[Suggestion] Make lower tier upgrade items tradeable

[Nemises]

To keep it straight:

- Blackstone

- Silver Scale

- Onyx Scale

should be all tradeable like the tookens of the former tower of infinity seasons after a new tier is implemented [edit].

 

pros:

- new starting friends can be pushed faster in gear by older players

- players that don't need those scales at the moment (maybe for a toon later) can sell them on the market

 

cons are up to you, I'd like to see if there are any reasonable.

Edited July 7, 2020 by Nemises

[ImoutoMaster]

vor 2 Minuten schrieb Nemises:

To keep it straight:

- Blackstone

- Silver Scale

- Onyx Scale

should be tradeable like the tookens of the former tower of infinity seasons.

They are tradable but sold at a way to big price. Instead of making our current Black stones etc. tradable they could simply increase the drop rate of tradable ones which i would prefer

its easy enough to get good gear nowdays.

vor 2 Minuten schrieb Nemises:

pros:

- new starting friends can be pushed faster in gear by older players

Con: You will have even more players which do like 30% of the damage they are supposed to. If we push new players to hard it can also backfire cause we will have even less capable people for mechanics in high end dungeons.

 

Con: The worth of gear gets pushed down even more. Currently if you dont have atleast GC 6 you are a pleb and alot of groups kick you even tho your dmg is more than enough. For example i am currently upgrading my 2nd sf. This SF does currently 2 Million burst and 1 Million stable (sadly cause dont have soul badge yet) even with this sf i can do TSM for example solo but alot of people kick me or simply leave my group.

 

Con: Thoose items drop tons in the low tier dungeons and no one wants them. If you make them all tradable it might result in even more cost for new players cause other players will bid on them even if they dont need them cause they can be sold.

 

[Grimoir]

I would be for no, mainly because its farming for those materials that gives them a chance to learn dungeons and mechanics. With those items being tradable, the price would plummet so far down into copper that it would not be worth to sell them, and if sold, you just cut 90% of the content from players coming into the game.

[Nemises]

11 minutes ago, ImoutoMaster said:

They are tradable but sold at a way to big price. Instead of making our current Black stones etc. tradable they could simply increase the drop rate of tradable ones which i would prefer

I edited the original post to be more precise: There shouldn't be an account bound version anymore (like former ToI tookens)

13 minutes ago, ImoutoMaster said:

its easy enough to get good gear nowdays.

No doubt about that, but that's worth another topic and as you still need gold to buy the items from the market it is more a feature for returning players or players who get pushed in an already existing group of players.

17 minutes ago, ImoutoMaster said:

Con: You will have even more players which do like 30% of the damage they are supposed to. If we push new players to hard it can also backfire cause we will have even less capable people for mechanics in high end dungeons.

I don't see the mistake here in making these items tradeable. It is the easymode, where you literally need no gear and knowledge to run. I rarely see any hm party recruitments via f8 these days. This problem will occur until the devs decide to make mechs truly rewarding, even in easymode. So I don't think my suggestion will touch the core of this problem.

30 minutes ago, ImoutoMaster said:

on: The worth of gear gets pushed down even more. Currently if you dont have atleast GC 6 you are a pleb and alot of groups kick you even tho your dmg is more than enough. For example i am currently upgrading my 2nd sf. This SF does currently 2 Million burst and 1 Million stable (sadly cause dont have soul badge yet) even with this sf i can do TSM for example solo but alot of people kick me or simply leave my group.

Isn't that more an ideological problem of the community not trusting anyone because of the "bad impressions" made by some players who once a time were in the same dungeon?

37 minutes ago, ImoutoMaster said:

Con: Thoose items drop tons in the low tier dungeons and no one wants them. If you make them all tradable it might result in even more cost for new players cause other players will bid on them even if they dont need them cause they can be sold

Good argument this probably will happen. On the other hand if that happens the new players will get something, that they'll have hard to fight for now: gold. Even if it's just some silver it can help them.

[ImoutoMaster]

vor 37 Minuten schrieb Nemises:

I edited the original post to be more precise: There shouldn't be an account bound version anymore (like former ToI tookens)

I dont think we should make the non tradable ones tradable or atleast not thoose we have in our inventorys right now cause there will be to much then and the worth will be copper soon. Imagine other things like Soul stone crystals to get tradable this is not good for the market. NC could also remove the need for thoose scales completly would have the same effect for new players.

vor 37 Minuten schrieb Nemises:

No doubt about that, but that's worth another topic and as you still need gold to buy the items from the market it is more a feature for returning players or players who get pushed in an already existing group of players

I simply think since last update you start with litterly VT Gear after story while we started with BT Gear before. I dont think there is a need to reduce the cost even further atleast not now.

vor 37 Minuten schrieb Nemises:

I don't see the mistake here in making these items tradeable. It is the easymode, where you literally need no gear and knowledge to run. I rarely see any hm party recruitments via f8 these days. This problem will occur until the devs decide to make mechs truly rewarding, even in easymode. So I don't think my suggestion will touch the core of this problem.

Even easy mode does have mechanics if you dont do the damage. Not every group does have some endgame gear guy with multiple millions dps.

vor 37 Minuten schrieb Nemises:

Isn't that more an ideological problem of the community not trusting anyone because of the "bad impressions" made by some players who once a time were in the same dungeon?

Who is responsible for how the community evolves  ? Nearly every toxic thing community does is cause of NCsoft if you think about it. The Gear requirement is no different. Just look at J the Dungeon tab. Halcyon Hills with Aransu 3 ? new players will actully believe that.

 

[Nemises]

1 hour ago, Grimoir said:

I would be for no, mainly because its farming for those materials that gives them a chance to learn dungeons and mechanics. With those items being tradable, the price would plummet so far down into copper that it would not be worth to sell them, and if sold, you just cut 90% of the content from players coming into the game.

I would like to agree with you, but in which world do they have a chance to learn dungeons and mechanics? They are running easy mode in f8 and I've seen what happens in lesser geared parties if you want to explain and do mechanics. There are nearly always 1-2 people who don't care about the mechs because they realized, that they don't need them to get a reward of that dungeon. Even if the boss takes two minutes longer they don't care and mess up while other people try to learn. This item change will change nothing as long as easymode isn't reworked.

Giving an alterative is not cutting away 90% of the content for everyone. The dungeons are still part of the daily challenge rotation. The players have their own free choice to do so. Meanwhile players are paying gold and afking in CC for elder scales without learning any mechs of one of the latest dungeons. Yet I haven't seen any of them saying "Sadly I'm cutting my content by doing this". Free choice is something the devs permanently cut down in this game by restricting the market further and further. Allowing different ways to farm for item upgrades bringes diversity to an MMORPG. Without diversity it "just" can be a multiplayer online game which should concern the developers and publishers, as the word "massive" is the one that leads to more income.

[Nemises]

11 minutes ago, ImoutoMaster said:

I dont think we should make the non tradable ones tradable or atleast not thoose we have in our inventorys right now cause there will be to much then and the worth will be copper soon. Imagine other things like Soul stone crystals to get tradable this is not good for the market. NC could also remove the need for thoose scales completly would have the same effect for new players.

Yes maybe they could just "antique" the current items. However I don't feel well by erasing them totally from the game. They are the only farmable upgrade materials which aren't needed for all the stages.

 

15 minutes ago, ImoutoMaster said:

Even easy mode does have mechanics if you dont do the damage. Not every group does have some endgame gear guy with multiple millions dps.

Yep, but there are only a few bosses that will cause a party wipe, leading to a situation where you actually need to learn the mechanics.

17 minutes ago, ImoutoMaster said:

Who is responsible for how the community evolves  ? Nearly every toxic thing community does is cause of NCsoft if you think about it. The Gear requirement is no different. Just look at J the Dungeon tab. Halcyon Hills with Aransu 3 ? new players will actully believe that.

Uhm I don't know if you play the english version, but it says GC 3 for the normal mode. Maybe they messed up the translation?

[Grimoir]

57 minutes ago, Nemises said:

I would like to agree with you, but in which world do they have a chance to learn dungeons and mechanics? They are running easy mode in f8 and I've seen what happens in lesser geared parties if you want to explain and do mechanics. There are nearly always 1-2 people who don't care about the mechs because they realized, that they don't need them to get a reward of that dungeon. Even if the boss takes two minutes longer they don't care and mess up while other people try to learn. This item change will change nothing as long as easymode isn't reworked.

And i see daily players with TT level gear dying in RT, TSM. Regardless if they want to or not. It gives the realization that they have to know what they are doing else as the content goes up it will not be as easy to get carried anymore.

 

59 minutes ago, Nemises said:

Giving an alterative is not cutting away 90% of the content for everyone. The dungeons are still part of the daily challenge rotation. The players have their own free choice to do so. Meanwhile players are paying gold and afking in CC for elder scales without learning any mechs of one of the latest dungeons. Yet I haven't seen any of them saying "Sadly I'm cutting my content by doing this". Free choice is something the devs permanently cut down in this game by restricting the market further and further. Allowing different ways to farm for item upgrades bringes diversity to an MMORPG. Without diversity it "just" can be a multiplayer online game which should concern the developers and publishers, as the word "massive" is the one that leads to more income.

Do not bring in CC AFK farming into this. Because that is what those that afk pay gold for. Right now it is just as you say : "Allowing different ways to farm for item upgrades bringes diversity to an MMORPG" thats what Blackstones / Silver Scales currently are. There is a plethora of dungeons that give them, by allowing them to be marketable you are actually cutting that diversity because no one will run them anymore for farming as they would just flat out buy them. They already get a lot of gear "free" with even less grinding than they should. I would honestly rather they add a new purpose for those materials to retain their worth in the long run rather than make them sellable.

[Nemises]

1 hour ago, Grimoir said:

And i see daily players with TT level gear dying in RT, TSM. Regardless if they want to or not. It gives the realization that they have to know what they are doing else as the content goes up it will not be as easy to get carried anymore.

And you will see them also next year. This has nothing to do with how many times they run these dungeons. It doesn't matter to them because they are doable for them. It is a matter of mindset to play a mechanic in a dungeon where you don't need to to the mechanic anymore. While you may have this mindset most of the common players don't have, otherwise you wouldn't see so much failure every day. Running those dungeons 100 times will not change the mindset!

1 hour ago, Grimoir said:

Do not bring in CC AFK farming into this. Because that is what those that afk pay gold for.

Exactly someone is paying gold to get items, what's exactly the economical difference in buying those from the market for gold?

1 hour ago, Grimoir said:

There is a plethora of dungeons that give them, by allowing them to be marketable you are actually cutting that diversity because no one will run them anymore for farming as they would just flat out buy them.

Not really, diversity is a choice. You're giving the impression like nobody would have the choice to farm them by themselfes anymore, which is not true. Instead of giving people choices you're breaking it down to the most efficient way to farm and advertise it as it would be the only way. Not everyone and everything wants to be most efficient in a game. I would choose the second or even third efficient way to farm if it's more fun for me. Although I admit that I still would have an eye on how much more time I would spend on the second or third way, however it should be reasonable time difference in comparison to the most efficiently way.

 

If nobody runs the dungeons and everyone buys them out the supply would shrink and the demand rise, or am I missing something? This will lead to rising prices. It could come to the point where new players can't afford buying those items anymore, which would lead back to your dungeon farming scenario. Or actually more people would start farming them as some sort of additional income.

 

Furthermore I want to point out, that it's often a topic in this forum, that gold is hard to gain as a new player. If that's so then why should they buy an item, loose money and postpone their upgrades? Even if it doesn't give them an advantage in time it is their free choice to do so.

Edited July 7, 2020 by Nemises

[ImoutoMaster]

vor 18 Stunden schrieb Nemises:

Yep, but there are only a few bosses that will cause a party wipe, leading to a situation where you actually need to learn the mechanics.

Imagine being a new player with like Aransu Gear. Even tho it is not wipe for people like us with ET gear or even TT Gear they will die. Or for example Warped citadel. Have you ever seen a party with new players that survived last boss ? I havent i am usually the only one staying in the end cause i know the mechs if i wouldnt know them i would die aswell.

vor 18 Stunden schrieb Nemises:

Uhm I don't know if you play the english version, but it says GC 3 for the normal mode. Maybe they messed up the translation?

It dosent matter really what is written there my point it the requirements the game tells are needed for the dungeons are wrong. Just look at J tab how much of the recent dungeons (starting with Heavens mandate) do you think a player could actully do with the gear they ask for ? You also need to consider depending on gear how much knowledge a player should have with that gear. For example if Aransu 3 is required you can expect them to do like 60% of their DPS at best

 

P.S of course in this theoretically party everyone has the same gear no one comes and carrys them.

vor 17 Stunden schrieb Nemises:

If nobody runs the dungeons and everyone buys them out the supply would shrink and the demand rise, or am I missing something? This will lead to rising prices. It could come to the point where new players can't afford buying those items anymore, which would lead back to your dungeon farming scenario.

In theory this is correct but looking at how much scales exists and how much are needed i doubt they will ever run out. Even the most pleb player has thousands of them in stash.

vor 17 Stunden schrieb Nemises:

Or actually more people would start farming them as some sort of additional income.

Low level mats will never be expensive cause we dont have enough new players to reduce the ammount of thoose items ingame. Sadly most new players also quit right after story.

vor 17 Stunden schrieb Nemises:

Furthermore I want to point out, that it's often a topic in this forum, that gold is hard to gain as a new player.

Just look at new players they do earn way less than us endgame players thats true but you need to consider their upgrades are also way cheaper. If a new player knows how they can earn more than enough gold aswell but well they are new they dont know.

[Nemises]

3 hours ago, ImoutoMaster said:

Imagine being a new player with like Aransu Gear. Even tho it is not wipe for people like us with ET gear or even TT Gear they will die. Or for example Warped citadel. Have you ever seen a party with new players that survived last boss ? I havent i am usually the only one staying in the end cause i know the mechs if i wouldnt know them i would die aswell.

Then explain to me, why do many characters run these dungeons every single day still not knowing the mechanic. I'm really talking about meeting the same people in random parties. Why do they do the same mistakes after two weeks again, because they haven't got 100 runs yet? Because that's Grimoirs argument for forcing people 100 times in a dungeon. I sadly personally know people with 200+ runs in a dungeon still not knowing any mechanics. How does the ability to trade the above mentioned items takes massively influence on the majority of the players ability to play their character?

4 hours ago, ImoutoMaster said:

It dosent matter really what is written there my point it the requirements the game tells are needed for the dungeons are wrong. Just look at J tab how much of the recent dungeons (starting with Heavens mandate) do you think a player could actully do with the gear they ask for ? You also need to consider depending on gear how much knowledge a player should have with that gear. For example if Aransu 3 is required you can expect them to do like 60% of their DPS at best

While I get your point it does matter, as it's a false information. You mentioned yourself it's a matter of knowledge or capability of character play to be successful in the dungeon. Only because the game says you can, there is no guarantee that you will, people misunderstand that.

Only because a person has bought a nice car it doesn't mean the person is capable of driving it. While having this nice gear the person must have the ability to react to the changing surroundings like other cars, pedestrians and many more. How fast people are able to learn to react to those surroundings can't be predicted as it is a matter of too much hidden variables.

As you said you're expecting an Aransu 3 player to do 60% of the DPS they could to, I got the question: Is it the games fault they don't do also the last 40%?

5 hours ago, ImoutoMaster said:

In theory this is correct but looking at how much scales exists and how much are needed i doubt they will ever run out. Even the most pleb player has thousands of them in stash.

It would be a pleasure to have a comment to the possible solution to this problem I mentioned above.

5 hours ago, ImoutoMaster said:

Low level mats will never be expensive cause we dont have enough new players to reduce the ammount of thoose items ingame. Sadly most new players also quit right after story.

That's right, but they don't have to be expensive. As you mentioned new players earn less gold then older players, so it's okay to have a cheap price from an older players point of view. From a new players point of view the prices might be not that cheap but decent.

5 hours ago, ImoutoMaster said:

If a new player knows how they can earn more than enough gold aswell but well they are new they dont know.

So it would be worth the effort for new players to spend some time to discover it. I don't see any problems in that.

[ImoutoMaster]

vor 3 Minuten schrieb Nemises:

Then explain to me, why do many characters run these dungeons every single day still not knowing the mechanic. I'm really talking about meeting the same people in random parties. Why do they do the same mistakes after two weeks again, because they haven't got 100 runs yet?

I think you misunderstand. My oppinion is different i dont want PVE to be forced uppon you but if you want to PVE you should atleast be forced once into the low tier dungeons aswell. If you make the scales tradable thou there will be absoloutly no need anymore since the accesories are farmed via moon refugee or story nowdays.

vor 3 Minuten schrieb Nemises:

While I get your point it does matter, as it's a false information. You mentioned yourself it's a matter of knowledge or capability of character play to be successful in the dungeon. Only because the game says you can, there is no guarantee that you will, people misunderstand that.

Sorry but some of the requirements are way to low even if you have perfect knowledge you will not be able to finish the dungeon.  Just look at the tab and think about it will a group of 6 with exactly this gear manage this dungeon ? I doubt it most of the times.

vor 3 Minuten schrieb Nemises:

As you said you're expecting an Aransu 3 player to do 60% of the DPS they could to, I got the question: Is it the games fault they don't do also the last 40%?

It is not but the requirements are stated by actual human beaings. Someone must have thought about it and said "nah its fine thats plenty". If they would seperate between min gear and recommended gear requirements it would be another story but as it is not its simply misleading and new players will get annoyed cause everyone will kick them even tho the game tells them they have the gear.

vor 3 Minuten schrieb Nemises:

It would be a pleasure to have a comment to the possible solution to this problem I mentioned above.

Like i said i doubt it will ever run out.  So i dont think we need a solution. Maybe put in some crafting stuff to get something endgame player need to like black transformation stones or whatever.

vor 3 Minuten schrieb Nemises:

That's right, but they don't have to be expensive. As you mentioned new players earn less gold then older players, so it's okay to have a cheap price from an older players point of view. From a new players point of view the prices might be not that cheap but decent.

Thats most likely cause of their missing knowledge. Only thing ingame right now i think needs serious price adjustements for new players are legendary gem hammers cause its thousands of gold just to unlock the gem slots. Not only the weapon, pet too. Thats even for a endgame player a bit expensive.

vor 3 Minuten schrieb Nemises:

So it would be worth the effort for new players to spend some time to discover it. I don't see any problems in that.

I dont quiet get what you mean by that. To know how to farm gold in a reasonable time you need raids or PVP or 24/7 newest dungeon. New players cannot discover this immediatly. First they should be capped a bit by their gear so they can learn to play their classes.