Current class numbers in gold+ disgust me

[Cogbyrn]

2 minutes ago, Zooks said:

 

I don't think many people are threatening to quit because Summoners are OP. They're venting and looking for a bit of validation like they do in every single PVP game i.e. "I hear ya bro, they're annoying as fk." Then comes along Mr. Statistics and data pissing on their parade. "Well actually if you took statistics in school, you'd know this is statistically insignificant hurf durf data points hurf durf."

 

It's the job of the developer to balance the game. I'm pretty sure there's a CM reading these forums, and I think it's a pretty safe bet that someone at NCSoft is looking at metrics. All we can do is try to beat them, and wait for future balance patches. They're not going to get nerfed anytime soon because patches are dependent on KR and they haven't gotten nerfed there, but they're also playing a different game than we are. 

 

If you want to look for validation and vent, then that's fine.  I mean I don't understand it because I missed that part of my personal development, but if that's your goal, just say that.  

 

Instead, we have people coming in trying to use numbers to prove themselves correct.  When that happens, then you step into my home realm, and I feel inclined to respond.  That's all.  If you're going to make an argument using data, you should have some idea how to use the data.

 

Just like if I'm going to enter into a feelings-based discussion on which classes are frustrating me, I should care first.

[Destinykraze]

1 hour ago, Michieltjuhh said:

I don't feel entitled to a thing. I know I'm bad at something when I am and I can tell when my opponents make mistakes easily aswell. I know for a fact I'm nowhere near the level of play in here as I am in certain other games, that could be due to the latency issues that also need to be fixed but I doubt that. That doesn't mean I have no idea about the balance. Both statistics, top players and the general populous claims that Summoners and Blade Dancers are broken. From personal experience, I claim the same. You've barely done PvP and haven't even looked at the statistics yet. It seems like you're just playing Devil's Advocate for the sake of it.

Dude, just admit your some noob who got owned by summoners. Stop complaining. I was diamond ranked assassin before the reset, if that wasn't obviously enough.

Taking a RTS game and comparing it with B&S is like comparing apple and oranges. You are venting your frustration on others because of your *cricketing* ego. Obviously, you didn't even try other classes to find out their about weaknesses before sprouting nonsense here. 

 

There is equal chance to beat summoners on high tier compared to other classes. Once you memorize their evasive skills, counter skills and CD. They are no different from other classes.

[Cogbyrn]

31 minutes ago, voodooblade said:

 

Yet the other side has nothing but there feelings. So should I lean toward "I feel this" or should I lean towards "I feel this, because of this stat/data." I believe the latter makes a more logical, compelling argument. Of course if the numbers are wonky you could prove it. By posting counter numbers, example post the first year seasons worth of Data from Korea.  After all by your defense there should be a vast number of BM on that Rooster. 

 

Oh and before you do heads up, the data reflects this data strongly.  You should learn what percentages are, and how they pertain to statistics before being a Pseudo intellectual and trying to derail an intelligent defense for once, with nothing but your unguided, unfounded, undefended ramblings.

 

Unguided, unfounded, and undefended ramblings are all this thread is about.  It's insane to think that you can make a vague point with a couple numbers, someone challenges you, and suddenly the burden of proof is on them.  Why don't you just pull in those other numbers that support your idea, put them on display, and say "Here is some more data"?  I'm trying to tell you that your numbers don't seem to prove anything, really, and explain why.  The fallible, infactual analysis to the infallible, factual data is what is getting me.

 

And you try so hard to insult.  You should make sure the person you're trying to insult holds you in high enough esteem to take offense.

[Roxefeller]

15 minutes ago, voodooblade said:

Oh and before you do heads up, the data reflects this data strongly.  You should learn what percentages are, and how they pertain to statistics before being a Pseudo intellectual and trying to derail an intelligent defense for once, with nothing but your unguided, unfounded, undefended ramblings.

Cogbyrn's and any intelligent player's argument here is that the numbers given to us ONLY show that Summoner is a popular class. In no way does it show that Summoner is "OP". Get it through your thick skull.. This game comes down to skill. PERIOD. If your argument is that Summoner is more dangerous/OP in a skilled players hands? No. ANY class is equally dangerous/OP in a skilled player's hand. Guess what these skilled players do? They spend time learning every aspect of their class and ways to counter other classes. Every class has tools to beat every other class. The ONLY... OOOOONLY argument that can be made of a Summoner being "broken" is the ability to hide behind their cat's target window. Even then, there's ways to counter that. Now please, you incompetent, unskilled, fat-fingered neckbeards... JUST STOP

[voodooblade]

28 minutes ago, Roxefeller said:

Cogbyrn's and any intelligent player's argument here is that the numbers given to us ONLY show that Summoner is a popular class. In no way does it show that Summoner is "OP". Get it through your thick skull.. This game comes down to skill. PERIOD. If your argument is that Summoner is more dangerous/OP in a skilled players hands? No. ANY class is equally dangerous/OP in a skilled player's hand. Guess what these skilled players do? They spend time learning every aspect of their class and ways to counter other classes. Every class has tools to beat every other class. The ONLY... OOOOONLY argument that can be made of a Summoner being "broken" is the ability to hide behind their cat's target window. Even then, there's ways to counter that. Now please, you incompetent, unskilled, fat-fingered neckbeards... JUST STOP

 

Too much salt is a poor diet. 

 

Also there is some brown on your nose, right on the tip.

[Zooks]

36 minutes ago, Cogbyrn said:

 

If you want to look for validation and vent, then that's fine.  I mean I don't understand it because I missed that part of my personal development, but if that's your goal, just say that.  

 

Instead, we have people coming in trying to use numbers to prove themselves correct.  When that happens, then you step into my home realm, and I feel inclined to respond.  That's all.  If you're going to make an argument using data, you should have some idea how to use the data.

 

Just like if I'm going to enter into a feelings-based discussion on which classes are frustrating me, I should care first.

 

I'm not looking for any validation. Summoners frustrate me, and I think they're too powerful right now. We have numbers to show a correlation to that despite what you say. It's a video game at the end of the day and is literally the most unimportant thing in my life. It's fun, so I keep playing. 

[voodooblade]

25 minutes ago, Cogbyrn said:

 

Unguided, unfounded, and undefended ramblings are all this thread is about.  It's insane to think that you can make a vague point with a couple numbers, someone challenges you, and suddenly the burden of proof is on them.  Why don't you just pull in those other numbers that support your idea, put them on display, and say "Here is some more data"?  I'm trying to tell you that your numbers don't seem to prove anything, really, and explain why.  The fallible, infactual analysis to the infallible, factual data is what is getting me.

 

And you try so hard to insult.  You should make sure the person you're trying to insult holds you in high enough esteem to take offense.

 

Did you know, that after all of this. Despite such an enthralling, engaging attempt to weave an interesting rebuttal. By the end of it...I still didn't give a *cricket*.

 

You see the reason is quite simple, until you understand what percentages are used for in statistics, or the value of a pie chart I won't attempt to talk to you. Why? Because you don't understand the most basic of mathematical concepts. It's like trying to argue verbally with a deaf person, and you don't know sign language and they can't read lips. 

[Cogbyrn]

2 minutes ago, Zooks said:

 

I'm not looking for any validation. Summoners frustrate me, and I think they're too powerful right now. We have numbers to show a correlation to that despite what you say. It's a video game at the end of the day and is literally the most unimportant thing in my life. It's fun, so I keep playing. 

 

Correlations don't imply causation.  See:  tylervigen.com/spurious-correlations.  That's really the crux of what I'm saying.  Regardless, I'm glad you still find it fun and keep playing.  There have already been too many "quitting the game, pvp sux, entire game is unbalanced, most unbalanced pvp I've sever seen" threads all over this forum.

 

1 minute ago, voodooblade said:

 

Did you know, that after all of this. Despite such an enthralling, engaging attempt to weave an interesting rebuttal. By the end of it...I still didn't give a *cricket*.

 

You see the reason is quite simple, until you understand what percentages are used for in statistics, or the value of a pie chart I won't attempt to talk to you. Why? Because you don't understand the most basic of mathematical concepts. It's like trying to argue verbally with a deaf person, and you don't know sign language and they can't read lips. 

 

My sweet, summer child.  Based on what I've seen in presentations and examples from our visualization experts, pie charts are a really terrible way to represent data.  You not talking to me will be doing me a favor, since I seem to be having a difficult time stopping myself from responding on this.

[voodooblade]

7 minutes ago, Cogbyrn said:

 

Correlations don't imply causation.  See:  tylervigen.com/spurious-correlations.  That's really the crux of what I'm saying.  Regardless, I'm glad you still find it fun and keep playing.  There have already been too many "quitting the game, pvp sux, entire game is unbalanced, most unbalanced pvp I've sever seen" threads all over this forum.

 

 

My sweet, summer child.  Based on what I've seen in presentations and examples from our visualization experts, pie charts are a really terrible way to represent data.  You not talking to me will be doing me a favor, since I seem to be having a difficult time stopping myself from responding on this.

 

I am assuming you do not know what the word or means. 

[Roxefeller]

1 minute ago, voodooblade said:

 

Too much salt is a poor diet. 

Nah, that was just enough salt. Too much for your already clogged arteries to handle? Try laying off the McD's/fast foods :)

 

6 minutes ago, voodooblade said:

 

Did you know, that after all of this. Despite such an enthralling, engaging attempt to weave an interesting rebuttal. By the end of it...I still didn't give a *cricket*.

 

You see the reason is quite simple, until you understand what percentages are used for in statistics, or the value of a pie chart I won't attempt to talk to you. Why? Because you don't understand the most basic of mathematical concepts. It's like trying to argue verbally with a deaf person, and you don't know sign language and they can't read lips. 

A dangerous aspect of descriptive statistics is the risk of distorting the original data or losing important detail. As it seems to be you're attempting to describe a large set of observations (how many Summoners are gold, plat, whatever) with a single indicator (class is OP).

[voodooblade]

7 minutes ago, Roxefeller said:

Nah, that was just enough salt. Too much for your already clogged arteries to handle? Try laying off the McD's/fast foods :)

 

A dangerous aspect of descriptive statistics is the risk of distorting the original data or losing important detail. As it seems to be you're attempting to describe a large set of observations (how many Summoners are gold, plat, whatever) with a single indicator (class is OP).

 

You do know, all you'd have to do is post counter data. This is how intellectual discussions or debates are handled. Data is shown, false, valid or misinterpreted. The other party then refutes that data with their own. So far the most you two can muster is "Misappropriation of data" Without anything other then your words to back that up. In short, your word. Which is useless. 

[Roxefeller]

Just now, voodooblade said:

 

You do know, all you'd have to do is post counter data. This is how intellectual discussions or debates are handled. Data is shown, false, valid or misinterpreting. The other party then refutes that data with their own. So far the most you two can muster is "Misappropriation of data" Without anything other then your words to back that up. In short, your word. Which is useless. 

You're asking for data that isn't available yet. The use of your own data is actually rendered invalid as you do not have all of the data necessary to make such assumptions as "Summoner is OP".

[voodooblade]

5 minutes ago, Roxefeller said:

You're asking for data that isn't available yet. The use of your own data is actually rendered invalid as you do not have all of the data necessary to make such assumptions as "Summoner is OP".

 

Some data can be used to reach a theory or hypothesis. While no data is more along the lines of theology or philosophy as it is intangible. Based solely on your own whimsical feelings. So your argument or defense is 'using partial data is flawed. But me stating the opposite with zero data isn't." 

 

Yeah I am done, you must be a LBD or Summoner. Whenever you're ready to have a semi grounded in reality, or intellectual conversation let me know. I can't beat "My heart tells me this." defense.  

[Roxefeller]

2 minutes ago, voodooblade said:

 

Some data can be used to reach a theory or hypothesis. While no data is more along the lines of theology or philosophy as it is intangible. Based solely on your own whimsical feelings. So your argument or defense is 'using partial data is flawed. But me stating the opposite with zero data isn't." 

 

Yeah I am done, you must be a LBD or Summoner. Whenever you're ready to have a semi grounded in reality, or intellectual conversation let me know. I can't beat "My heart tells me this." defense.  

Actually I'm a KFM.

Also, your use of inferential statistics is beyond absurd.

[voodooblade]

5 minutes ago, Roxefeller said:

Actually I'm a KFM.

Also, your use of inferential statistics is beyond absurd.

 

 

 

 

[Roxefeller]

2 minutes ago, voodooblade said:

 

 

 

#theoreticalinferencesdebunked, the salt is real with this one.

[voodooblade]

Just now, Roxefeller said:

#theoreticalinferencesdebunked, the salt is real with this one.

 

I changed the song for you, that one better resembles you. 

[Roxefeller]

Just now, voodooblade said:

 

I changed the song for you, that one better resembles you. 

#saltsorealmystomachhurtsfromlaughingsohard

[Krae]

Suck fummoners seriously. They need to get nerfed. they just do whatever the hell they want. All those who say something against it is summoners, ofc they dont want to get nerfed.

[Gamemako]

So to recap, Roxefeller thinks inferences are impossible because reasons.

 

At this point, I see only two even remotely plausible explanations: Summoner and Blade Dancer have attracted an overwhelming number of hardcore PvP players due to perceived strength, or Summoner and Blade Dancer are having extraordinary success at high levels. The former would be trivial to test if we had Bronze and Silver player data, but as far as I know, we do not. Nevertheless, the notion seems quite unlikely given the breadth of rerolls required purely for 1v1 in the short term. If someone has an alternative explanation, I should like to hear it.

 

Anyhow, if you look at other MMO data, you'll find that many alternative explanations are comparatively unlikely. Short, childlike player characters are not overwhelmingly popular in the West. If we compare to FF14's player census data (2014, 2015), you will see the childlike race disfavored compared to an even distribution. In 2013 and 2014, Lalafell were 14% of players of 5 races, or about 70% of what would be an even selection. With the addition of a new race in 2015, they were 11-13% of the population out of 6 races, or about 72% of an even share. In the top 955 by OddFinrir's data, Lyn players are at least half of all top 955 players, pulling fully twice an even share. It seems quite unlikely that players are using these characters because they like Lyn specifically, certainly not at a 3:1 rate compared to a game with essentially no race contribution to class/role. The decision to use Lyn in 1v1 arenas is very likely dependent on the classes themselves, and not on the race. It is also worth considering that one unique Lyn class is essentially an easier variant of a class used by two other races, which would dramatically curb the effect of class selection on overall prevalence-- that is, you would not expect BM and BD to each have equal share as were they two entirely separate classes.

 

//EDIT: It strikes me as intuitively unlikely, given the sheer volume of rerolls required, that Lyn success is purely due to players selecting a perceived superior option.

[voodooblade]

15 minutes ago, Gamemako said:

So to recap, Roxefeller thinks inferences are impossible because reasons.

 

At this point, I see only two even remotely plausible explanations: Summoner and Blade Dancer have attracted an overwhelming number of hardcore PvP players due to perceived strength, or Summoner and Blade Dancer are having extraordinary success at high levels. The former would be trivial to test if we had Bronze and Silver player data, but as far as I know, we do not. Nevertheless, the notion seems quite unlikely given the breadth of rerolls required purely for 1v1 in the short term. If someone has an alternative explanation, I should like to hear it.

 

Anyhow, if you look at other MMO data, you'll find that many alternative explanations are comparatively unlikely. Short, childlike player characters are not overwhelmingly popular in the West. If we compare to FF14's player census data (2014, 2015), you will see the childlike race disfavored compared to an even distribution. In 2013 and 2014, Lalafell were 14% of players of 5 races, or about 70% of what would be an even selection. With the addition of a new race in 2015, they were 11-13% of the population out of 6 races, or about 72% of an even share. In the top 955 by OddFinrir's data, Lyn players are at least half of all top 955 players, pulling fully twice an even share. It seems quite unlikely that players are using these characters because they like Lyn specifically, certainly not at a 3:1 rate compared to a game with essentially no race contribution to class/role. The decision to use Lyn in 1v1 arenas is very likely dependent on the classes themselves, and not on the race. It is also worth considering that one unique Lyn class is essentially an easier variant of a class used by two other races, which would dramatically curb the effect of class selection on overall prevalence-- that is, you would not expect BM and BD to each have equal share as were they two entirely separate classes.

 

//EDIT: It strikes me as intuitively unlikely, given the sheer volume of rerolls required, that Lyn success is purely due to players selecting a perceived superior option.

 

I swear he works for ncsoft. 

[Gamemako]

15 minutes ago, voodooblade said:

 

I swear he works for ncsoft. 

 

I highly doubt it. It's just a very common behavior among certain players in online games. I've been in balance discussions for ages and ages, and some people just really hate the idea of balance changes and a shifting meta. The result is a pretty predictable series of false dilemmas and other nonsense that they really know better than to use, but they apply anyway because it supports their existing viewpoint.

 

B&S is not that poorly balanced. I dislike a lot of design decisions they made, like the damage combos that are fully twice as powerful as any sane developer intentionally includes (*snickers*), but strong players are quite able to reach Diamond with any class. I'm still not convinced that some of Summoner and BD's strengths aren't related to the present ping issues, plus a number of bugs such as the cat being able to intercept players midair.

[PsyFu]

7 hours ago, Roxefeller said:

7 hours ago, Roxefeller said:

LOL WoW Arena PvP. What a joke. I'm Ssilentsmall, Ice mage on #1 2v2 team in Season 1. Nothing special and arenas have become even more of a joke with every following season.

In regards to your first sentence: You still fail to grasp the concept of spending time learning how to beat a class rather than bitching on forums about balance.

I didn't "conveniently skip passed* that". Guess what? Ranks reset every season. Players of all classes climb that very same rank ladder every time it gets reset. If your argument is the game isn't balanced NOW (which it is as all classes are fully capable of defeating any other class)... then stop bitching about it and take the time to read about upcoming balance patches. As NCSoft has stated multiple times, they are following the KR balance patches.

 Rock you are a really annoying. You talk like you know everything but you don't mate. For example here is a SUMMONER bug that I am sure I have seen in arena. You consider everyone to either be a noob or whatever but you are only gold kfm if that now from what your website says. I don't want to bash you but just chill and maybe consider there are other factors involved. I have fought summoners since russian BNS / alpha/ beta so I am not new to it... There is something off and maybe this exploit is part of it. I also know that there are some diamond players that can face roll everything but these are pro like players. 

 

[Hurk]

19 minutes ago, PsyFu said:

 Rock you are a really annoying. You talk like you know everything but you don't mate. For example here is a SUMMONER bug that I am sure I have seen in arena. You consider everyone to either be a noob or whatever but you are only gold kfm if that now from what your website says. I don't want to bash you but just chill and maybe consider there are other factors involved. I have fought summoners since russian BNS / alpha/ beta so I am not new to it... There is something off and maybe this exploit is part of it. I also know that there are some diamond players that can face roll everything but these are pro like players. 

 

Seriously this bug still exists? Funny how the pet taunt thread immediately got attention but this one does not.

[Kensho1996]

I was more than ready to stop playing this game BUT decided to start playing my summoner and basically parked my painfully useless KFM..

 

at 20th I went into the arena and went up against a BD in first battle .. first round went to BD as I couldn't remember the class (I had it parked since I got to 19th level) but then rounds 2 and 3 went to me .. they weren't the clear cut wins like I see others get VS my KFM (I think in part due to the incredible lag I suffer from in the arena) but they were clear wins ,

 

I DON'T know for sure as it was the only PvP I did but I don't think the class IS OP just way more simple than ANY other ..

 

some players are also using macros I believe though I can't prove it (i though macros were a no no) BUT for summoner all you need to do is watch for CDs and there is no huge combo necessity ..

 

NOT sure IF there is ANY solution to this since they made suck a simple class WHILE other classes have to work their butts off just to do the same thing..

 

I will miss my KFM and I am sad i am having to go to the skill-less route of playing a summoner BUT I am absolutely fed up with being face rolled time and time again in the arena as a the KFM ..

 

once premium is done I will have to see if I will bother with this game any longer