during grab/force grab. Whereas Destroyers can spec their Fury into being a second escape, not to mention their ability to spin - limiting their opponent's catching CC to knockdowns/pulls only. I don't believe the two are as imbalanced as you make them out to be.