State of Arena(EU).

[Uszka]

First of all I am not trying to cry about anything, just trying to have some sort of discussion.

I just finished my gaming session as KFM - played 54 arena games betwen 1807-1954 rating. Here are the results of classes I faced: 0 KFMs, 1BM, 1 FM, 5 summoners(dunno why only so few as mostly I face summoner every 3 games), 8 sins, 10 destroyers and whooping 29 blade cancers.

We can clearly see there is some *cricket*ing sick problem with current arena balance. BMs and FMs are considered trash tier. Propably my cat could reach diamond as summoner, BD and destroyers are literaly no risk-high reward classes and KFMS/Sins require close to flawless gameplay in order to compete with other 3 classes. Then following by this we got matchups that are sort of hearthstone like with 70-30 chances, which you can literaly concede at the start of the game in order to not waste time.

I didnt' play any other version of BnS ever so possibly our version is unbalanced atm, but hey isnt it *cricket*ing retarded? We are kinda playing on *cricket*ed up version with korea lastest patch, but skill and lvl locked and game is not in a *cricket*ing beta but sells as a fully released product. How is this supposed to keep competitive players in the game? I can speak only for myself(and actually I consider myself a hardcore player who rarely gives up) but right now I am fed up with this game and hittin a brick wall made of blade dancers. I can imagine less hardcore players actually giving up on arena after getting rekted couple of times by those no risk-high reward classes. It's just not fun playing more complex class yet being an underdog.

 

I just wonder how long we got to wait for fully balanced version of the game. Right now it seems that we are around 1-2 months away from lvl50 and hongmoon skills.

[Cogbyrn]

First, just because you say you aren't trying to cry and that you want a discussion, doesn't mean that your post isn't a cry of frustration that does its best to kill any sort of constructive discussion that could take place.  Lay off the emotional tirades if you want to create an actual discussion, otherwise it really just sounds like you're whining.  Which it does.

 

Second, your frustration and immediate look for the game to be "fully balanced" is killing any sort of potential you might have at learning more about the match-up.  You've hit a wall, and without any other information, I can only assume you have yet to do any more research, attempt new techniques, try new builds, or do anything else to fix the problem.  You've described nothing.  

 

What did you attempt?  

What do you notice about the match-up that is causing you the most issues?  

Where do you feel you "lose" the match-up?  

If you have won any rounds, what do you think secured you the win?

 

There's no analysis.  There's no asking for assistance.  There's only frustration and a desire for the developer to release some balance patch so you can a move forward.

 

Here's another question:  if they release the balance patch, and you hit another wall, will you wait for them to release yet another balance patch?  If they release a patch and you don't increase in rating, are you going to blame the game and quit, then come back and post regularly about how bad the game is and how unbalanced the classes are?

 

Your mentality is killing you.  If you don't fix it, no amount of patching will make you happy, unless they patch KFM into OP-dom and you climb through the ranks.  Though what happens if you hit a wall of other KFMs that you can't beat?  Is that the only time you'll admit that you could improve?

[826642_1452549993]

Class balance comes in time as you get more skilled. The easier classes will always have the upper hand at the beginning. For example,  if you were the best BM in the world you would kill anyone in EU Arena without any frustrations whatsoever.

[Vecejj]

Mentality doesn't do crap when Summoner, Destro and Blade cancer are clearly out of balance and the majority of players know this. 

 

Skill should reward you but face mashing classes such as the 3 listed above give you everything you need, there is no reason to play FM/BM or heck even KFM in arena atm, those 3 can do everything and more and better. 

 

I never go into a match thinking I'm going to lose, I see a summoner and I'm a bit frustrated because they're just a pain in the ass but I change my skills and try, what sucks is that you have to put in 100x more effort whiles they're rolling their face on their keyboard with the same chances of winning.

 

 

[Cogbyrn]

11 minutes ago, Vecejj said:

Mentality doesn't do crap when Summoner, Destro and Blade cancer are clearly out of balance and the majority of players know this. 

 

Skill should reward you but face mashing classes such as the 3 listed above give you everything you need, there is no reason to play FM/BM or heck even KFM in arena atm, those 3 can do everything and more and better. 

 

I never go into a match thinking I'm going to lose, I see a summoner and I'm a bit frustrated because they're just a pain in the ass but I change my skills and try, what sucks is that you have to put in 100x more effort whiles they're rolling their face on their keyboard with the same chances of winning.

 

 

 

Stop hiding behind your "majority of players" comments.  Just because you think you're putting 100x more effort into a match doesn't mean you're entitled to victory.  If anything it sounds like you're putting the wrong effort in.  Proper application of force in just the right place, not overabundance of force expecting the win.

 

And I play FM because it's ultra fun.  Not everyone needs to win with the flavor of the month in order to have fun.

[Vecejj]

29 minutes ago, Cogbyrn said:

 

Stop hiding behind your "majority of players" comments.  Just because you think you're putting 100x more effort into a match doesn't mean you're entitled to victory.  If anything it sounds like you're putting the wrong effort in.  Proper application of force in just the right place, not overabundance of force expecting the win.

 

And I play FM because it's ultra fun.  Not everyone needs to win with the flavor of the month in order to have fun.

Does it look like I'm hiding? lol, if you read these forums for the last few weeks it's been the same thing over and over, I know for a fact that I'm not alone in thinking those 3 classes are out of balance. 

 

Did I say I was entitled to victory? also not sure how you can say I'm putting the wrong effort in considering you've never seen me play or know my mentality... and the application of force blah blah what on earth are you talking about, I assume you mean not mindlessly spamming skills hoping to do something?

 

Congratz you play FM too, not sure what your point is here or any of them for that matter. 

 

Btw you've not done anything wrong and my reply sounds harsh but it's not meant to be, PvP is doing my head in, 6 blade cancers in a row is depressing -.-

[Wylphen]

3 minutes ago, Vecejj said:

Does it look like I'm hiding? lol, if you read these forums for the last few weeks it's been the same thing over and over, I know for a fact that I'm not alone in thinking those 3 classes are out of balance. 

 

Did I say I was entitled to victory? also not sure how you can say I'm putting the wrong effort in considering you've never seen me play or know my mentality... and the application of force blah blah what on earth are you talking about, I assume you mean not mindlessly spamming skills hoping to do something?

 

Congratz you play FM too, not sure what your point is here or any of them for that matter. 

 

Btw you've not done anything wrong and my reply sounds harsh but it's not meant to be, PvP is doing my head in, 6 blade cancers in a row is depressing -.-

 

Funny I just replied to a thread just like this about a minute ago. This is a good example of proving you wrong:

 

 

 

[Vecejj]

11 minutes ago, Wylphen said:

 

Funny I just replied to a thread just like this about a minute ago. This is a good example of proving you wrong:

 

 

 

That's a good example of a good KFM? not sure what you're trying to say... I could link a platinum BM and that means the class isn't UP at all? people who just link videos of a good player proves nothing except they have no valid argument at all.

 

There is statistics and facts from EU, korea etc. all linking Destro, BD and Summ as the highest played and won classes in PvP across every BnS version. That's a fact. There was a few topics about this, if I can find them I'll link them. 

[Cogbyrn]

45 minutes ago, Vecejj said:

Does it look like I'm hiding? lol, if you read these forums for the last few weeks it's been the same thing over and over, I know for a fact that I'm not alone in thinking those 3 classes are out of balance. 

 

Did I say I was entitled to victory? also not sure how you can say I'm putting the wrong effort in considering you've never seen me play or know my mentality... and the application of force blah blah what on earth are you talking about, I assume you mean not mindlessly spamming skills hoping to do something?

 

Congratz you play FM too, not sure what your point is here or any of them for that matter. 

 

Btw you've not done anything wrong and my reply sounds harsh but it's not meant to be, PvP is doing my head in, 6 blade cancers in a row is depressing -.-

 

I had a response written, but it was eaten.  Here's the summary:

 

I said you were hiding because you tried to drape the "majority agrees with me" security blanket over your argument, when you have absolutely no evidence to support what the majority thinks.  I call that hiding, because you're attempting to eliminate any potential for discussion, and if someone disagrees with you, well, the majority agrees, so clearly that person is wrong.

 

I claimed you were entitled to victory because you seem to think that your skill and effort should win against things you subjectively deem skill-less/effortless.  You think you're doing something more skillful, so you should win against someone who you think is doing something less skillful.  To me that's entitlement, because you aren't earning anything, just situating your opinions to make yourself almost seem like a victim.

 

And you said in a previous post that there's no reason to play FM.  I gave you a reason:  fun.  That's the reason I'm currently using, and I wouldn't switch classes for the world.

 

This is a punishing game.  If someone can do it, it clearly can be done.  If you're an FM stuck in gold, then, well, you're a gold FM.  Maybe you think you're more mechanically talented than some plat Destroyer, but that's irrelevant.  Until you prove you can fight through gold, then you're just a gold FM.  Why should balance changes be made to solely change the color of the tier you are in as a player?  Maybe you have to know more about the game to become a gold FM as opposed to a plat Destroyer because you have to overcome some adversity, but my argument for that is:  so what?  You think if they release a patch that allows you to hit plat, you're suddenly a better player?  This is also where that entitlement comes in.  You think you're entitled to a higher rating, because you want the game to change so you can get there.

 

That wasn't really a summary, more just another post.  You're just lacking the mentality.  You say mentality doesn't "do crap", but that's probably because your mentality *is* crap.

[Gratus]

45 minutes ago, Wylphen said:

 

Funny I just replied to a thread just like this about a minute ago. This is a good example of proving you wrong:

 

 

I don't think anyone's saying it's impossible to win with any class.. I cringe everytime I hear people use player X as an example of class balance.

[Cogbyrn]

6 minutes ago, Gratus said:

 

I don't think anyone's saying it's impossible to win with any class.. I cringe everytime I hear people use player X as an example of class balance.

 

So if a player can seemingly ignore the forum-conceived "class balance", does that mean classes aren't balanced?  Or does it mean players aren't balanced?  It's a 1v1 game.  There is very clearly something you can do to win, and you don't seem to be doing it as a player.  What are we blaming the classes for, requiring different levels of knowledge to hit different rating tiers?

 

Should they really try to balance a game around where all of the players *think* they should be in the ratings?

[Shukran]

statistically speaking you should have a bigger sample.

so what s the point of this thread?

[Erdrick]

20 minutes ago, Shukran said:

statistically speaking you should have a bigger sample.

so what s the point of this thread?

 

Awkwardly my level 23 BD is on a 27 win streak in 1v1. And i have no idea what I'm doing with him 50% of the time.

 

Yet on my 45 KFM. Over 300+ wins. I put more effort into my skills/dodging/blocking/fakes ect ect and still lose by time or the same skill spam.

When I have to use pretty much everything in my arsenal to be effective vs classes who only need to click 3 skills 3/4ths of the fight :)

[Wylphen]

46 minutes ago, Vecejj said:

That's a good example of a good KFM? not sure what you're trying to say... I could link a platinum BM and that means the class isn't UP at all? people who just link videos of a good player proves nothing except they have no valid argument at all.

 

There is statistics and facts from EU, korea etc. all linking Destro, BD and Summ as the highest played and won classes in PvP across every BnS version. That's a fact. There was a few topics about this, if I can find them I'll link them. 

 

The OP is a KFM so I thought it would benefit him. I just think anybody make a class their own if they are good enough. As you said you could link me a video of other classes excelling so I don't really know what your point is and why you think I posted something arguable. If the classes are highest played then of course they will be the 'most won' in stats.

 

Patches will continously change the flow of the game and popularity of classes and unfortunately that is the nature of mmo pvp.

 

 

[Erdrick]

 

 

And people say everything is working as it should.

[Cogbyrn]

5 minutes ago, Erdrick said:

 

Awkwardly my level 23 BD is on a 27 win streak in 1v1. And i have no idea what I'm doing with him 50% of the time.

 

Yet on my 45 KFM. Over 300+ wins. I put more effort into my skills/dodging/blocking/fakes ect ect and still lose by time or the same skill spam.

When I have to use pretty much everything in my arsenal to be effective vs classes who only need to click 3 skills 3/4ths of the fight :)

 

But if you have fun with KFM, what's the problem?  Why does the fact that the other guy is pressing 4 buttons bug you?  Don't you *want* to use every ability in your arsenal?

 

If anything, it should be "Bummer, that guy doesn't use anything else in his arsenal, that must be a boring drag."  So much importance is put on rating and this expectation that a player should be higher than he/she is.  How does progression up the tiers mean anything if you have to wait for a patch help you?  Do you really tell yourself "There, I did it!" after a patch that made it so your class was stronger in the scene?  You didn't actually do anything, you were handed something after not changing one bit.  Does that make people feel good?

[Erdrick]

 

Just now, Cogbyrn said:

 

But if you have fun with KFM, what's the problem?  Why does the fact that the other guy is pressing 4 buttons bug you?  Don't you *want* to use every ability in your arsenal?

 

If anything, it should be "Bummer, that guy doesn't use anything else in his arsenal, that must be a boring drag."  So much importance is put on rating and this expectation that a player should be higher than he/she is.  How does progression up the tiers mean anything if you have to wait for a patch help you?  Do you really tell yourself "There, I did it!" after a patch that made it so your class was stronger in the scene?  You didn't actually do anything, you were handed something after not changing one bit.  Does that make people feel good?

 

Nice to see a sarcastic noobie thinking he's superior to people on the forums. 

GG kid. Message me back when yo hit 16 xoxo

[Cogbyrn]

3 minutes ago, Erdrick said:

 

 

And people say everything is working as it should.

 

Why was your tab on cooldown?  Did you use it to avoid standing in his spin for a second?  Looks like you wished you had your tab back there at the end.

[Gratus]

1 hour ago, Cogbyrn said:

 

So if a player can seemingly ignore the forum-conceived "class balance", does that mean classes aren't balanced?  Or does it mean players aren't balanced?  It's a 1v1 game.  There is very clearly something you can do to win, and you don't seem to be doing it as a player.  What are we blaming the classes for, requiring different levels of knowledge to hit different rating tiers?

 

Should they really try to balance a game around where all of the players *think* they should be in the ratings?

 

In the video we can see a player with tons of experience stomping noobs. It's not a show of class balance on ANY level.

[Cogbyrn]

2 minutes ago, Gratus said:

 

In the video we can see a player with tons of experience stomping noobs. It's not a show of class balance on ANY level.

 

If it's all noobs up through Plat, then I think I found the problem:  the ladder is full of noobs.  Some classes are probably more forgiving for noobs than others, so those make it up through the tiers more easily.  Does that mean things are unbalanced, in a world of people who still don't really know the game/execute well?

 

A demonstration of a person straight-up dominating several classes people preach are OP through Gold tier shows it can be done, even against those classes preached to be OP.  You just have to do it right.

 

In a 1v1 game, that's crucial information to know when thinking about balance.  Maybe Destro can hit Plat more easily than FM, but if two players have in-depth knowledge and loads of experience in an FM/Destro match-up, and it's a fairly even result, is that not good enough?  How do you even quantify a class's difficulty in rising through the ranks relative to others enough to use that as a metric for balance?

 

Watching someone else do it should give you something to strive for, not something to dismiss because "he's just good".  

[Jafon]

34 minutes ago, Erdrick said:

 

 

And people say everything is working as it should.

I wonder how did u get to high gold playing like that actually. At low gold I meet kfms able to 3rf stunlock my whole hp -I'm a destroyer-. U arent even blocking his engages properly...u showing urself u dunno how to play kfm and u complaining about a basic destroyer combo while u have ways to counter it and u can actually do double the dmg with same effort.

[Uszka]

Btw why are you guys showing me KFMs reaching plat when I am playing at plat after 3 days of arena(130 games total)? Second sentence *cricket*ing said that I am hovering betwen 1850 and 1950.

I am not whining about my class being weak or about me losing to any other class. I am just saying that if 3 classes get like 90% representation in arena past 1900, and 2 other classes proly less than 3% then there is something wrong.

Also majority of the post was about our state of arena in the west - we are playing on live patch with old skills and old lvl cap. How the *cricket* is this supposed to be balanced?

[Gratus]

3 minutes ago, Cogbyrn said:

 

If it's all noobs up through Plat, then I think I found the problem:  the ladder is full of noobs.  Some classes are probably more forgiving for noobs than others, so those make it up through the tiers more easily.  Does that mean things are unbalanced, in a world of people who still don't really know the game/execute well?

 

A demonstration of a person straight-up dominating several classes people preach are OP through Gold tier shows it can be done, even against those classes preached to be OP.  You just have to do it right.

 

In a 1v1 game, that's crucial information to know when thinking about balance.  Maybe Destro can hit Plat more easily than FM, but if two players have in-depth knowledge and loads of experience in an FM/Destro match-up, and it's a fairly even result, is that not good enough?  How do you even quantify a class's difficulty in rising through the ranks relative to others enough to use that as a metric for balance?

 

Watching someone else do it should give you something to strive for, not something to dismiss because "he's just good".  

 

In my first post I already brought up my own thoughts on this matter. I don't think any class is so strong it can't be beat, or that it would be even difficult to do so if you're clearly better. I just think it's stupid to counter someone's concern about class balance with a video where players of different skill level fight each other.

 

EDIT: And I also think it's stupid to adamantly protect the statement that all classes would be equal, especially right now.

[Cogbyrn]

Just now, Gratus said:

 

In my first post I already brought up my own thoughts on this matter. I don't think any class is so strong it can't be beat, or that it would be even difficult to do so if you're clearly better. I just think it's stupid to counter someone's concern about class balance with a video where players of different skill level fight each other.

 

Fair enough.  I just disagree, and I wanted to explain why I thought you were wrong.  I think it's perfectly legitimate to counter a concern about class balance by demonstrating someone using the class well.