The Attack Power requirement in 4 man dungeons

[MasterBlaster]

Long time forum lurker and i've seen a lot of complaints/defense about the high ap requirement in 4man yeti.  At first i don't really know which side is right since i never tried 4 man yeti until yesterday. Did around 10 successful runs yesterday and the ones that were successful usually has people around the 510 ap+ mark. There was a successful run where me (520 ap), another person with 500 ap, and 2 guys with around 480-490 ap almost failed because we almost couldn't reach the enrage timer. So because of this i can understand why certain LFG groups demands 510/520ap+ or even the crazier 550ap+ because this is to ensure that they would at least cleave through the enrage timer.

 

But most of the posters that says skill plays the biggest part is also very correct after my experience yesterday. I have some fail runs too. One of the fail runs was from a high ap group that is at 600, 2 around 540 ap, and me 520 ap. My ap was basically the lowest in this group so when i first joined, i was like damnnn there's no way we could fail with these super aps but i was wrong. The boss keeps one shotting us because of the mistake this summoner did. I don't know how a summoner works but the group leader was complaining about something about his roots etc. So i think mechanic is really the most important especially in 4 man where one mistake gets you a wipe no matter how high your ap is. In 6 man we could get away with mistakes because of lower damage and most importantly dragonblood for the extra life. But unfortunately we don't have DB in 4 man.

[TheUndeadFish]

450+ average is fine for any of the current 4mans.

 

The first time my group ran yeti and lair our ap was:

480 smn

455 des

413 kfm

396 wl (I'm this gimp wl)

 

These numbers are +/-2 of actual values. Also when we ran yeti we slowed down our dps because we had no idea about stun mechanics and we relied on grab+throw. To beat the third freeze i had to z just before frozen to survive the insta-kill while everyone else did chi restoration. This team also could beat necro easily, but after 20 or so tries it was only me and the kfm who figured out the timing to survive nightmare wave which wasn't enough.

 

The first time I successfully ran necro the group was:

514 bd

504 smn

484 wl

403 smn

 

Both summoners died for the rest of the fight during the first set of nightmare wave. We ended up duoing the remaining 44% and beating the enrage timer at -10 on the clock.

 

These dungeons are extremely forgiving with their enrage timers as long as you can understand the mechanics. However unless you are in a preformed group of 4 do not expect to ever get the chance to try low ap runs. No random person would ever want to run a 4man yeti or necro with my 396 wl, this includes myself.

[DannyMayCry]

A wild dealer appeared

[Tsunakai]

On 4/20/2016 at 5:23 AM, TheUndeadFish said:

450+ average is fine for any of the current 4mans.

 

The first time my group ran yeti and lair our ap was:

480 smn

455 des

413 kfm

396 wl (I'm this gimp wl)

 

These numbers are +/-2 of actual values. Also when we ran yeti we slowed down our dps because we had no idea about stun mechanics and we relied on grab+throw. To beat the third freeze i had to z just before frozen to survive the insta-kill while everyone else did chi restoration. This team also could beat necro easily, but after 20 or so tries it was only me and the kfm who figured out the timing to survive nightmare wave which wasn't enough.

 

The first time I successfully ran necro the group was:

514 bd

504 smn

484 wl

403 smn

 

Both summoners died for the rest of the fight during the first set of nightmare wave. We ended up duoing the remaining 44% and beating the enrage timer at -10 on the clock.

 

These dungeons are extremely forgiving with their enrage timers as long as you can understand the mechanics. However unless you are in a preformed group of 4 do not expect to ever get the chance to try low ap runs. No random person would ever want to run a 4man yeti or necro with my 396 wl, this includes myself.

1 FM in that necro run and no1 would have died. Same with Yeti.

[Shadovvv]

On 4/20/2016 at 9:23 AM, TheUndeadFish said:

 Also when we ran yeti we slowed down our dps because we had no idea about stun mechanics and we relied on grab+throw. To beat the third freeze i had to z just before frozen to survive the insta-kill while everyone else did chi restoration. This team also could beat necro easily, but after 20 or so tries it was only me and the kfm who figured out the timing to survive nightmare wave which wasn't enough.

These dungeons are extremely forgiving with their enrage timers as long as you can understand the mechanics. However unless you are in a preformed group of 4 do not expect to ever get the chance to try low ap runs. No random person would ever want to run a 4man yeti or necro with my 396 wl, this includes myself.

The most important thing you need to even attempt a 4-man dungeon is a brain. 6-man gives a damage reduction buff, and mechanics are usually skipped if the party's DPS is strong enough.

 

Always, always, always do some thorough research. You don't even have to iframe the whole Nightmare Wave; you leave the scorpion adds alive and then kill them, then iframe the next set of waves. The fact that you kept trying to iframe the entire set Nightmare Waves tells me you failed to use your perception or did some research, which contributes to your failures.

 

Class roles don't mean anything on braindead players. Things like Frost Sheath are a crutch, but it won't save you if its mistimed, plus Frost Sheath doesn't even work against Yeti's ground pound when already frozen.

[Tsunakai]

Aggro holder stands in ice circle, 7 circles remain. Boss begins ice phase, FM ice tab before first cruix, release after 4, ice sheath remaining 3, party is released and can iframe jump normally. So easy to do also, requires no HM skills and it's 2 skills every FM has so they never use the excuse "not enough points".

[TheUndeadFish]

16 hours ago, Shadovvv said:

The most important thing you need to even attempt a 4-man dungeon is a brain. 6-man gives a damage reduction buff, and mechanics are usually skipped if the party's DPS is strong enough.

 

Always, always, always do some thorough research. You don't even have to iframe the whole Nightmare Wave; you leave the scorpion adds alive and then kill them, then iframe the next set of waves. The fact that you kept trying to iframe the entire set Nightmare Waves tells me you failed to use your perception or did some research, which contributes to your failures.

 

Class roles don't mean anything on braindead players. Things like Frost Sheath are a crutch, but it won't save you if its mistimed, plus Frost Sheath doesn't even work against Yeti's ground pound when already frozen.

How many parties in 4man necro leave the scorps up? From my experience maybe 1 out of 15 leave the scorps up as there is 0 reason to. They are a crutch for players that can't iframe properly much like the picking up ice orbs in yeti are. Those 20 wipes in my first 4man necro run with friends allowed me to get the timing down and survive with 0 assistance as a WL, which is literally the class with the least amount of iframes. Now when I f8 4man necro I don't care about my team comp at all, and generally I couldn't care less if the only ones who survive nightmare waves are me and one other person.

 

The reason we were trying to iframe the entire set of the waves is to make the runs quicker, and easier in the long run. It had nothing to do with failing to use perception or doing research, we would rather learn to do the fight the efficient way than the rely on the crutch way.

 

On yeti things like frost sheath are not a crutch, you are crazy. If you have access to an FM there is no reason to ever clear ice. Every class can Iframe through more than 5 waves by themselves. FM can sheath for the remaining 3 if the classes can't handle up to 8 by themselves.

 

Frost sheath does work against slam if you are frozen. Source: 150 4man yeti runs with approx 50% of them with a fm. If frost sheath doesn't work against ground pound its because of s reasons. The player iframed the frost sheath wave, or the idiot hit f and got himself frozen again.

 

There really isn't any reason for you to be so condescending towards others playstyles as this is thread about ap requirement for 4man yeti. Personally when I 3man yeti, average AP is 525, now I prefer using a BM over a FM due to the dps increase on the cold phase. HM block allows everyone to continue DPSing through all 8 waves without sitting there frozen like the FM method.

[Tsunakai]

HM block pt iframe from BM only gives 3 resists, which means the group has to iframe 4-5 others outside of that ability.

[Shadovvv]

2 hours ago, TheUndeadFish said:

How many parties in 4man necro leave the scorps up? From my experience maybe 1 out of 15 leave the scorps up as there is 0 reason to. They are a crutch for players that can't iframe properly much like the picking up ice orbs in yeti are. Those 20 wipes in my first 4man necro run with friends allowed me to get the timing down and survive with 0 assistance as a WL, which is literally the class with the least amount of iframes. Now when I f8 4man necro I don't care about my team comp at all, and generally I couldn't care less if the only ones who survive nightmare waves are me and one other person.

 

The reason we were trying to iframe the entire set of the waves is to make the runs quicker, and easier in the long run. It had nothing to do with failing to use perception or doing research, we would rather learn to do the fight the efficient way than the rely on the crutch way.

 

On yeti things like frost sheath are not a crutch, you are crazy. If you have access to an FM there is no reason to ever clear ice. Every class can Iframe through more than 5 waves by themselves. FM can sheath for the remaining 3 if the classes can't handle up to 8 by themselves.

 

Frost sheath does work against slam if you are frozen. Source: 150 4man yeti runs with approx 50% of them with a fm. If frost sheath doesn't work against ground pound its because of s reasons. The player iframed the frost sheath wave, or the idiot hit f and got himself frozen again.

There really isn't any reason for you to be so condescending towards others playstyles as this is thread about ap requirement for 4man yeti. Personally when I 3man yeti, average AP is 525, now I prefer using a BM over a FM due to the dps increase on the cold phase. HM block allows everyone to continue DPSing through all 8 waves without sitting there frozen like the FM method.

A good number of 4-man parties will actually leave the scorpions alive, while 6-man tend to mindlessly kill them. I'm not seeing how iframing the entire set of waves makes the "run quicker" when you're losing out on damage for focusing on iframing, not to mention some attacks won't let you iframe out of them.

 

Force Master is useful for surviving Yeti's 8 cruxes, yes. However, I'd much rather minimalize risks of dying as a backup contingency should they fail (yes, lag is the silent killer).

 

By ground pound I'm talking about when he slams the ground and makes fire. I've been in many runs where the Force Master gets grabbed and fails to transfer heat to other people because they used F on the throw. Everyone except the FM dies or loses dragonblood when Yeti's debuff freezes everyone, while wearing FM Flower on their heads.

 

I'm sorry if I came off condescending and some of my statements were probably unnecessary, but my point to the OP is AP doesn't matter over having a brain.

[Archess]

On 20-4-2016 at 6:11 PM, MasterBlaster said:

Long time forum lurker and i've seen a lot of complaints/defense about the high ap requirement in 4man yeti.  At first i don't really know which side is right since i never tried 4 man yeti until yesterday. Did around 10 successful runs yesterday and the ones that were successful usually has people around the 510 ap+ mark. There was a successful run where me (520 ap), another person with 500 ap, and 2 guys with around 480-490 ap almost failed because we almost couldn't reach the enrage timer. So because of this i can understand why certain LFG groups demands 510/520ap+ or even the crazier 550ap+ because this is to ensure that they would at least cleave through the enrage timer.

 

But most of the posters that says skill plays the biggest part is also very correct after my experience yesterday. I have some fail runs too. One of the fail runs was from a high ap group that is at 600, 2 around 540 ap, and me 520 ap. My ap was basically the lowest in this group so when i first joined, i was like damnnn there's no way we could fail with these super aps but i was wrong. The boss keeps one shotting us because of the mistake this summoner did. I don't know how a summoner works but the group leader was complaining about something about his roots etc. So i think mechanic is really the most important especially in 4 man where one mistake gets you a wipe no matter how high your ap is. In 6 man we could get away with mistakes because of lower damage and most importantly dragonblood for the extra life. But unfortunately we don't have DB in 4 man.

3 people with 500 ish ap is enough to clear yeti4 with 2 minutes left on the timer.

 

Ive been in a bunch of diffrent groups as a KFM, ussually the best groups are you say around 500-540 ap where everyone mostly grinded for their gear, many people below that amount are the pro's as a call em when they know it all so well (when i just wanna do my 6 man daily quick), as to what you need todo, like i "need" to be grabbed .....we need to stop dps...i need to stand still ....he's typing all that real time and then dies because he was too pro for buying a dragonblood, while i ussually farm yeti4 man with 3 people.

 

Or you get the 600+ ap guys that stroll in there for the first time and think their AP is gonna split oceans, die once and leave, but not without cursing on the Noob Tank (me).

 

Personally i don't mind a wipe, it happens, pc freezes, mouse exits screen, lag, np ...but people always seem to blame it on the tank, ranged can die over and over, np...

[Mistia]

It is true that tank class gets the blame running Yeti and Asura. I just tried running with 2WL, 1SUM, and myself FM in Yeti4, even though the WL has higher AP than I, I still took aggro from WL. After we wiped the first time, WL just outright says FM needs to take aggro. While I ended up having to tank, stun, and frost sheath, the WL ended up dead.

 

Not a happy camper here. There is small room for error in Yeti4 to begin with and even less room for error w/o a proper tank class. The SUM tried to kitty tank, but I just take aggro back again.

 

Our clan was training another BM for Yeti4 tank, the ride was bumpy and we are not 100% yet. There are so many moves from Yeti you have to memorize (on repeat) or you will screw it up. Now I am now sitting at 46/100.

 

PS. Only seen outfit drop once (didnt get it btw) and no skill drop. 50% chance of seeing more than 2 stingers drop. RNG having a tantrum....

[Shadovvv]

3 minutes ago, Mistia said:

It is true that tank class gets the blame running Yeti and Asura. I just tried running with 2WL, 1SUM, and myself FM in Yeti4, even though the WL has higher AP than I, I still took aggro from WL. After we wiped the first time, WL just outright says FM needs to take aggro. While I ended up having to tank, stun, and frost sheath, the WL ended up dead.

Not a happy camper here. There is small room for error in Yeti4 to begin with and even less room for error w/o a proper tank class. The SUM tried to kitty tank, but I just take aggro back again.

Warlocks themselves cannot hold aggro very well because their main skill generates no threat, and I doubt they would want to take their Thrall off offensive mode. Cat tank is only a temporary effect meant to relieve some heat off of the main tank. Even as an Assassin myself, Force Masters with 50 less AP and 20% less critical damage than me will still hold aggro unless they give me a bit of alone time with the boss because their opening burst is just that strong.

 

If you're worried about tanking Yeti and Asura yourself, you just need to stand behind them as they attack since they generally only hit in front of them. If they're somehow dying then it's pretty much their own fault.

[Mistia]

5 minutes ago, Shadovvv said:

Warlocks themselves cannot hold aggro very well because their main skill generates no threat, and I doubt they would want to take their Thrall off offensive mode. Cat tank is only a temporary effect meant to relieve some heat off of the main tank. Even as an Assassin myself, Force Masters with 50 less AP and 20% less critical damage than me will still hold aggro unless they give me a bit of alone time with the boss because their opening burst is just that strong.

 

If you're worried about tanking Yeti and Asura yourself, you just need to stand behind them as they attack since they generally only hit in front of them. If they're somehow dying then it's pretty much their own fault.

If I run into similar situation, I will give that I try. But i kind of vow not to run Yeti4 w/o BM/KFM/Destro and maybe BD. I was just raging by myself since I did all the work and they still ended up dead and we failed. Left that pt after 3rd try. XD

 

In a normal pt set up having WL SB just reduce the run by a minute or so, but I just can't take the pressure of tanking as a fragile FM against Yeti. :p