Do you really intend to alienate your paying base?

[Troubling Rain]

I really don't mind the XML changes that rebind simple mode, or rebind skills to different buttons, that should be an option ingame, and the fact that it isn't is kinda bad. Let me give you an example:

 

1> play bm

2> you aren't the main tank in the raid

3> mechanic comes, you need to hongmoon block

4> press 1 twice by accident and activate your war cry

5> your hmb disappears from F so you miss it

6> oh also you stole aggro from the MT and the boss is now cleaving the party

 

or for the people that say "just disable war cry", you are the MT and just discard lines 2 and 6

 

OR just allow me to move the skill to a different button jeez.

 

As for the other part of the story. CHEAT ENGINE. Cmon guys, are you really okay with playing the game with cheat engine, bypassing every mechanic known to man. Like for example the TC HM Cheat Engine solo farming. At that point you might as well just ask NCSOFT to put the loot in your inventory automatically every 3-5 minutes (idk how long it takes to do with CE), you really fine with that?

[GenericNick]

9 hours ago, FeuchterLyn said:

I am not even talking about this. I am completly talking about skill rebinds. Everything else of course is simply a cheat.

 

I dont mind getting banned for this so i write what i use: Anima to RMB and V to RMB plus a macro for Z. Its simply not possible to perfectly press Z and Leftmouse button at the correct times cause there is an input delay if you have it manually. I tryed and i played like this for a long time. My result was that i lose on average 30% dmg from manually pressing everything.

Noone would mind having functional skill rebinds in this game. But you can't fool yourself that it's the reason people are xmling. You're talking about rebinding skills yet 99% of SFs i see ingame magically forgot how to kick.

[luzt]

8 hours ago, Troubling Rain said:

Like for example the TC HM Cheat Engine solo farming. At that point you might as well just ask NCSOFT to put the loot in your inventory automatically every 3-5 minutes (idk how long it takes to do with CE), you really fine with that?

After running it 300 times, yes.

The fun is already gone after the 100th run (probably earlier)

Now they made pink scale farming around 40% slower

[Lazypen]

I've done over 1k runs in tc in hard mode and still dont have enough pink scales. Let that sink in. For how much time I wasted in that ❤ ❤ ❤ ❤ ass dungeon and still not enough scales is ridiculous.

[Lazypen]

So yes I'm fine with them handing me free scales, give me time to do other ❤ ❤ ❤ ❤.

[FeuchterLyn]

10 hours ago, GenericNick said:

Noone would mind having functional skill rebinds in this game. But you can't fool yourself that it's the reason people are xmling. You're talking about rebinding skills yet 99% of SFs i see ingame magically forgot how to kick.

We still have to differenciate thoose two but i doubts an anti cheat could do so which is the problem for me.

 

If they actully follow through they simply ban everyone trying to play the game. My whole point is we dont need an anti cheat system we need a company actully listening to reports which is sadly not the case. Also an anti cheat would be super easy to create like "if winm.dll exists" then dont launch.

 

Have you ever tryed to report someone and send vid proof ? i did and i used Youtube for this so i can see the view counter. Several weeks after it was still at 0 (private vid).

[ProphetJones]

The amount of players who can't play their class without an XML edit is huge and as we saw with the UE4 update before they updated the "cheat" engines, that lack of skill is a detriment to the game.

 

GCD edits are people min/maxing and those DPS whiners are a non-issue and should be banned IMHO.

 

That said, NCSOFT really should introduce some sort of limited XML editor for SimpleMode  because whoever programs simple clearly does not play the class. The Shifting Blades simple mode is terribad for no good reason yet Lotus is almost perfect. How to explain that discrepancy when it is clear to the community how to fix Simple for Shifting???

Edited September 21, 2021 by ProphetJones

[youzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz]

Good riddance to the cheaters

[Minimihi]

49 minutes ago, youzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz said:

Good riddance to the cheaters

When anti-cheat is released remember that you wrote this

[Ketsueki Tenshi]

If Master Hong would be real, they all be kicked out of the Hongmoon school.

The game is about mastering your class and skills.

And not let the game auto play for you with xml and macro.

What are you? Masters of the Hongmoon School or mindless cheaters who act like drones and bots?

 

It's also annoying when those people have the biggest egos, even tho they should feel ashamed of themselfs.

Simple mode is not perfect on purpose and by design, it's just a rhough imperfect guideline.

It's so that people who actually master there gameplay get rewarded and not semi auto play.

Sadly most use macro and xml, or moded simple mode, and think they pros.

[Grimoir]

5 hours ago, Minimihi said:

New/returning players are done with game anyways.

Being done with CTA event they are all are locked behind being unable to do Normal Modes to upgrade CTA gear. Geared players do not accept them. No-one joining when recruiting. NM LFP is dead.

Add anti-cheat, merge EU and NA servers, move them to Antarctica nobody will care anyways. 

NM LFP is dead because it is completely not worth wasting time in there. Just do easy mode for dailies and done. You can no longer effectively farm the dungeons, and new accessories are only dropping from hard modes.

[FeuchterLyn]

6 hours ago, Grimoir said:

NM LFP is dead because it is completely not worth wasting time in there.

Ah i see so i can do Hardmodes with full Elder Scale stuff ? i doubt that to be honest considering Normal Mode attacks nearly one shot me after i finished cta and yes i am experienced in the mechs i evade everything possible but there are attacks not possible to evade even with iframe. Normal mode gives IA SS and Agressor aka Noctual Scale stuff whcih is definetly needed for new/cta players.

Quote

Just do easy mode for dailies and done.

How do i gear up then ? There is no other way to get past Elder Scale gear which if you dont do IA maybe like 4-6 Million dmg of course if you know how to play your class well what newish players usually dont.

Quote

You can no longer effectively farm the dungeons, and new accessories are only dropping from hard modes.

Well majority of players would be happy enough having like IA stage 10 stuff and you already talk about the new accesories being the only thing worthwhile.

 

Back to topic: can someone please explain to me what you expect from an anti cheat that can litterly bypassed by deleting its files from the gamefolder ?

Edited September 22, 2021 by FeuchterLyn

[Grimoir]

1 hour ago, FeuchterLyn said:

Ah i see so i can do Hardmodes with full Elder Scale stuff ? i doubt that to be honest considering Normal Mode attacks nearly one shot me after i finished cta and yes i am experienced in the mechs i evade everything possible but there are attacks not possible to evade even with iframe. Normal mode gives IA SS and Agressor aka Noctual Scale stuff whcih is definetly needed for new/cta players.

 

The way loot works currently is just completely f... up. There is no way to effectively farm for upgrades. You can drop the accessories from normal mode, but what real upgrade would it be if you cannot get the scales to upgrade them to a usable level? While yes, its needed for new players, but at the same time they are essentially more or less "useless"untill they get scales to upgrade, which is nearly impossible.

 

1 hour ago, FeuchterLyn said:

How do i gear up then ? There is no other way to get past Elder Scale gear which if you dont do IA maybe like 4-6 Million dmg of course if you know how to play your class well what newish players usually dont

 

Just like the answer above. The only way to get onyx scales right now seems to just be the chest from kagcha, and farming mushin tower. All scales after that are horrible to farm and get from normal / easy modes. And you cant do hard modes if you dont get the scales to upgrade the gear.

 

1 hour ago, FeuchterLyn said:

Back to topic: can someone please explain to me what you expect from an anti cheat that can litterly bypassed by deleting its files from the gamefolder ?

 

It kinda depends. If its a anticheat with a heartbeat, simply deleting files will not do anything as the game will not even let you in. 

I think it will take 2 things:

1. A decent anti cheat

2. Development work to fix / block the parts players are editing. they had a chance to do it directly with ue4, but they didnt take it.

[FeuchterLyn]

2 hours ago, Grimoir said:

You can drop the accessories from normal mode, but what real upgrade would it be if you cannot get the scales to upgrade them to a usable level?

While the ammount of scales got heavily reduced its not like they are not existing. Also Stage 3 Agressor stuff is already better than stage 10 Elder scale stuff so why is it useless ?

2 hours ago, Grimoir said:

And you cant do hard modes if you dont get the scales to upgrade the gear.

Lets just say hardmode is a mode for people with endgame gear which is not the case till you have atleast everything normal mode offers. You confuse me thou. On one hand you sound like you think no one should do normal mode at all cause its useless but on the other hand you write its needed for the gear. So what now ?

2 hours ago, Grimoir said:

It kinda depends. If its a anticheat with a heartbeat, simply deleting files will not do anything as the game will not even let you in. 

Of course it was sarcasmn. We have heartbeat + xigncode in KR but sadly XML and everything else expect for Cheatengine is still possible there. We have one difference thou KR is actully banning people for cheating. One example we had people do the event turtule and a gunner used GCD which got him perma banned.

2 hours ago, Grimoir said:

I think it will take 2 things:

1. A decent anti cheat

Its not like i dont want an anti cheat system i just dont see the use for it if it cant prevent people from cheating and NCsoft dosent change their mindset. I mean who is actully thinking we gonna get something new ? xigncode and gameguard has been bypassed years ago.

2 hours ago, Grimoir said:

2. Development work to fix / block the parts players are editing. they had a chance to do it directly with ue4, but they didnt take it.

From the past we can somewhat tell what kind of data they have avaible when looking into a player and i can assure you they have everything needed to find cheaters who changed their skills. Knowing nothing happens it just deepens my assumption that they dont want to punish cheaters.

[Laura099]

Honestly I wouldn't mind anti-cheat if not for three things in NCs history.
First is the ban-waves of 2017 and 2019. New players obviously won't remember this, but in 2017 a corrupted file was put out alongside a new "bot" meant to ban anyone that was caught by anti-cheat.
Now since anti-cheat looks for incorrect or "edited" files - yeah you can guess what happened next. Half my Skybreak raid was banned, and so were others, despite having unmodded clients.
In 2019, we had the demon xml edit. This edit made it so that players could use demon skills outside of Scalet Conservatory and whilst not being a demon, killing people constantly over and over. What happened? The second set of demons in Scarlet Conservatory was banned, so raids were cancelled for quite a while. Were the xml editors banned? Not many tbh...
2019 does get the benefit of the doubt in that I believe anti-cheat was gone by then. I could be wrong.
The second issue anti-cheat so rarely works out how it's intended. It is so easy to bypass if you know what you're doing, which will just make the difference between xml editors and vanilla players even greater. Of course, this isn't really a repercussion of anti-cheat itself, but this is a likely result.
The third issue is simply this - ever since anti-cheat was removed, one of the biggest "cheats" people used were removing effects. Why? Because wings had effects, arms had effect, legs had effects, weapons had effect, paper had effects, air had effects, breathing had effects, existing had a dozen effects, effects had effects. And NC clearly does not deal with this properly. UE4 made it somewhat better but....eventually people are gonna want to remove those effects again and will be greeted with such...and a removed account.

[SmokeSauce]

Firstly after reading this whole thread, I can understand that both sides of this debate has some good points that need to be addressed by NCSOFT. However from personal experience from this game and others, unfortunately I'm going to have to side more towards being against an anti-cheat in this game.

 

Here's why...

1) I used to be a player of a popular Korean-developed 1st person shooter game called Alliance of Valiant Arms which got published to EU/NA region just like BnS has (sadly the game got shut down in July 2019 due to licensing issues, but is in the process of redevelopment and is soon to be re-released). You maybe thinking how is this relevant? Well let me tell you. This game used to use XIGNCODE3 as it's anti-cheat, that was one of the major flaws for it. It would ban random players for the dumbest sh*t, and over half of the bans or account flags that it gave to players were false-positives. Did it stop cheaters? No, absolutely not... It was getting a higher percentage of 100% legitimate players banned from the game than actual cheaters, any cheater with half a brain was able to bypass it as there were loads of individual coders with separate bypassing and cheat methods for the game, making it almost undetectable. My biggest worry and concern is the same happening to Blade and Soul, where it is mostly innocent players being caught in the crossfire of this with a shoddy anti-cheat being to blame. Also with how this anti-cheat worked it would ban players through the anti-cheat itself, not through the publisher, meaning if someone did get banned they would have to appeal it to XIGNCODE3 instead of the game's support team, which the XIGNCODE3 team never responded to tickets for, meaning all those innocent players who did get caught in this trap never got to play on their accounts again. Saying this, it wasn't totally impossible to "unban yourself", since at the time it would either IP-Ban or HWID-Ban a user, both of which an individual who knows what they are doing can essentially change their system files, to make it look like they are playing from a different machine or from a different IP, rendering this banning method useless for actual cheating players (again harming innocent players). If they are to actually add an anti-cheat system, it needs to have NCWEST in FULL CONTROL of it and understand the difference between what is malicious and what isn't, so even if there are false-positives, it can be looked into by the support team here and dealt with accordingly.

 

2) Most of the edits to the game files that the community are using is for Quality of Life purposes which has previously been stated clearly earlier in this thread in which should be added to the game itself as features/options that can be toggled on/off in the game by a player at anytime they wish. Let me give you a few examples of Quality of Life edits which makes this game so much nicer to play, which does not alter the gameplay or give an individual a particular "advantage":

-World Lighting Removal (This made it easier to see boss attacks, such as the red/purple/yellow markers on the floor, currently without it, it can be very difficult to see this on any current in-game graphics setting, especially in certain areas of the game)

-Less Loading Screens (Most of the time the loading screens are pointless and is ultimately time-wasting, this basically helps a player be able to actually play the game instead of being forced to watch a stuck screen while everyone else with faster pc's are already clearing a dungeon being impatient to wait for your butt to load in)

-Cutscene Removal (I understand that a lot of effort went into making these cutscenes, but my strong belief is that after a character has viewed this cutscene atleast once, they should be allowed to have an option within the settings to permanently skip the cutscenes from triggering, as again this wastes a lot of time and can be annoying, sometimes killing a player if they are gliding/jumping over a spot where you can fall to your death is a cutscene triggers by another player at that exact moment, such as in Cathedra Cliffs or Shadowmoor)

-Skill Rebinding/Relayering/Simple Mode edits (I understand this can be considered "controversial" depending on the desired outcome, but honestly despite the negative points against this, I still think the positives of having this as a feature in the game outweighs the downsides to them. This adds a lot of playability to a great deal of classes and specs, especially when "simple mode" is tuned a lot better on some classes/specs than others, so allowing this gives a player freedom to decide what they want it to do, putting everyone on a more even playing field, fairer overall. Those of you who just say "learn your class" over being able to rebind/relayer/edit simple mode is simply not a good enough argument in my opinion. Why? In certain situations FPS can be really low and can be difficult to trigger skills properly to get cooldowns from gear to proc correctly/do proper rotations, not only making someone with a worse pc/connection at a major disadvantage, but completely making their class/spec unplayable; this is more noticeable on Soul Fighter and Assassin from personal experience. Whereas with the ability to use Simple Mode and edits to what skill goes where on your keyboard, it counteracts this, allowing someone with a worse pc to do just as well as someone with an expensive high-end pc.)
-Instant box opening/transmutes (Honestly without this, the game feels sluggish and can be annoying to sit there for AGES, just for completely pointless countdown timers to trigger something that can be done right away. If the ability to use this gets taken away, I personally would feel very annoyed as this has to be one of the biggest QoL improvement that the game needs.)
-DPS Meter - So you can see top 3 DPS in your party in a dungeon/top 6 DPS in raids (I personally love this and cannot understand why it is currently limited by default to just your own DPS... It's nice to be able to see what other players you are playing with are capable of doing so you can use it to improve your own gameplay)

-There are more that I can cover but the ones listed above I would consider to be actual proper Quality of Life changes that should be added to the game by default without the need of modifying game files to do so.

 

3) At the end of the day, I believe that when it comes to the use of "modified game files" such as addons/XMLs etc, it should be used with common sense. By this I mean, to use it purely for improving the quality of the game itself and NOT using it to abuse in PvP/Leaderboard content. I'm personally all-for people being able to use these 3rd party tools as long as it's not used to gain a significant advantage over another player that is playing without them, such as for ranking rewards on leaderboards or in PvP/Clan Battles for example.

So yeah, my point still stands, common sense and courtesy to other players in a "competitive environment" is important above all else. They only become a major problem when it is used in such a manner. 

 

TL;DR

-Anti-Cheat needs to only be a thing if NCWEST is in full control of it and can understand the difference between malicious intent and simple QoL changes etc.
-XIGNCODE3 is known to cause false-positive cases, catching out and banning far more innocent players than actual cheaters.

-QoL 3rd Party tools should be added to the game by default as features without the need to modify the game files.

-Common sense and courtesy is important... do not use cheats/3rd party assistance against other players for personal gain such as ranking rewards on leaderboards or in PvP aspects of the game.

[hdm]

We can live without qol addons. I do use them aswell, to open boxes faster, transmute faster, etc, and I have also played without them and its NOT the end of the world, stop ❤ ❤ ❤ ❤ crying and using silly excuses, whoever quits because of such an irrelevant thing really must have his head pretty much empty.

[hdm]

Plus the solution isn't to allow everything, like jetpack, cheat engine, gcd, and overall xmls that increase dps removing hits on a skill and stuff like that.

 

If letting qol addons exist would let all that stuff be possible aswell, then fuk qol, be realistic guys.

I also agree that these qol features should be added in the game by the devs themselves ofc, but good luck with that.

Edited September 26, 2021 by stahp

[GenericNick]

On 9/25/2021 at 2:51 PM, SmokeSauce said:

 

-Common sense and courtesy is important... do not use cheats/3rd party assistance against other players for personal gain such as ranking rewards on leaderboards or in PvP aspects of the game.

aaaaand whatever you wrote above this statement becomes null and void.

 

[Raiya]

All I'll say is that when it comes to anti cheats they're wortheless if they're something like Gameguard or Xigncode simply because anything that is tied to the client WILL be neutered by those who are cheating to begin with. That's what makes this an issue. In the end this software also tends to cause problems on end users, as an example people who are using windows 11 can't play PSO2 atm because gameguard crashes the client the moment it's booted up. 

 

The only useful anti cheats that could possible work are those that are based on the server end, it just doesn't work otherwise and ends up causing issues until they end up uninstalling the software again.