earth or wind stronger?

[Miscaz]

hey ive been wondering if after the patch earth is still much stronger then wind? does anyone know?

[Ludicium]

Earth is still much stronger than wind, but, the gap has closed in slightly.

[Kiutee]

Care to explain why please?

I played around with both builds, following video tutorials, however came to the conclusion that wind is like...several times as strong as earth.

(Which i do however doubt, hence please explain why)

 

Several times-but not with anything from the video guides. With a build i never saw in a video but somehow came up during leveling myself using it before i went to check on such, as those in the (maybe outdated? Jan/Feb 2018) videos for both wind and earth use the LMB/RMB alternating "rotation".

Then again im just at Bale 10 with Xanos jewelry (for both), but i cant see much of a difference from the description of badges and higher tier staffs as they would seemingly enhance all 3 builds likewise.

 

No LMB/RMB rota- instead I use the projectile Rumblebees 3 and only take care to keep ivy up, so i essentially just keep my RMB pressed and dish out several bee swarms a second. As long as Ivy is up they are essentially focus free. (at least -2 +2 per hit, or even more + depending on debuffs already on the target). 

Sure RB3 are sometimes (without petals) like ~15% less in damage per hit compared to sunflowers, but more hits per second and you do not need the weaker LMB in between and you can move while (spasmodically twitching and) sending swarms over swarms to the boss. That alone is already higher in DPS.

Its a bit like having Photosynthesis up at all times and even then RB3 are without anything already faster than sunflowers on Photosynthesis.

Add petals and boom- the RB3 always insta cast insta cooldown shoot while moving rumblebees continuously hit as strong as a super sunflower. And without any gear supporting it petals is already up ~50% of the time. 50% of the time dishing out several super sunflowers a second? And even in between no need for the weaker LMB in like...ever? 2-3 times the damage compared to what i can get with Earth with a flawless LMB/RMB rota.

 

Need to keep ivy up? Just hit a skill, you dont even need to get your finger off your RMB. Maybe hit LMB every once in a while for the speed boost, as long as you keep the RMB down everything else overrides it.

And as long as ivy is up focus is of no concern at all too. Like you can not possibly run out, even though your focus bubbles look much like an equalizer bar dropping down and up again, again several times a second.

 

Needless to say just keeping your mouse button down is also boring to use, hence i began experimenting with other builds. Though on the upside it keeps you free to do mechanics and use your cat to full extend. 

 

[Ludicium]

53 minutes ago, Kiutee said:

Care to explain why please?

I played around with both builds, following video tutorials, however came to the conclusion that wind is like...several times as strong as earth.

(Which i do however doubt, hence please explain why)

 

Several times-but not with anything from the video guides. With a build i never saw in a video but somehow came up during leveling myself using it before i went to check on such, as those in the (maybe outdated? Jan/Feb 2018) videos for both wind and earth use the LMB/RMB alternating "rotation".

Then again im just at Bale 10 with Xanos jewelry (for both), but i cant see much of a difference from the description of badges and higher tier staffs as they would seemingly enhance all 3 builds likewise.

 

No LMB/RMB rota- instead I use the projectile Rumblebees 3 and only take care to keep ivy up, so i essentially just keep my RMB pressed and dish out several bee swarms a second. As long as Ivy is up they are essentially focus free. (at least -2 +2 per hit, or even more + depending on debuffs already on the target). 

Sure RB3 are sometimes (without petals) like ~15% less in damage per hit compared to sunflowers, but more hits per second and you do not need the weaker LMB in between and you can move while (spasmodically twitching and) sending swarms over swarms to the boss. That alone is already higher in DPS.

Its a bit like having Photosynthesis up at all times and even then RB3 are without anything already faster than sunflowers on Photosynthesis.

Add petals and boom- the RB3 always insta cast insta cooldown shoot while moving rumblebees continuously hit as strong as a super sunflower. And without any gear supporting it petals is already up ~50% of the time. 50% of the time dishing out several super sunflowers a second? And even in between no need for the weaker LMB in like...ever? 2-3 times the damage compared to what i can get with Earth with a flawless LMB/RMB rota.

 

Need to keep ivy up? Just hit a skill, you dont even need to get your finger off your RMB. Maybe hit LMB every once in a while for the speed boost, as long as you keep the RMB down everything else overrides it.

And as long as ivy is up focus is of no concern at all too. Like you can not possibly run out, even though your focus bubbles look much like an equalizer bar dropping down and up again, again several times a second.

 

Needless to say just keeping your mouse button down is also boring to use, hence i began experimenting with other builds. Though on the upside it keeps you free to do mechanics and use your cat to full extend. 

 

Ah, your playstyle and more importantly gear will explain why you think/feel that wind summoner is stronger than earth summoner.
Not saying that your playstyle is wrong - it's completely viable, but you would want to spec back into RumbleBees Move 1 as you start to upgrade/get better gear as RumbleBees M1 will outshine/out-DPS RumbleBees M3. It might not seem like much now with your gear, but eventually (and if you do make the skill swap), you'll notice the slight differences.

 

As for why you feel that wind summoner is stronger than earth, it's because with your current gear (Bale 10 w/ Xanos Jewelry), that will be and is the case. Wind summoner is stronger than earth summoner pre-VT gear (even with BT gear, wind summoners will/may pull-ahead, but the gap in terms of DPS isn't as big/far when comparing it with MSP-geared earth & wind summoner). 
Earth summoners are stronger than wind summoners with VT-gear. With that being said though, there's absolutely nothing wrong with playing wind summoner - I myself choose to stick with wind instead of earth as well.

[Amagam]

vor 4 Stunden schrieb Kiutee:

Care to explain why please?

I played around with both builds, following video tutorials, however came to the conclusion that wind is like...several times as strong as earth.

(Which i do however doubt, hence please explain why)

 

Several times-but not with anything from the video guides. With a build i never saw in a video but somehow came up during leveling myself using it before i went to check on such, as those in the (maybe outdated? Jan/Feb 2018) videos for both wind and earth use the LMB/RMB alternating "rotation".

Then again im just at Bale 10 with Xanos jewelry (for both), but i cant see much of a difference from the description of badges and higher tier staffs as they would seemingly enhance all 3 builds likewise.

 

No LMB/RMB rota- instead I use the projectile Rumblebees 3 and only take care to keep ivy up, so i essentially just keep my RMB pressed and dish out several bee swarms a second. As long as Ivy is up they are essentially focus free. (at least -2 +2 per hit, or even more + depending on debuffs already on the target). 

Sure RB3 are sometimes (without petals) like ~15% less in damage per hit compared to sunflowers, but more hits per second and you do not need the weaker LMB in between and you can move while (spasmodically twitching and) sending swarms over swarms to the boss. That alone is already higher in DPS.

Its a bit like having Photosynthesis up at all times and even then RB3 are without anything already faster than sunflowers on Photosynthesis.

Add petals and boom- the RB3 always insta cast insta cooldown shoot while moving rumblebees continuously hit as strong as a super sunflower. And without any gear supporting it petals is already up ~50% of the time. 50% of the time dishing out several super sunflowers a second? And even in between no need for the weaker LMB in like...ever? 2-3 times the damage compared to what i can get with Earth with a flawless LMB/RMB rota.

 

Need to keep ivy up? Just hit a skill, you dont even need to get your finger off your RMB. Maybe hit LMB every once in a while for the speed boost, as long as you keep the RMB down everything else overrides it.

And as long as ivy is up focus is of no concern at all too. Like you can not possibly run out, even though your focus bubbles look much like an equalizer bar dropping down and up again, again several times a second.

 

Needless to say just keeping your mouse button down is also boring to use, hence i began experimenting with other builds. Though on the upside it keeps you free to do mechanics and use your cat to full extend. 

 

I also play atm the same build with Bees 3 but in the end ull notice that the farther u get with gear etc. the more Bees 1 will get a boost while Bee 3 is sitting empty handed around, for example the Sould Badge only enhances Bee Move 1 :D

[Kiutee]

9 hours ago, Ludicium said:

Ah, your playstyle and more importantly gear will explain why you think/feel that wind summoner is stronger than earth summoner.
Not saying that your playstyle is wrong - it's completely viable, but you would want to spec back into RumbleBees Move 1 as you start to upgrade/get better gear as RumbleBees M1 will outshine/out-DPS RumbleBees M3. 

Rumblebees 1 /sunflowers is actually my one and only Advanced Tech skill yet, another reason i went checking it out ;)

Still RB1 doesnt come anywhere even remotely close to RB3 thanks to forced LMB.

And without any "super" version and without the petal addon damage its indeed also way inferior to sunflowers. 

 

RB3 however is also affected by most equip just as well. 

The only thing that is RB1 exclusive that i could find is the attack boost for the first few seconds of petal storm from the soul badge. That could...let RB1 catch up with sunflower i guess? Possibly not completely as RB1 also still lacks the "super" version.

All other effects are listed to work for all bee's. 

I would think that should stay like that? Well, unless thats yet another case of descriptions not portraying the actual current state of the game like for some other classes gear atm. 

 

I was even playing with the thought of going for a vine whip cooldown reduction gear setup. Given the insanely fast speed of RB3 that would make this hard hitting all in wonder be up like every other moment, several times during a single petal possibly? Make that a petal with tornado flower and...well... The rotation would no longer exclusively consist of keep RMB pressed and ivy up? :D

9 hours ago, Ludicium said:

 It might not seem like much now with your gear,

It does. Like i wrote, a good 2-3 times as much damage. But the other way around. RB3 dishes out a magnitude of sunflowers. And even more compared to RB1, and thats with them being buffed already.

 

TLDR: I can see how RB1 is (vastly) inferior to sunflowers and then catches up a bit with the soul badge, potentially without ever catching it. All guides i watched and most comments i read seem to portrait that exact comparison, this exact effect, but they also compare sunflowers and RB1. Sounds fitting.

However i can still not see RB1 getting anywhere close to a proper RB3, which given the information on gear i would guess to scale at least just exactly like sunflower, or even better given the petal/tornado flower/ RB3 synergy. Hence keeping ahead. So my question is what exactly makes sunflower catch up with RB3 in the long run? Or RB3 drop even behind RB1? 

[Ludicium]

1 hour ago, Kiutee said:

[Reduced for easier reading]

TLDR: I can see how RB1 is (vastly) inferior to sunflowers and then catches up a bit with the soul badge, potentially without ever catching it. All guides i watched and most comments i read seem to portrait that exact comparison, this exact effect, but they also compare sunflowers and RB1. Sounds fitting.

However i can still not see RB1 getting anywhere close to a proper RB3, which given the information on gear i would guess to scale at least just exactly like sunflower, or even better given the petal/tornado flower/ RB3 synergy. Hence keeping ahead. So my question is what exactly makes sunflower catch up with RB3 in the long run? Or RB3 drop even behind RB1? 

If possible, I'd like to see your gear =)
But, that aside, RB1 beats Sunflowers/Earth summoners pre-VT (albeit with focus issues :S), like I said.

I am not sure how it will compare to your RB3 as I have not tested it out myself, so even a parse would be lovely until then, I'll take your word for it and say that RB3 is stronger than RB1 and sunflower (pre & post VT). 

 

[From here on, all answers are with both earth and wind summoners equipped with max VT gear]
As for why sunflowers will become stronger than RB1, it's due to it's sustained damage (~2 minutes or more fights) and it's healing potential (from thorn strike).

Wind summoner will still have higher burst damage than earth summoner but not higher sustained - so earth will eventually pull ahead. 
In what makes earth pull ahead, undying soul badge, and dynasty mystic badge that earth summoners gains access to, that will allow them to pull ahead in DPS (or if you want to get specific, sustained DPS - sorry if I wasn't clear on this, sorta assumed it was implied).

[Magnyus]

I decided to have a go at this conversation because it was making me cringe. I took off all of my gear and equipped my old BT soul shields and used a broken Training Staff. I did the test on Fujin with a partner because he barely moves, and I wasn't about to spend 3 hours fighting longgui or 3 days fighting moyun.

 

https://imgur.com/IVuUlC4 This first image is move 3 bees.

 

https://imgur.com/o1BMNSB Second image is move 1 bees, manually clicking lmb rmb. I managed to save 2 seconds.

 

https://imgur.com/VCVPM1o Last image is a proper anicancel on lmb rmb. Shaved 12 seconds off the time.

 

I can understand why people think that RB3 might be the better of the two skills, because it costs very little focus, hits multiple times per second and does more damage when Petal Toss is up. But you fail to realise that Petal Toss applies a 500% AP bonus ONLY to RB1. On top of that, Rosethorn (LMB) allows you to insta-cast Rumblebees immediately after it, paired with RB1, with proper lmb rmb rotation move 1 bees attacks significantly faster than if your were just holding RMB with RB3. And it's getting buffed by Petal Toss on top of that the additional damage RB3 gets from attack targets inflicted by Petal Toss pales in comparison to the modifiers on RB1.

 

This gets even worse after VT gear, since the Aransu mystic badge puts a focus on Vine Whip, you need to incorporate CDR on Vine Whip, the only CDR Wind has built into their kit for Vine Whip is Awakened Rumblebees (3 seconds per crit). Before fuse badge the BiS Soul Badge is Courage, because the bulk of your damage is Rumblebees, so you need to buff it as much as possible. Courage gets fused with Glory badge after getting the mystic badge because it provides wind with the passive ability to reduce the cooldown of Vine Whip. RB3 becomes even more useless after this point because your badge wouldn't even be doing anything.

 

I've played Sum since a little before Silverfrost came out and there has never been a point where RB3 outdid RB1, at all gear levels. The biggest issue most people have with it at earlier gear levels is the focus consumption, in which I tell them to learn to manage their focus or suffer doing less damage with RB3. As far as playstyles go, there shouldn't be a difference in how you play with either skill, it's just a matter of rotation.

[Ludicium]

12 minutes ago, Magnyus said:

I decided to have a go at this conversation because it was making me cringe. I took off all of my gear and equipped my old BT soul shields and used a broken Training Staff. I did the test on Fujin with a partner because he barely moves, and I wasn't about to spend 3 hours fighting longgui or 3 days fighting moyun.

 

https://imgur.com/IVuUlC4 This first image is move 3 bees.

 

https://imgur.com/o1BMNSB Second image is move 1 bees, manually clicking lmb rmb. I managed to save 2 seconds.

 

https://imgur.com/VCVPM1o Last image is a proper anicancel on lmb rmb. Shaved 12 seconds off the time.

 

I can understand why people think that RB3 might be the better of the two skills, because it costs very little focus, hits multiple times per second and does more damage when Petal Toss is up. But you fail to realise that Petal Toss applies a 500% AP bonus ONLY to RB1. On top of that, Rosethorn (LMB) allows you to insta-cast Rumblebees immediately after it, paired with RB1, with proper lmb rmb rotation move 1 bees attacks significantly faster than if your were just holding RMB with RB3. And it's getting buffed by Petal Toss on top of that the additional damage RB3 gets from attack targets inflicted by Petal Toss pales in comparison to the modifiers on RB1.

 

This gets even worse after VT gear, since the Aransu mystic badge puts a focus on Vine Whip, you need to incorporate CDR on Vine Whip, the only CDR Wind has built into their kit for Vine Whip is Awakened Rumblebees (3 seconds per crit). Before fuse badge the BiS Soul Badge is Courage, because the bulk of your damage is Rumblebees, so you need to buff it as much as possible. Courage gets fused with Glory badge after getting the mystic badge because it provides wind with the passive ability to reduce the cooldown of Vine Whip. RB3 becomes even more useless after this point because your badge wouldn't even be doing anything.

 

I've played Sum since a little before Silverfrost came out and there has never been a point where RB3 outdid RB1, at all gear levels. The biggest issue most people have with it at earlier gear levels is the focus consumption, in which I tell them to learn to manage their focus or suffer doing less damage with RB3. As far as playstyles go, there shouldn't be a difference in how you play with either skill, it's just a matter of rotation.

OMG, thank you for taking the time to test it out then XD

I, in that case, shall retract my previous statement regarding me taking @Kiutee's words as true (not that I myself personally agreed with him/her, I just didn't want to start an argument). But yeah, it is what I expected/knew, with all of that being said though, I still stand by my suggestion to Kiutee, in that they should slowly move towards RB1. 

Hope this helps OP and Kiutee ^^