Current class numbers in gold+ disgust me

[Cogbyrn]

8 hours ago, Zooks said:

 

WTF are you even talking about? Summoners have 33% representation and there's seven classes. There's more representation for summoners than there is for Sin, KFM, BM, and FM combined. The obvious conclusion is that Summoners are really *cricket* strong in the current meta. 

 

That's exactly what I'm talking about.  You stop at 1 data point because it conveniently supports the idea you want to believe.  There's no questioning the data, no examining other ideas, and no questioning whether the amount of data we have is inconclusive.  Just a hard-stop at 1 set of numbers.

 

All I see is that Summoners are the most popular.

 

5 hours ago, voodooblade said:

As much as I appreciate you trying to use pure mathematics to shatter their delusions, you know using infallible factual data. However those denying the gap suffer from strong denial. But I will be sure to spam this thread to respond to everyone now, ty.

 

Data is always infallible and factual when you twist it to tell the story you want it to tell.  Just because there are numbers on the screen doesn't mean you've been justified.  Even numbers are up for interpretation.  If you aren't open to different interpretations, then you have no business handling numbers or jumping to conclusions.

[Michieltjuhh]

6 hours ago, Destinykraze said:

Same here. I think summoners are only a problem for lower tiers. silver and gold. If you check China and korea servers. Summoners no where near the majority of the top tier classes.

I noticed that latency might also play a part. Assassin and BD is dominating the diamond tier though, not that low tiers pvpers have any chance see that. Diamond assassin here.

If you're going to make things up, atleast make sure you've played the game in the past 3 days. There's no one in diamond yet in Europe and I strongly doubt it's any different for NA, so nobody's buying your bullsh!t. The ladders clearly indicate that Summoners even at the top are by far the most dominant. But I bet when you were trying to make up your own facts you didn't even know ladders were introduced yet.

Nobody gives a damn about Chinese and Korean servers. We got shipped this garbage, so we expect this garbage to be shining, not remain garbage until they finally decide to patch it up fully. People aren't going to wait for that.

[wizzz420]

http://www.killping.com/blog/how-to-fix-blade-and-soul-high-ping/

^

check this up xD top 3 classes in game atm and reason why are they top 3 

[Zooks]

11 minutes ago, Cogbyrn said:

 

That's exactly what I'm talking about.  You stop at 1 data point because it conveniently supports the idea you want to believe.  There's no questioning the data, no examining other ideas, and no questioning whether the amount of data we have is inconclusive.  Just a hard-stop at 1 set of numbers.

 

All I see is that Summoners are the most popular.

 

 

Data is always infallible and factual when you twist it to tell the story you want it to tell.  Just because there are numbers on the screen doesn't mean you've been justified.  Even numbers are up for interpretation.  If you aren't open to different interpretations, then you have no business handling numbers or jumping to conclusions.

 

Alright, alright. You're smart. Care to hypothesize why there are 30 Summoners in the top 100? It's the only data point we have access to. Drawing a conclusion from it seems pretty reasonable to me. Unless you want me to throw around some chicken bones and tea leaves and try to divine some other data points for you. 

 

edit: So you think Summoners are so well represented in the top 100 simply because it's a popular class. Jesus, talk about cognitive dissonance. 

[Michieltjuhh]

3 minutes ago, Cogbyrn said:

 

That's exactly what I'm talking about.  You stop at 1 data point because it conveniently supports the idea you want to believe.  There's no questioning the data, no examining other ideas, and no questioning whether the amount of data we have is inconclusive.  Just a hard-stop at 1 set of numbers.

 

All I see is that Summoners are the most popular.

 

 

Data is always infallible and factual when you twist it to tell the story you want it to tell.  Just because there are numbers on the screen doesn't mean you've been justified.  Even numbers are up for interpretation.  If you aren't open to different interpretations, then you have no business handling numbers or jumping to conclusions.

You must have never played or followed an eSport in your life. Professional players reroll to what is the most BROKEN, not what is the most CONVENIENT TO PLAY. A fine example of recent times is Azir in League of Legends. He was borderline overpowered. Incredibly hard to play, but professionals flocked to him like birds (pun intended). Meanwhile some of the easier-gratification champions didn't get played eventhough they were far easier to get good at. Eventually he got nerfed. Then nerfed again, and again, because he kept being dominant in the hands of a good player.
Another example is StarCraft 2. I'm a Grandmaster player there and the only real reason I got there was because at the start of this expansion my main race, Protoss, dominated the hell out of the Terran race. Yes, some Korean Terran players still did fine. That doesn't mean that Protoss was balanced against them. You would've argued it was, simply because a few Korean gods managed to continue wrecking as Terran. And even the slow-as-hell Blizzard did some balance changes recently.

That said, Summoner and BD aren't so popular at high levels because they're CONVENIENT. They're popular because they're BROKEN. That they're also the EASIER ones to play only makes matters worse. Easy to master, broken when mastered. KFM is a fine example of something that might also need a nerf despite being far more difficult to pull off at a good level.

[Cogbyrn]

9 minutes ago, Zooks said:

 

Alright, alright. You're smart. Care to hypothesize why there are 30 Summoners in the top 100? It's the only data point we have access to. Drawing a conclusion from it seems pretty reasonable to me. Unless you want me to throw around some chicken bones and tea leaves and try to divine some other data points for you. 

 

edit: So you think Summoners are so well represented in the top 100 simply because it's a popular class. Jesus, talk about cognitive dissonance. 

 

cog·ni·tive dis·so·nance
the state of having inconsistent thoughts, beliefs, or attitudes, especially as relating to behavioral decisions and attitude change.

 

Did you even know what that phrase meant?  If not, you shouldn't use it.  I don't know what about my thoughts you've found to be inconsistent, because I've said basically the same thing over and over and over.

 

Why are there 30 Summoners in the Top 100?  Maybe because there are about 33%ish Summoners in Gold+ based on numbers in other threads.  Maybe because about 30% of the population is playing Summoner.  Why could that be?

 

1.  The class is overpowered.

2.  The class is popular for aesthetic reason (silly cat pets maybe).

3.  The class has been deemed overpowered by the community and thus has high representation because people flock to it like sheep, hoping for easy wins.

4.  The class is easier to grasp, and those frustrated with having difficulty learning a different class switch to Summoner because they hear it's easier.

 

If 33% of Gold+ players are Summoners, and 33% of Top 100 players are Summoners, what does that tell you?  I'm legitimately asking you.  To me it says that 33% of the players are Summoners, and that ratio stays consistent through the tiers.  Is that not balance?  What do you want to see?  12% of players playing each class?  That isn't going to happen for a slew of reasons, as it never does in any MMO. 

 

I just think using a simple population isn't a very good way to try to balance your game, especially considering how fickle players are.

[kuro1n]

3 minutes ago, Cogbyrn said:

 

cog·ni·tive dis·so·nance
the state of having inconsistent thoughts, beliefs, or attitudes, especially as relating to behavioral decisions and attitude change.

 

Did you even know what that phrase meant?  If not, you shouldn't use it.  I don't know what about my thoughts you've found to be inconsistent, because I've said basically the same thing over and over and over.

 

Why are there 30 Summoners in the Top 100?  Maybe because there are about 33%ish Summoners in Gold+ based on numbers in other threads.  Maybe because about 30% of the population is playing Summoner.  Why could that be?

 

1.  The class is overpowered.

2.  The class is popular for aesthetic reason (silly cat pets maybe).

3.  The class has been deemed overpowered by the community and thus has high representation because people flock to it like sheep, hoping for easy wins.

4.  The class is easier to grasp, and those frustrated with having difficulty learning a different class switch to Summoner because they hear it's easier.

 

If 33% of Gold+ players are Summoners, and 33% of Top 100 players are Summoners, what does that tell you?  I'm legitimately asking you.  To me it says that 33% of the players are Summoners, and that ratio stays consistent through the tiers.  Is that not balance?  What do you want to see?  12% of players playing each class?  That isn't going to happen for a slew of reasons, as it never does in any MMO. 

 

I just think using a simple population isn't a very good way to try to balance your game, especially considering how fickle players are.

You take the number 30% of players out of your ass that is the problem. If you run around in the world do you feel that 30% of the players are summoners for real because truly I do not.

 

Last night at ~2am when I checked 46% of the players in plat+ in EU were summoners.

[Jamein]

8 minutes ago, Cogbyrn said:

 

 

If 33% of Gold+ players are Summoners, and 33% of Top 100 players are Summoners, what does that tell you?  

It actually tells us literally nothing. So do all the other statistics flying around in the thread right now.

The leaderboards will give us better insight a few weeks down the line when the top players are moving through diamond and then we can completely ignore anything below platinum because honestly bronze to gold is just too low rank to take any meaning from it.

 

If you're trying to balance classes, you look at the top end, so in other words, we can't see anything yet other than people are steamrolling lower ranked players who don't understand mechanics with easy to play classes. Destroyers can 'spin2win' sub platinum, after that they either need to get good or get absolutely wrecked by a player who can exploit a spinning destroyer. Which is why right now the rankings mean nothing until the player base spreads out over the ranks a little more and the top end starts to separate. 

[Zooks]

9 minutes ago, Cogbyrn said:

 

cog·ni·tive dis·so·nance
the state of having inconsistent thoughts, beliefs, or attitudes, especially as relating to behavioral decisions and attitude change.

 

Did you even know what that phrase meant?  If not, you shouldn't use it.  I don't know what about my thoughts you've found to be inconsistent, because I've said basically the same thing over and over and over.

 

Why are there 30 Summoners in the Top 100?  Maybe because there are about 33%ish Summoners in Gold+ based on numbers in other threads.  Maybe because about 30% of the population is playing Summoner.  Why could that be?

 

1.  The class is overpowered.

2.  The class is popular for aesthetic reason (silly cat pets maybe).

3.  The class has been deemed overpowered by the community and thus has high representation because people flock to it like sheep, hoping for easy wins.

4.  The class is easier to grasp, and those frustrated with having difficulty learning a different class switch to Summoner because they hear it's easier.

 

If 33% of Gold+ players are Summoners, and 33% of Top 100 players are Summoners, what does that tell you?  I'm legitimately asking you.  To me it says that 33% of the players are Summoners, and that ratio stays consistent through the tiers.  Is that not balance?  What do you want to see?  12% of players playing each class?  That isn't going to happen for a slew of reasons, as it never does in any MMO. 

 

I just think using a simple population isn't a very good way to try to balance your game, especially considering how fickle players are.

 

If 30+ of the top 100 players are Summoners, it means that Summoners are probably extremely strong, bordering on OP. Is this your first MMORPG or game with ELO? Because I'm telling you right now, there aren't 30 Summoners in the top 100 because people like to play kawaii lolis with cats. Out of curiosity, what's your main?

[PsyFu]

On 2/11/2016 at 4:02 PM, Roxefeller said:

Everything is quite balanced. You as a player however will not be balanced by patches. This is something you must do yourself. Practice and get better. Simple. Don't blame it on balance or lack thereof.

Summoners are really pissing me off this patch. Was very excited about some balance but it's obviously not the case.

 

Sorry but it's not balanced till we hit 50 mate. You can't sit her and tell me that you KNOW it's balanced. I was platinum last patch so yes I need to learn more as we all do but it's not as balanced as you think when we don't have all our skills yet. Some classes don't need the new skills we are getting but some do much worse without theirs.

[Cogbyrn]

4 minutes ago, kuro1n said:

You take the number 30% of players out of your ass that is the problem. If you run around in the world do you feel that 30% of the players are summoners for real because truly I do not.

 

Last night at ~2am when I checked 46% of the players in plat+ in EU were summoners.

 

I'm trying to use the numbers given to me.  Zooks said 33%.  Zooks said 30/100 were Summoners in the Top 100.  If we have no other numbers for total population, then we can't really draw any conclusions.  Which is the point, really.  But even within the numbers provided, it seems like there's a pattern of balance, since the distribution in his example appeared balance.  Plus, other threads have given summaries of Gold+ numbers, and Summoner was around 33-35%.

 

Where are you even querying this data?  I'd like to take a look sometime.

[kuro1n]

From the game, it's all there.

Right now I am doing it by hand since I don't dare injecting any DLL, the risk of ban is too big.

[GrayT]

13 minutes ago, Cogbyrn said:

 

cog·ni·tive dis·so·nance
the state of having inconsistent thoughts, beliefs, or attitudes, especially as relating to behavioral decisions and attitude change.

 

Did you even know what that phrase meant?  If not, you shouldn't use it.  I don't know what about my thoughts you've found to be inconsistent, because I've said basically the same thing over and over and over.

 

Why are there 30 Summoners in the Top 100?  Maybe because there are about 33%ish Summoners in Gold+ based on numbers in other threads.  Maybe because about 30% of the population is playing Summoner.  Why could that be?

 

1.  The class is overpowered.

2.  The class is popular for aesthetic reason (silly cat pets maybe).

3.  The class has been deemed overpowered by the community and thus has high representation because people flock to it like sheep, hoping for easy wins.

4.  The class is easier to grasp, and those frustrated with having difficulty learning a different class switch to Summoner because they hear it's easier.

 

If 33% of Gold+ players are Summoners, and 33% of Top 100 players are Summoners, what does that tell you?  I'm legitimately asking you.  To me it says that 33% of the players are Summoners, and that ratio stays consistent through the tiers.  Is that not balance?  What do you want to see?  12% of players playing each class?  That isn't going to happen for a slew of reasons, as it never does in any MMO. 

 

I just think using a simple population isn't a very good way to try to balance your game, especially considering how fickle players are.

Thats why 33% of the coments here are from SUM player that dont want the nerf...

[Cogbyrn]

3 minutes ago, Zooks said:

 

If 30+ of the top 100 players are Summoners, it means that Summoners are probably extremely strong, bordering on OP. Is this your first MMORPG or game with ELO? Because I'm telling you right now, there aren't 30 Summoners in the top 100 because people like to play kawaii lolis with cats. Out of curiosity, what's your main?

 

I main FM, and I have yet to beat a Summoner in the Arena because I don't Arena much, my ping in the evenings is ultra garbage, and I haven't quite figured out exactly how I want to approach them.  That doesn't mean Summoners are OP based on my experience, it means I have something to learn.

 

And you aren't in any place to tell me anything unless you have numbers to support it.  I'm just giving you ideas that should make you question numbers.

[Roxefeller]

2 minutes ago, PsyFu said:

Summoners are really pissing me off this patch. Was very excited about some balance but it's obviously not the case.

 

Sorry but it's not balanced till we hit 50 mate. You can't sit her and tell me that you KNOW it's balanced. I was platinum last patch so yes I need to learn more as we all do but it's not as balanced as you think when we don't have all our skills yet. Some classes don't need the new skills we are getting but some do much worse without theirs.

Every class was represented in Diamond LAST PATCH. This is a direct example of balance. The number of each class is irrelevant. NA players will flock to whatever class they feel is the strongest/more OP. That's just how it is. This game comes down to skill. That's it. Stop complaining already! Spend the time you're wasting here on something productive.. like... practicing!

[Jamein]

Just now, Cogbyrn said:

 

Sorry, I'm doing some work and can't check.  Where in the game are the numbers there?  Just in the Arena Lobby?  If so that's awesome, and I'll see if I can take a look later.

Press F11

[Cogbyrn]

Just now, kuro1n said:

From the game, it's all there.

Right now I am doing it by hand since I don't dare injecting any DLL, the risk of ban is too big.

 

Sorry, I'm doing some work and can't check.  Where in the game are the numbers there?  Just in the Arena Lobby?  If so that's awesome, and I'll see if I can take a look later.

[Michieltjuhh]

3 minutes ago, Zooks said:

 

If 30+ of the top 100 players are Summoners, it means that Summoners are probably extremely strong, bordering on OP. Is this your first MMORPG or game with ELO? Because I'm telling you right now, there aren't 30 Summoners in the top 100 because people like to play kawaii lolis with cats. Out of curiosity, what's your main?

+1

As I said before, Summoner and BD are so popular because they're broken, not because they're easy. Good players don't care if something is easy to play, they care if something is overpowered when played well. Just because Summoner and BD are also overpowered when played badly (against other people playing other classes badly, mind you) doesn't mean that they're not overpowered when played well against other people playing other classes well.

[PsyFu]

1 minute ago, Roxefeller said:

Every class was represented in Diamond LAST PATCH. This is a direct example of balance. The number of each class is irrelevant. NA players will flock to whatever class they feel is the strongest/more OP. That's just how it is. This game comes down to skill. That's it. Stop complaining already! Spend the time you're wasting here on something productive.. like... practicing!

I can complain if I want to buddy. Who tf are you to tell me what to do? You are not my guild leader..

[Cogbyrn]

3 minutes ago, Jamein said:

Press F11

 

Thank you!

[Roxefeller]

1 minute ago, PsyFu said:

I can complain if I want to buddy. Who tf are you to tell me what to do? You are not my guild leader..

If you wish to sit here complaining about a "lack of balance" between the classes, that's your prerogative. However, don't expect anything to change because you're here whining about it instead of spending the time practicing which is the ONLY way anything will change. Only you can change your current situation. The only way you can change it is through practice. Get to know your class' skills better so that you know what you need to use against a Summoner/Blade Dancer. Every class can beat every other class.

[Michieltjuhh]

2 minutes ago, Roxefeller said:

If you wish to sit here complaining about a "lack of balance" between the classes, that's your prerogative. However, don't expect anything to change because you're here whining about it instead of spending the time practicing which is the ONLY way anything will change. Only you can change your current situation. The only way you can change it is through practice. Get to know your class' skills better so that you know what you need to use against a Summoner/Blade Dancer. Every class can beat every other class.

Except that if that other player were to do the same, they'd still win, simply because Summoner/BD are also more POWERFUL when mastered, not only easier to master.

[Zooks]

Just now, Cogbyrn said:

 

Sorry, I'm doing some work and can't check.  Where in the game are the numbers there?  Just in the Arena Lobby?  If so that's awesome, and I'll see if I can take a look later.

 

So, you're talking all about data points and statistics without even bothering to look at the data for yourself. Press F11 in-game.

 

30+ out of 100 of the top players are Summoners. Seriously. If you have any experience with PVP and games with ranking (especially at high level play), you would realize that there's more going on than Summoners being popular. They are undoubtedly easier to master, but at high ranking people have a pretty firm grasp on their class, core mechanics, and the various matchups. The community HAS deemed Summoners OP as evidenced by the number of complaints about them on this forum. Okay, so there's more Summoners in the top 100 because of FOTM rerollers? There is a reason FOTM rerollers exist. 

[Roxefeller]

3 minutes ago, Michieltjuhh said:

Except that if that other player were to do the same, they'd still win, simply because Summoner/BD are also more POWERFUL when mastered, not only easier to master.

Even though it's not like this at all, since you fail to grasp that this game simply comes down to the player's skill. Nothing more. Nothing less. A Force Master won the last community tournament and Force Master is perceived to be among the weakest of classes next to Blade Master. Guess what? He fought every class, including Blade Dancer and Summoner.. So.... just stop.

[Roxefeller]

Just now, Roxefeller said:

Even though it's not like this at all, since you fail to grasp that this game simply comes down to the player's skill. Nothing more. Nothing less. A Force Master won the last community tournament and Force Master is perceived to be among the weakest of classes next to Blade Master. Guess what? He fought every class, including Blade Dancer and Summoner.. So.... just stop.

Also.. these players from this tournament were Diamond ranked players.