Bees v Sunflower with parses

[Bits]

What this thread is for:

PvE parses of the summoner s3 bees spec and the sunflower spec. Discussion of the parses, and these builds in PvE, based on the data provided here by myself and others.

 

What it is not for:

QQ, conjecture, discussion of what is better in PvP, "well this is clearly better because I say" posts without data. There's plenty of threads for that already.

 

Thank you!

 

***

 

When the last skill change patch hit, I did my own testing and found that bees s3 did a lot more damage than sunflower for me. I decided to do some more tests today and screenshot the parses.

 

I'm testing on Profane Jiangshi boss in Necro 4man, because he's easy to solo - he stays on the cat and doesn't do things that make me break rotation, there's a DPS meter, and because the fight lasts me about 4 minutes, which is a nicer length for a parse than anything in Mushin's Tower. (My kingdom for a dummy with the DPS meter, ncsoft!)

I did seven complete parses for each build (sorry, OCD people). When testing I did more, but reset the boss when I made too many mistakes for it to be worthwhile data on either build.

 

On each fight, I CC'd and pinned the boss exactly twice. On the top parses I made no mistakes, on the lower ones I got knocked back once. I didn't use 4 seed shroud at all, thus none of the parses got the HM seed shroud buff. I cleared the mobs ahead of time on every parse, so the damage is the boss only.

 

My stats

 

 

My weapon is stage 6 baleful staff.

 

Sunflower

 

Sunflower - Tier 5 Stage 4

Rosethorn - Tier 5 Stage 2

Flying Nettles - Tier 3 Stage 3

 

Rotation:

LMB RMB spam, while moving from side to side with A and D constantly. 1, 2, 3, and both Fs used on cooldown, and holding RMB for super sunflower spam everytime overflow is active.

Always within 1-2m of the boss (not that it matters for this spec).

 

Damage:

Lowest damage: 23,140

Highest damage: 27, 309

Average damage: 24,941

 

Parses:

 

23,140

24,287
24,405

24,797
24,968
25,687
27,309

 

Rumblebees

 

Rumblebees - Tier 5 Stage 3

Rosethorn - Tier 5 Stage 1

Flying Nettles - Tier 3 Stage 3

 

Rotation:

LMB RMB spam, while moving from side to side with A and D constantly. 1, 2, 3 and both Fs used on cooldown. Always within 1-2m of the boss.

 

Damage:

Lowest damage: 26,297

Highest damage: 29,357

Average damage: 27,680

 

Parses:

 

26,297
26,728
27,077
27,512
27,994
28,801
29,357

 

Conclusion

 

Once again, for me bees s3 far outperforms sunflower. I'm particularly interested in whether or not this is the case for people with a lower level weapon, since the build is very focus-hungry, and the focus regen on weapons can be a huge variable. Obviously, crits is a big variable too, but I think the range of parses and the damage breakdown still shows that bees is higher regardless. I do want to note that in order to perform well with s3 bees, you must be in melee range and move constantly while casting. If you test this on a dummy, you can see how unbearably slow s3 bees is without moving. I should make a video comparison of it sometime.

 

[Alysha Hawkeye]

Third branch Rumblebee is basically Super Sunflower spam without any minor Sunflower in between. As long as you have focus, you can deal the same damage of Overflow Sunflower for a long time.

 

What stops it become useful for now is that it requires Rosethorn on hit to trigger instant cast. The projectile must hit the target first. If your opponent block/counter/evade, then you cannot cast instant Rumblebee, and the distance have a role here too, since Rosethorn needs time to travel from Summoner to the target, explaining why it works better in melee distance.

 

This might be changed when the next balance note will fix Rosethorn from on hit to on use, meaning that whether we use Rosethorn, Rumblebee becomes instant cast regardless of the hit from projectile or the distance.

[Grimoir]

4 hours ago, Alysha Hawkeye said:

Third branch Rumblebee is basically Super Sunflower spam without any minor Sunflower in between. As long as you have focus, you can deal the same damage of Overflow Sunflower for a long time.

 

What stops it become useful for now is that it requires Rosethorn on hit to trigger instant cast. The projectile must hit the target first. If your opponent block/counter/evade, then you cannot cast instant Rumblebee, and the distance have a role here too, since Rosethorn needs time to travel from Summoner to the target, explaining why it works better in melee distance.

 

This might be changed when the next balance note will fix Rosethorn from on hit to on use, meaning that whether we use Rosethorn, Rumblebee becomes instant cast regardless of the hit from projectile or the distance.

This, plus you need to be in constant movement. I can only use bees on bosses where i dont really need to pay much attention to mechanics since ping also plays a role. Atm i am better off with sunflower, even tho id love bees ;/

[Bits]

On 9/20/2016 at 2:37 AM, Alysha Hawkeye said:

Third branch Rumblebee is basically Super Sunflower spam without any minor Sunflower in between. As long as you have focus, you can deal the same damage of Overflow Sunflower for a long time.

 

What stops it become useful for now is that it requires Rosethorn on hit to trigger instant cast. The projectile must hit the target first. If your opponent block/counter/evade, then you cannot cast instant Rumblebee, and the distance have a role here too, since Rosethorn needs time to travel from Summoner to the target, explaining why it works better in melee distance.

 

This might be changed when the next balance note will fix Rosethorn from on hit to on use, meaning that whether we use Rosethorn, Rumblebee becomes instant cast regardless of the hit from projectile or the distance.

All of this is true, but while it is true, s3 bees WITH these current limitations you list is STILL significantly higher than sunflower in PvE single target. 

Yes, standing in melee and moving constantly is more difficult, but if you can do it, you'll deal much higher damage with s3 bees than with sunflower. Rosethorn working on hit rather than on use (which was changed in July KR patch) does not "stop it from being useful" right now, it just means you have to be close and move. It will be stronger when the skill changes come in, but that doesn't mean it's not higher damage now.

[Alysha Hawkeye]

On 9/25/2016 at 8:33 AM, Bits said:

All of this is true, but while it is true, s3 bees WITH these current limitations you list is STILL significantly higher than sunflower in PvE single target. 

Yes, standing in melee and moving constantly is more difficult, but if you can do it, you'll deal much higher damage with s3 bees than with sunflower. Rosethorn working on hit rather than on use (which was changed in July KR patch) does not "stop it from being useful" right now, it just means you have to be close and move. It will be stronger when the skill changes come in, but that doesn't mean it's not higher damage now.

 

For stronger in future, it will not. Its damage, if not yet been nerfed in our current patch, will get weaker, from 7.5x to 6.6x. Even the Rumbleebee damage buff from HM Seed Shroud get nerfed, unless you're soulburned.

 

More like easier and less risky to use as it disregards of distance with on-use Rosethorn. You still want to be in melee-range, though, cuz *ahem* HM Seed Shroud.

[Avalyn]

This thread just confirmed a lot of things about summoner demographics