How does FM beat BM?

[Ujarac]

alright so I'm really wondering how the heck does an FM beat an a BM? like can anyone give me some tips or anything, and pls don't tell me to try to attack them from behind because I do try to do that and when I do they just ss right behind me so I'm no longer able to attack them from behind again. also freezing them with frost doesn't seem to work like it does on other classes as they just keep backing out of it or using some other skill to get out of the freezing, so 90% of the time their not even frozen, and even when they do get frozen their somehow able to move still when their frozen at the bottom ( which I don't understand cause the only way other classes get out of it is by backing out or spinning which they don't seem to do that). so with this can someone pls explain to me and tell me how am able to beat them ( ps pls don't shit talk me or tell me to just get could, I'm looking for legitimate help).

[Arkane]

The reason they move even with the frozen debuff on them, is due to a skill they have (can't remember the exact name) that has small little black blades floating around them (that blocks projectiles too). When this particular skill is up, they are immune to any kind of snare, so they are free to move as if there was no freeze (or chill for that matter). 

 

To be very honest, beating them is hard, because unlike other melee classes they can remove chill just by using SS, other classes can only remove freeze using the same method. So, if you see them use SS, get ready to iframe/frost sheath/frost armor, or anything else, cause they will almost guarantee try to 5pt or stun you in some manner. Other than that, judicial use of your 4 (force grab) is a good means of forcing some plays. They do have a skill that will escape from force grab (z skill, a bazillion blades come flying out and knock you back), do your best to iframe this. The CD for this skill is much longer than force grab, so use your 4 again when you can. You have a few options depending on how you want to play. You can either toss them away to give you distance, make sure to re-apply chill, and it gives you time to do a little dmg at least; you can let the 6 seconds run out and there will be a small time where you can do dmg to them while they get up; or if you need focus, use your 4. Do your best to keep up a frost orb at all times, other than that, a lot of practice.

 

I avoided talking about pvp hongmoon skills, because I don't know if you have them. If you do, then it'll make life easier, especially hongmoon impact, since it'll now be able to counter melee attacks.

[Suna]

There is multiple ways how fm can start their combo against bm. Most popular is tab daze, second is after grab, q/e then instant stun is one way, breaking defense with snowball, some fms like using frost burst for freezing and then start the combo. The best way is learn how your opponent class works so you can guess what is the next move. And if you dont know your own basic pvp comboes, learn them at first.

[ARC1276]

Watch out for draw stance btw, they have a stun hidden there and they are immune to movement (or so I've seen but I think that's because my opponent was a bot). You might also want to try timing your tabs, use them only when they stun you, no other time than that. And only use your F retreat when they enter flock of blades stance. 

 

Other than that they've already explained it for you.

[Avalyn]

Honestly FM has huge advantage on BM, the false rumor that BM beats FM has been going around ever since launch because at lower ELO which is majority of population every FM is like "omg BM just block all day wtf do I do" especially because lower ELO is also full of parry block. FM can basically "turret & chill" every other class during their openings but BM has 0 downtime block so it forces the FM to play differently. Also you gotta learn your combo because turreting isn't going to fly in high ELO even against other classes.

 

Double tab escapes, double ice, HM impact, and chill/freeze mechanics combined with good kiting should allow you to blow off all the BM's dash skills and avoid almost all CC. The fact that you can disable BM's dashes all day allows you to control when they will use it, and have your defenses ready to intercept it. Also it stalls a lot of time for your tab/SS to ensure that BM will never catch you in a combo.

 

1:26:17

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[Ujarac]

alright I can agree with you that FM can atleast beat BM after looking at the video you posted but I don't agree with that they have an advantage. maybe their on equal footing but no where near having an advantage in my opinion. I have tried to do what everyone says and iframe their charges or do some of the combos to keep them lockdown. but it is still not an easy fight against them like most other classes are. as for doing that one combo that knocks them in the air and then you aerial force grip, that one does not really seem practical to do in arena as it seems kinda hard to do and easy to mess up ( this mite just be me, cause I've tried this countless times and never get it right) and also doesn't seem like it does alot of damage for the amount of stuff you have to do ( also this mite just be me, maybe I'm doing something wrong with the combo).

[Talinoth]

I watched some of those clips and the FM was doing something I definitely can't - attacking directly into a BM's block without getting deflected.

 

If I hit into any BM's block I will get deflected and lose half my health on the spot. Trying to copy what that FM is somehow capable of doing is suicide.

That FM also appears to have an ability where his RMB chills the BM even though the BM is blocking. I don't have that - it's a HM skill that has not yet been released in NA.

 

Thirdly, trying to copy what people do in Korean pro play isn't even remotely helpful, mainly because server lag will simply not allow you to perform the combos those two players can.

Those guys play with essentially 0ms input delay - they're on an in-house LAN server. Most players in NA play with at least 100ms ping. I play with upwards of 300ms, sometimes even goes up to 400ms.

 

There was a specific combo that FM did that I can't copy at 1:27:44 - he used HM Phantom Grip to disable the BM's block (I don't have that ability btw, and won't have it for months), hit F to apply 2 chill stacks, then did RMB-1 -> RMB-LMB-Tab to knock the BM into the air.

 

1: The FM would have been deflected while the BM was standing up if not for HM Grip's block disable.

2: He added an extra RMB as the BM was lying down - you usually can't start a combo from a Grip -> Dragonfrost if you can't score a direct freeze during the grip

3: The FM air launched the BM from an Impact stun - if you've ever tried to do this yourself, you'll know that the timing window is extremely small to pull this off and you can only do it when the servers are cooperating with you - or if your ping is low enough, period.

 

Also, for some dumb reason the BM wasted both their Flock of Blades (can stop the grip) and their F roll (negates the final part of the combo, which does most of the damage) - on top of that, they also had their ground counter disabled by Aerial Phantom Grip. Let's not hold this up as an even remotely realistic way to kill a BM - you need astounding timing/very low ping, and an opponent who wastes every last one of their lifelines.

 

Finally, you need a TON of skillpoints to spec all of the skills required for this without sacrificing your core defensive abilities. HM Phantom Grip, Rising Blaze (Z air launcher) + Aerial Phantom Grip (at least T2 to disable Defense) were all required for this combo. To actually get them to the point you can even pull this off, you still need HM Dragonchar, HM Impact, and HM Frost Palm.

 

To spec all of this stuff without making huge sacrifices you'd need HM 13/14 - HM 11 at bare minimum.

 

Let's not pretend this matchup is close to even just yet. Winnable sure - but not even.

[Avalyn]

If you're playing with 300-400 ping, it's not worth talking about this. The expectation is that you have at most 150-200 ping in PvP, so you can't just take your own experiences at 300-400 ping and then complain about why you can't win. I'm talking about how your normal 100 ping FM who's maybe like HM 9-10 by now from launch can change his playstyle to go against BM.

 

First off in the current patch, all HM skills have been released. This FM Yoon JeongHo is playing against Han JunHo who is best BM in the world, JunHo won 2nd place in that video (Season 1 2016) and then 1st place later in season 2. The BM was forced to use his flock because he got frozen in place without his SS, and it removes all snares. The FM knew this and grabbed him right away to punish that. Also, in higher ELO all BM's are using Form 3 Tier 5 HM block which does not deflect. You sacrifice the deflect but in return you get one of the best iframes in the game that can bait snowball, phantom grips, etc.

 

A lot of PvP is about practicing your timing, especially when you want to punish escapes. Tech chasing, re-cc'ing after ground counter, and combos are all about timing. If you want to go higher it's just something you will have to deal with.

[Talinoth]

I make it to low Gold every season, but not much further. I can win against BMs roughly 30% of the time. It's still not an even matchup though. A typical win usually involves them blowing Flock of Blades to extend a damage combo (BIG mistake) instead of using it to stop a Phantom Grip.

 

More than anything, it looks like JunHo got mindgamed really hard. I don't think I saw him land even a single pull, Five Point Strike got i-framed with Frost Armor nearly every time, and it looked like he was actually afraid to approach. There were also a couple of times where the FM managed to land a stun beam after dashing directly behind the opponent, which shouldn't ever be happening. (BM is really dropping the ball there.)

 

The FM was a much better player that day, and seemed to just think faster and act faster.

 

-

 

Getting the skills to replicate some of this stuff (HM Dragonchar, HM Phantom Grip) will set me back a lot of gold that I just don't have. It's amazing that anyone already has HM Grip. I'm going for my white Legendary weapon at the moment, which with Prem Silverfrost Trans Stones + Moonstones alone will set me back 2.4k gold or so (price varies with market conditions), meanwhile these pvp skills would cost me, at last check, 250 gold or so for HM Dragonchar + 1.3k gold or so for the Offals from Gloomdross and Masts.

 

- 2.4k gold for my practically mandatory upgrade to Legendary. (SSP is savage right now, I need the legendary just to keep up.)

- 1.5k (or so) for 100% required pvp skills.

TOTAL; 3.9k gold in expenses.

So roughly 2 months before the FM vs BM matchup is more or less fair.

 

I'm at Hongmoon 11 right now, and I barely have enough points to fit T4S2 Snowball into my build. HM Dragonchar and HM Grip will cost me an extra six points (I currently use T2S2 Dragonchar instead of T3S2 [no knockback, just Daze] in order to save points, same with using T2S1 Grip instead of T3S1). Where will those skill points come from? The time to spend hundreds of dollars on Cold Storage resets to get HM 13/14 has already been and gone. That's over now.

 

There's too many prerequisites for all of this. The game is balanced around levels and HM abilities that most players don't have. Players were told the pvp is balanced - and it IS - but that's only true if everyone is HM 15 with *ALL* of their HM abilities unlocked.

[Avalyn]

I have true breeze 560 AP and all my HM skills. It's good enough to run all dungeons and I get all my PvP functionality. If you're going for legendary that's your choice of prioritization SSP > PvP but for anyone who prioritizes PvP it's very possible to have all HM skills at this point.

 

JunHo did tilt a little but even on a good day this is more or less how FM vs BM is supposed to look. I talked about how FM controls the flow of the fight and decides when BM is able to approach, well this is how it plays out. For example if he's frozen all the time and then SS to remove it, FM knows a 5 point strike is coming. He can also count the 24s CD of pull and dodge it because the BM has no other way of getting close. If he sees a cyclone he can spam his HM impact since he knows snares just got removed. 

[Shuchin]

9 hours ago, Talinoth said:

The FM was a much better player that day, and seemed to just think faster and act faster.

JeongHO Yoon is maybe the strongest FM player in the world right now, I have seen him do amazing stuff in single _and_ tag matches. He was second in last year's worlds, beating Jaesung, the FM world champion of 2014 in the semi-finals. So no surprise if Eyebrows was nervous. XD

 

It's really hard to talk about class balance in the top tier, I think there it's all really really close. But FM is definitely among the strongest in potential.

In lower tier, it's simply true what has been stated: huge advantage for the BM. As my BM clan mate put it: "FM are a free kill".

 

But lots of tips already from the above posters. I think it's something of a consolation to know that as you progress and get better, the disadvantage will get smaller. ^_^

[DeadlyCode]

On 8/7/2016 at 5:07 PM, Talinoth said:

I watched some of those clips and the FM was doing something I definitely can't - attacking directly into a BM's block without getting deflected.

 

If I hit into any BM's block I will get deflected and lose half my health on the spot. Trying to copy what that FM is somehow capable of doing is suicide.

That FM also appears to have an ability where his RMB chills the BM even though the BM is blocking. I don't have that - it's a HM skill that has not yet been released in NA.

 

Thirdly, trying to copy what people do in Korean pro play isn't even remotely helpful, mainly because server lag will simply not allow you to perform the combos those two players can.

Those guys play with essentially 0ms input delay - they're on an in-house LAN server. Most players in NA play with at least 100ms ping. I play with upwards of 300ms, sometimes even goes up to 400ms.

 

There was a specific combo that FM did that I can't copy at 1:27:44 - he used HM Phantom Grip to disable the BM's block (I don't have that ability btw, and won't have it for months), hit F to apply 2 chill stacks, then did RMB-1 -> RMB-LMB-Tab to knock the BM into the air.

 

1: The FM would have been deflected while the BM was standing up if not for HM Grip's block disable.

2: He added an extra RMB as the BM was lying down - you usually can't start a combo from a Grip -> Dragonfrost if you can't score a direct freeze during the grip

3: The FM air launched the BM from an Impact stun - if you've ever tried to do this yourself, you'll know that the timing window is extremely small to pull this off and you can only do it when the servers are cooperating with you - or if your ping is low enough, period.

 

Also, for some dumb reason the BM wasted both their Flock of Blades (can stop the grip) and their F roll (negates the final part of the combo, which does most of the damage) - on top of that, they also had their ground counter disabled by Aerial Phantom Grip. Let's not hold this up as an even remotely realistic way to kill a BM - you need astounding timing/very low ping, and an opponent who wastes every last one of their lifelines.

 

Finally, you need a TON of skillpoints to spec all of the skills required for this without sacrificing your core defensive abilities. HM Phantom Grip, Rising Blaze (Z air launcher) + Aerial Phantom Grip (at least T2 to disable Defense) were all required for this combo. To actually get them to the point you can even pull this off, you still need HM Dragonchar, HM Impact, and HM Frost Palm.

 

To spec all of this stuff without making huge sacrifices you'd need HM 13/14 - HM 11 at bare minimum.

 

Let's not pretend this matchup is close to even just yet. Winnable sure - but not even.

From what i know the RMB skill of FM(chill) it Parry, Defense Penetration or something like that when you get the HM version, not sure if that's whats happening in the video but thats most likely what it is, KR has that HM skill i guess

[TwoPunchMan092]

On 8.8.2016 at 1:16 PM, Shuchin said:

It's really hard to talk about class balance in the top tier, I think there it's all really really close. But FM is definitely among the strongest in potential.

In lower tier, it's simply true what has been stated: huge advantage for the BM. As my BM clan mate put it: "FM are a free kill".

As a BM i can confirm this, unfortunately. Although i have had some really good FMs who managed to kill me and leaving me with no chance to counter i must say that the majority of the lower tier FMs cant or simply dont know how to deal with BM. I have seen many FMs conplaining that BM only has to spam block, but this is totally incorrect. Its the same as if i would say that FMs only have to spam 10 second freeze and self-heal.

[Shuchin]

Back in the days when the NA/EU version was fresh out (was that this year? feels like an eternity ago XD ), FMs would totally dominate all the newbie KFMs just with machine gun freeze stacks.

In those days, switching to stage 4 counter (1 additional attack resisted for 1 second on counter) was enough to turn the KFM into a BM mimic and win the fight.

 

By now it's still easy for me, but only because I lose against assassins and blade dancers so often that I do not reach the rank where the FMs are good. :P

In tag match I run into good FMs more often, and some of them totally own the whole fight. 1v3 and no exaggeration. That self heal is just crazy against any group that does not know well how to burst combo. O.O'