Optimization for Wind Summoner for average and high ping players

[Gigowatt221]

Hi, the main problem of Wind Sum is the skills speed and the responsiveness of the game.

 

1. Skills speed is a human problem, because we have to use macro to properly do LMB+RMB over time. To do fast bees, you have to do fast Rosethorn / Butterfly Swarm (= LMB) before. It's just spamming as fast as possible while trying to do the rest of the DPS rotation (skill 1, 2, 3, F). The speed of Rosethorn / Butterfly Swarm is just crazy.

 

2. Game responsiveness is related to ping and, in a way, to FPS. For FPS, I've no miracle solution but for ping, the GCD auto bias can't help much because of the nature of LMB: switching between Rosethorn and Butterfly Swarm very fast breaks the GCD auto bias benefit and then the player with average and high ping is penalized and then the amount of Rumblebees Move 1 is reduced.

 

 

What I suggest to help average and high ping Wind Summoners is simple and, I think, is balanced (no improvement for low ping players or PvP):

A. Remove Butterfly Swarm skill and add the "+1 focus on critical hit" effect on the new LMB. Slow down the new LMB by 30% (= higher cooldown) and increase damage of the skill by 30%. So, basically, there is no damage or focus recovery nerf or boost for low ping players, but a boost for high ping, in part thanks to the GCD auto bias.

B. As Rumblebees Move 1 speed is related to LMB, there should be less per second for low ping players, so increase damage of Bees (by 30% ?? need tests), why not increased by Soulshield (BT, VT and TT) instead of raw damage as it should be a PvE skill?

C. Slow down Awakened Rumblebees by 15% and increase damage by 15%. Awakened Rumblebees are fast, too fast for average or high ping players. The GCD auto bias helps a lot but I think it is not enough. Plus, maybe slow down Rumblebees Move 3 by 15% and increase damage by 15% too to be in phase with Awakened Rumblebees, but this needs to be tested in arenas for PvP.

D. Adjust Glory, Invincible and Ancestral Soul Badges that reduce CD of Vine Whip when using Rumblebees Move 1 or Awakened Rumblebees when critical. For example, change 1 sec reduction to 1,3 sec (30%) and 2 sec to 2,3 seconds (15%).

 

 

So, basically, fusing Rosethorn with Butterfly Swarm, slowing down the speed of LMB/RMB skills and increasing their damages should help a lot for average and high ping Wind Summoners, without affecting the DPS of low ping players and without changing anything to Earth Summoners (the changes on LMB won't affect the Earth Summoner DPS rotation). Plus, it should help for the focus recovery problem that only average of high ping Wind Summoners encounter even with stuff.

 

Thank you for reading, share what you think about it ;)

[Grimoir]

the dumbest suggestion ever. rosethorn used to be dependable on the distance, and bees were dependant on rosethorn hit to be cast instantly, that was a huge issue for wind build and after they changed it so distance doesnt matter and bees are instant cast on use the buyilkd actually became viable. what you suggest would simp-ly ruin the entire build.

[Gigowatt221]

Il y a 8 heures, Grimoir a dit :

what you suggest would simp-ly ruin the entire build.

No. If you lower speed and increase damage proportionnally, you have the same result. But in this case, average and high players will be less penalized while low ping players won't have their DPS changed.

Il y a 8 heures, Grimoir a dit :

that was a huge issue for wind build and after they changed it so distance doesnt matter and bees are instant cast on use the buyilkd actually became viable.

So you didn't understand what you've read, plus it's a bit off topic as you bring it. "Normalized projectile" slowed down the speed of LMB/RMB but NCSoft didn't increase the damage to balance it. I suggest to slow down speed AND increase power. Now I understand why people say "nerf" when it's actually balancing or light boost when they barely understand the modifications.

 

Il y a 8 heures, Grimoir a dit :

the dumbest suggestion ever.

Try to use arguments and criticism next time ;)

 

Here some maths (everything has been tested):
Player A with 90 ms Ping on a dungeon Boss: 150 Rosethorn + Butterfly Swarm
Player B with 140 ms Ping on a dungeon Boss: 110 Rosethorn + Butterfly Swarm
Obviously the GCD auto bias didn't help. The GCD auto bias works better on repeating the same skill, but Rosethorn and Butterfly Swarm aren't same skill. We can verify this difference by disabling Butterfly Swarm in XML (don't do this, it's against rules and it's not allowed), only doing Rosethorn. The difference of amount of LMB between Player A and B would be reduced but still exists, meaning that the GCD auto bias has worked more effectively in this case. Of course don't disable Butterfly Swarm because you will have focus recovery issues by not profiting of the "+1 focus on crit" effect. That's why I suggest to remove Butterfly Swarm and add the focus recovery on crit effect on Rosethorn. This issue with GCD auto bias also explain why low ping players don't have much difference between Bees Move 1 and Move 3, when average and high ping players will suffer of a big slow down on Move 1 but not so much on Move 3.

[Grimoir]

15 hours ago, Gigowatt221 said:

No. If you lower speed and increase damage proportionnally, you have the same result. But in this case, average and high players will be less penalized while low ping players won't have their DPS changed.

So you didn't understand what you've read, plus it's a bit off topic as you bring it. "Normalized projectile" slowed down the speed of LMB/RMB but NCSoft didn't increase the damage to balance it. I suggest to slow down speed AND increase power. Now I understand why people say "nerf" when it's actually balancing or light boost when they barely understand the modifications.

 

Try to use arguments and criticism next time ;)

 

Here some maths (everything has been tested):
Player A with 90 ms Ping on a dungeon Boss: 150 Rosethorn + Butterfly Swarm
Player B with 140 ms Ping on a dungeon Boss: 110 Rosethorn + Butterfly Swarm
Obviously the GCD auto bias didn't help. The GCD auto bias works better on repeating the same skill, but Rosethorn and Butterfly Swarm aren't same skill. We can verify this difference by disabling Butterfly Swarm in XML (don't do this, it's against rules and it's not allowed), only doing Rosethorn. The difference of amount of LMB between Player A and B would be reduced but still exists, meaning that the GCD auto bias has worked more effectively in this case. Of course don't disable Butterfly Swarm because you will have focus recovery issues by not profiting of the "+1 focus on crit" effect. That's why I suggest to remove Butterfly Swarm and add the focus recovery on crit effect on Rosethorn. This issue with GCD auto bias also explain why low ping players don't have much difference between Bees Move 1 and Move 3, when average and high ping players will suffer of a big slow down on Move 1 but not so much on Move 3.

no summoner in their right mind, uses rosethorn for damage......rosethorn is simply used for 3 things:

1. focus recovery

2. Instant bees on cast

3. animation cancelling.

 

rosethorn speed is 1000000000000000000x better than 30% dmage on a skill that has no gear modifiers to boost it, that is not a part of your main dps source. the difference you describe is ping. it will always be the same way, always. with the gcd the gap is somewhat narrowed but it will always be a difference. This isnt rocket science. The 40 more rosethorns is completely insignificant to the dps, as the skill is not used as a dps source. What i mentioned by normalizing is before rosethorn was depooendant on your distance to the target. If you were far awayn it took longer for it to hit, if you were close the hit was almost instant. they normalized it by removing the distance to target bottleneck, so doesnt matetr where you stand, rosethorn projective hits the target at the same speed. this helped a lot in focus issues which summoners had.

 

also you seem to clearly not even know your skills....rosethorn already recovers 2 focus on a critical hit. the difference between low and high ping you see is the ping and the speed of animation cancelling. not the speed of rosethorn or bees, not focus recovery, not butterfly swarm.  Every successfull cast of rosethorn gives you a free bees, every successfull crit with rosethorn gives you 2 focus.

Also if i would see a wind summ using bees move 3 to dps in a dungeon i would literally kick them out of the party....cause that is simply killing your own dps. Move 3 is for PVP thats why it has such good focus recovery and extra damage on cced targets. but either way, in games like this ping determines your dmaage output like it many other games, doesnt matter how they change skills, a player with better ping will always have a more fluid rotation and in return higher dps than you.

[Gigowatt221]

If you reduce the amount of LMB per second, you reduce the amount of Bees Move 1 per second. If you reduce the amount of Bees per second, you reduce the benefit of Vine Whip CD reduction on bee (with some badges) that is very important for DPS (~50% of DPS). So even if LMB is only ~3% of DPS amount in term of raw damage, if the ping slows it down, it's ALL the Bees and Vine Whip DPS that will suffer. And that's exactly what happened to Player B: he did less Bees and less Vine Whip than Player A with same stuff because of LMB. SO everything is connected to Rosethorn / Butterfly Swarm speed. Go read the very first post because I'm repeating myself: the idea is to accept to slow down by 30% LMB AND increase LMB/RMB damages + the CD reduction of Vine Whip on badges by 30%, so the DPS is theorically not affected for good ping players but bad ping players would be less penalized. How this kind of improvement could be the dumbest suggestion ever?

 

PS: 

Rosethorn crit= 2 focus

Butterfly Swarm crit= 3 focus

It's not nothing on Wind spec when you need focus

[Grimoir]

11 hours ago, Gigowatt221 said:

If you reduce the amount of LMB per second, you reduce the amount of Bees Move 1 per second. If you reduce the amount of Bees per second, you reduce the benefit of Vine Whip CD reduction on bee (with some badges) that is very important for DPS (~50% of DPS). So even if LMB is only ~3% of DPS amount in term of raw damage, if the ping slows it down, it's ALL the Bees and Vine Whip DPS that will suffer. And that's exactly what happened to Player B: he did less Bees and less Vine Whip than Player A with same stuff because of LMB. SO everything is connected to Rosethorn / Butterfly Swarm speed. Go read the very first post because I'm repeating myself: the idea is to accept to slow down by 30% LMB AND increase LMB/RMB damages + the CD reduction of Vine Whip on badges by 30%, so the DPS is theorically not affected for good ping players but bad ping players would be less penalized. How this kind of improvement could be the dumbest suggestion ever?

 

PS: 

Rosethorn crit= 2 focus

Butterfly Swarm crit= 3 focus

It's not nothing on Wind spec when you need focus

i know what you suggested. Basically what you suggested is: Punish players with better ping because my isp is crap or i live too far away from the servers". Your ping is your problem not the games problem. If you have a high ping or that player has a high ping he should play earth summoner which is more high ping friendly and does more dps than wind.

 

Also Rosethorn and Butterfly Swarm are not your only sources of focus regen....

 

Just for laughs: what distance in meters do you keep from the target when you dps?

[Gigowatt221]

Ok I give up. You're just a troll.

[Grimoir]

17 hours ago, Gigowatt221 said:

Ok I give up. You're just a troll.

Not a troll. I have both Wind and earth accessories maxed and play both styles so i pretty much know what i am talking about compared to you who spits out pure nonesense.

[Gigowatt221]

And you have probably less than 100 ms ping, using a macro so you can't see there is a real problem on Wind summ.

[Grimoir]

22 hours ago, Gigowatt221 said:

And you have probably less than 100 ms ping, using a macro so you can't see there is a real problem on Wind summ.

My ping is 170-210. focus management is your issue not a game issue. also i do even more dps that summoners with much lower ping compared to mine with similar gear.

[Nhessa Luna]

Good evening, for some time I wanted to make this publication on the Wind damage of the summoner which is real and literally bad, I have noticed that summoner with ground equipment do a lot of DPS, this is my character (Nhessa li) can verify it in the BnS Tree, As you can see I own a decent team and even so I do not surpass the 200k of DPS since the wind DPs never increase by more hits RB and sequence that makes the DPs always low and low more, the disconcerting is to see a summoner earth with worse articles do more DPS, people when they see the wind team consider you a rookie, I have even pictures of people asking me why I became a wind summoner?

Really the wind element seems very comfortable but I am very disappointed with the balance of skills elements of the game for this same reason, I never see my DPS increase and I feel like I've wasted my time in nothing and no matter how much the team climbs I always keep a few mediocre 150k dps, I have become very discouraged and I have lost the desire to play for the same reason, it should be noted that I also have a Warden (exilin) which has a mediocre team and 150k dps very easily, instead to achieve 200k with the summoner having a much better team is very difficult and to top off the DMG every time it decreases more, I have many tests (photos) of the DPS's of people with the worst team surpassing my DPS, I am an experienced player, I play since it came out game in its CN version and really this adaptation of elemental skills especially in the summoner wind was the worst of all and I can be sure 100% that the summoner wind is the class with the peo r element of all, a long time ago passed the same with the FM and placed the skills x2 and stabilized, then happened with the Warlock Shadow which also had a very low DPs and stabilized. I hope you can solve this, measure yourselves to the summoner with earth and wind and you will notice a ridiculously abysmal difference ¬¬