P2W Is okay and game is still fun!

[Daliah]

Why do ppl think it's p2w that ruins the fun? Like maybe you guys just love to complain 
And just being jealous of others that can p2w if they want and like it while all you do is continue to complain
And that part ruins the fun for you and possibly others that are having fun for now in the process 

Now a simple look into a reversed situation of p2w 
Investors that make it possible to make these games would be you guys that hate p2w in games
And the players complaining want the game to be p2w to make it "fair" as in not forever stuck behind "everyone else" because (insert reason)
In this situation i have a question for you the investors of the game.
Do you honestly think you'd listen to that player/s and change the game to be p2w?

And so all of that makes me think it's just love for complaining despite the chance use that effort to be the one
To make what you want a reality and have fun ^^

Also do you think that only the people that make stuff and make it available for others to make profit are the only ones greedy?
Wanting something but not wanting to pay the price for it fully or at all. Is being just as greedy
But be my guest here and twist everything the way you like to.

And the last thing i want to add. All of you are wonderful ^^ Even if the struggle to accept one another continues xD

[Killifishy]

The reason a pay-to-win game model is bad is because it is not a good long-term business model. Many of the pay-to-win games from KR struggle to survive on western markets because fewer people are willing to waste money to progress with pixel items. Then when they find themselves unable to compete with people that drop their paychecks on the game, they lose interest and leave.

The population in this game has gone steadily down as it has become increasingly pay-to-win over the years. I hear a lot of people acknowledge they enjoy the base game, but hate the company that runs it because it has gotten to the point where you either drop massive amounts of money on the game to stay relevant or grind until you are numb. Even with UE4 at our doorstep I know many people that have little interest in continuing to grind. 

Having a few people willing to drop massive amounts of money every month may keep the servers up for now, but this game could be thriving if it catered to a broader audience that was willing to spend a reasonable amount on the game for cosmetics or a worthwhile premium subscription. Both of these facets are ignored, one with an almost non-existent rotation of content and the other being incredibly outdated and nearly worthless. 

The people that are willing to spend massive amounts of money are not necessarily the ones that ruin the game for others so much as the pressure the company puts on the player base to spend money. They make progression increasingly time consuming while dangling the easier method on a golden stick. Just swipe and you can save hours of mind-numbing grind. It's what has been slowly turning myself and the people I enjoy the game with away from the game. 

There are a lot of reasons games like FFXIV have, on a single server, more players than EU and NA combined, and they have ~20 servers for NA alone. The fact they are NOT p2w is probably high on the list. 

[Daliah]

Well i found the answer thanks to you Killifishy.

There are simply too many expectations from people.
Like removing p2w and the game would be "successful" and filled with people and so on.
And now the part where all of it fails. Just because 1 or all players have expectations from those that are in
control of direction the game goes doesn't mean that anything will actually change the way you want.
Even if it's the better path long term or w/e you wanna add as reason. It's like telling someone
what to do and expecting that they will listen just because you think it's right or better or more fun.
But it's their own choice to listen and do it or completely ignore all of it. 

[Killifishy]

I mean, the current state of the game speaks volumes for how well the chosen path is going for BNS. I'm just trying to point out other strategies work and the downward spiral BNS has been on speaks for itself.

I'll throw this here for shits and grins if you want an idea of how well other strategies can work. Obviously it's impossible to make an apples to apples comparison, but take compare the active player base or look at the 5 year trend for BNS and it sums up the state of the game. 
https://mmo-population.com/r/bladeandsoul
https://www.gamepur.com/guides/final-fantasy-xiv-server-populations

edited for clarity.
 

Edited September 7, 2021 by Killifishy

[Daliah]

Honestly if having high player count and no p2w is so awesome and so much better. I wonder why continue
any other game since even if they are fun and all(core content). They are dead and p2w and that's not fun cause obviously
it's not fair to have someone(ME) left behind everyone else cause of situations being different for each of us.
And yeah then continue to spread why p2w is so awful and ruins everything that is fun. Sounds like a wonderful
path chosen as well. I wonder if doing that for years and waiting even now for a change to happen regarding p2w
is addicting or something?

[Uldrum]

23 hours ago, Killifishy said:

but hate the company that runs it because it has gotten to the point where you either drop massive amounts of money on the game to stay relevant or grind until you are numb. Even with UE4 at our doorstep I know many people that have little interest in continuing to grind. 

 

The thing is, Blade and soul was never meant as a drop in / drop out or "Start late" game, If you've been here since 2016 and stuck with the game for all those years, then the grind is not that bad, as you do the grind when it's current, then move on to the next grind when that content drops.

 

But the people who start late or take breaks, will have several content patches of stuff to grind.

 

It's not the devs fault that the player base choose to slack.

 

P2W is there as a crutch for people that want to catch up faster, but it was never "needed" if you just stuck with the grind from the start.

[matthew]

It ruins the fun because the game gets balanced around the highest tier items. Segmentation of the playerbase is not a good idea when you're trying to build a multiplayer game.

 

It also means content becomes too easy for groups of whales. Which fuels complaints of "game too easy". While non whales complain "too grindy".

[Daliah]

Okay. So let's assume p2w is gone. But bns or any mmo still has grind for gear and more stuff you can grind.
Time gated content remains daily/weekly and in game rng for upgrades/loot. And the players that are playing
will be so happy about all of that cause yeah no p2w. Then few years later like now new player still try
to start the game and have fun. Years of content being laid out already and they would be at starting point 
of it all.

Does that seriously sound in any way more fun or better for this long term path???
Grind remains just that only way you can get through it all will be with your social skills + time and effort
you can put in said mmo. And that's all so much more fair for everyone right? Including the new players.
And no one will tell them it's their fault for not playing from the start with all of you guys? Because
it's only fair that is like that. I mean if you guys still can't see the issue w/e path mmo's follow
p2w or not the core issue with any grind based mmo remains. Unless grinding has no impact on what you can
even do no matter if it's at the start or 10 years later ^^

But what do i know right? Just someone barely able to write some words together and show what it looks like from
this uneducated fools perspective. xd

[LaVersus]

This game is long past pay2win.
its Cheat2Win. Players that sold thousands of TC cheated speedruns sit on millions of gold and scales now, ready to literly just buy every upgrade that comes for the next year or two.

And no, saying that Pay2Win is okey and the game is still fun is the biggest lie ive heard. only a whale would say that.
No Free2play player that has been absolutely outgeard by 1000AP and 500k HP in BG would ever say that pay2win is fine, neither would say any PvE player that isnt taken into any endgame raids or CM groups because he has X AP less then another player that reguarly swipes.

the basegame might be fun, but the fun ends instantaniously at the second it becomes even just a slight competetive and a swiping player will just deal 3 times your dps/points/oneshot you in bg etc.

[Daliah]

I see. And how do we prevent that to begin with? I mean there are sides to everything that ppl decide to join.
As long as there are these sides and not just 1 single side we all join i don't see how anything will get fixed.
The sides i currently see are few but that's more than 1. p2w is bad (side) p2w is okay(side) idc either way
(side) cheating is fine(side) cheating isn't fine(side) and extra side thinking non of this is needed.
But yeah a futile struggle is better than no struggle i guess. Oh well even if there's 1 side maybe that
won't even fix anything. But let's continue to complain till something changes. ^^

[LaVersus]

You say p2w is needed for a game to financially survive. How come the most popular games out there are free games with no p2w only cosmetic shops?
Grind isnt needed either, grind only exists in p2w games to drive players into the cash shop. Making games Inconvenient is to drive players into the cash shop. 

Rather have a million players of which 10% buy a costume once a month, then having 50k players of which 50% swipe a 100$ a month

there are old games that worked so much without grind, by adding more social interactions, more casual play, more  exploration.
And there are new games in development striving to get back to these social mechanics, the aspects of exploring and connecting with people.
looking at Palia, Ashes of Creation for example, of course they are in development still and you can never be certain but the amount of followship for these games shows how much people are sick of grinding pay2win mmos. Palia has probably more exited people on their discord already then blade and soul has active players.

Also these Studios actually connect and listen to their playerbase, something NCsoft hasnt done in the last centurie at all.

Edited September 8, 2021 by LaVersus

[Daliah]

Okay to clear this up. I don't see p2w as needed or w/e else. It simply is here and elsewhere.
So just because other games or w/e can be "successful" without p2w or w/e else that makes them better
means bns will have the same "success" or even more "successful"? If that's how it worked then awesome.
But i don't see that being the case. Someone makes a game and it's awesome and profitable. Doesn't
mean that even if another game was made and applied same payment options will have the same results let alone
better. So even if bns changed to no p2w path there will be same or new/different issues but 
coming from different side of player base that's all. And even if it makes more profits than it ever did
won't change that players let alone any other party here aren't on this 1 single side i mentioned. But yeah
no need to listen to anything to begin with if that's better. It's not for me to decide such things.

[LaVersus]

38 minutes ago, Daliah said:

So just because other games or w/e can be "successful" without p2w or w/e else that makes them better
means bns will have the same "success" or even more "successful"? If that's how it worked then awesome.
 

But thats exactly how it works. Everyone who plays since release will tell you that the game became equaly more unsuccessfull and lost more playerbase as pay2win increased. Dude you can even look up NCsoft Quarter reports where they show how much every game made them in profit every quarter for the last years and you will see that it went down and down and down as it proceeded.
You have to be hell of a rich ignorant idiot to think that this not real thing. Pay2Win destroys games, Pay2win games have the smallest playerbases because only the smallest amount of people can quite literaly afford to compete. And unless amongst these players are like 10 sheichs who swipe in the 6digits every month they are also ultimately less successfull then their non pay2win counterparts.

[Naramnarana]

I agree with Daliah. BNS is still fun. I sometimes spend some money sometimes I don't. I can have a break and then start up again, but need to buy some stuff as I don't have the time to grind. You know the game "Last Chaos"? Nice game, and a true and utterly p2w game. This game does not make any fun without having paid a lot of money, while in BNS you can still grind to the top. It is possible. You can make a lot of gold and then pay for raids. I have done that a lot.  There are a lot of gamers top notch who did not spend much money in BNS. There are also some real whales (play to win). Sometime when I am lazy (and yeah what a lazy ❤ ❤ ❤ ❤ I am) I just buy stuff, to save the time. What makes this game really cool: The community is not that bad! I have met a lot of nice people there. Next: The mech is very cool, the pvp is still cool, you can do a lot with skills! And belive me, I am not very skilled and die very often in PVP, but I am there to have fun and it is fun to be able to decide between pvp and pve which both works very well in the game. Yeah, the programming is still poor, but I have never seen a single game that was perfect. Some say: Oh, the population of the servers go down. Yeah they do, but the BNS com is very stable and I have seen a lot of people who came back (including me after 1,5 years of break). I have to admit, the first 2 years of the game were absolutely fantastic and some of the great fun carried over to these days. I will play this game for the next years. I love it, thats it. I use the possibility to save time. Cheers. 

Edited September 8, 2021 by Naramnarana

[LaVersus]

2 minutes ago, Naramnarana said:

 while in BNS you can still grind to the top.

please share your wisdom, how can I grind to 4k ap, 20k mystic as free2play?
Oh right you cant. sure you can buy stuff from raids, but thats barely mediocre gear, for the real endgame items you need years of grind, basically playing the game as a full time job, and when a game becomes like a repetetive job it hardly can be fun. or well...just 500$ and you can skip an entire year of grind.

[Kazh Ruzara]

These games should be free to design, free to script, free to code.

 

Someone should enslave the artists and musicians and sound designers (and support staff) and make them work for free.

 

FREE FREE FREE!

 

From each according to their abilities . . .

To each according to their desires?

 

How unappreciative and demanding some people sound regarding what they are offered for free.

 

 

[Naramnarana]

1 minute ago, LaVersus said:

please share your wisdom, how can I grind to 4k ap, 20k mystic as free2play?
Oh right you cant. sure you can buy stuff from raids, but thats barely mediocre gear, for the real endgame items you need years of grind, basically playing the game as a full time job, and when a game becomes like a repetetive job it hardly can be fun. or well...just 500$ and you can skip an entire year of grind.

Tell me how to buy a Porsche for one Euro, tell how to become a master musician within a week. There is your answer. Your an angry person, right? Calm down. Every one wants to have fun in life, so what is you real point? Your jealous? You don't have any money? You don't have time? You don't have money and time? 

Here is what I did: I took all my chars and did all dailies, when I had the time to. When I needed mats, I did a lot of pvp, there you can make a lot of gold, but you need to learn the mech and the mech of your counterpart. With that gold I paid for raids, but not the latest, the second one, so paid less. Now I am in a clan, and there we help each other a lot, which saves a ❤ ❤ ❤ ❤ - load of time and gold. And when I had some money left, I bought some Ncoins. That is the whole secret. I sometimes played also during boring conference calls. Best time to grind. I played the game from the very beginning. 

[Naramnarana]

1 minute ago, Kazh Ruzara said:

 

 

How unappreciative and demanding some people sound regarding what they are offered for free.

 

 

Yeah I feel sorry for some of those demanding, because most of them never achived anything. But in BNS you can do a lot. 

[Daliah]

@LaVersus
What i see is that from your view only when you and everyone can be at the top can there be any fun.
While me with my tb3 main can still enjoy the game for what it is and still say i'm having fun when i do play.
But what do other ppl including me know better than you or anyone else right? Someone can tell me it's not fun.
But does that make the fun i had and am having now and then during the times i play "not fun"?

[Kazh Ruzara]

What really grinds my grits is not being able to glide to Master Cho on the first attempt. 😉

 

For background, I'm a new player who started on about Aug 28th (Kung Fu Master, L32 currently) and I am loving so many aspects of the game. Generally I'm a PvE player who plays MMOs as a solo player, but it's great to see other players around.

 

Maybe later the game will guide me toward more PvP and dungeon raids, and then I'll probably move on -- but for now I'm having fun.

Edited September 8, 2021 by Kazh Ruzara
background info

[Kazh Ruzara]

Winning is an empty jar

but the lost horizon

is closer to me than

the autumn in my soul.

[Snatchyy]

1 hour ago, LaVersus said:

please share your wisdom, how can I grind to 4k ap, 20k mystic as free2play?
Oh right you cant. sure you can buy stuff from raids, but thats barely mediocre gear, for the real endgame items you need years of grind, basically playing the game as a full time job, and when a game becomes like a repetetive job it hardly can be fun. or well...just 500$ and you can skip an entire year of grind.

If you actually played the game you'd know those stats (4k ap) are what you consider 'extra'. I seen plenty of f2p players even at 3k+ and their gear is still relevant for current content. Also nobody says you got to play the game like a full time job to catch up, maybe don't play 20 characters and focus time onto one char you would have things get done Lmao.

[Kazh Ruzara]

I think it's better to speak in generalities or to speak from one's own experience than to address someone directly and tell them they have the wrong idea.

[Daliah]

@Kazh Ruzara
That was nice to read ^^ Glad to know that even as a solo player bns is a fun experience for you ^^
We all like different or same things and for our own reasons also but it's often difficult to find
what it is that we seek. And not trying to ruin the experience for others while still looking for it ourselves
would be great. And it would be nice if we could accept that much at least and not complain at every
chance possible about how something that any of us can't enjoy is awful. Constant complaints about p2w
was the reason why i even bothered to write anything even if it changes nothing.

[Kazh Ruzara]

18 minutes ago, Daliah said:

@Kazh Ruzara
That was nice to read ^^ Glad to know that even as a solo player bns is a fun experience for you ^^
We all like different or same things and for our own reasons also but it's often difficult to find
what it is that we seek. And not trying to ruin the experience for others while still looking for it ourselves
would be great. And it would be nice if we could accept that much at least and not complain at every
chance possible about how something that any of us can't enjoy is awful. Constant complaints about p2w
was the reason why i even bothered to write anything even if it changes nothing.

Thank you, Daliah.

 

And if I may follow up on a tangent which might still be on-topic, recently I have had to navigate the webs of two spiders in my carport (Florida). One has her web across the top of the doorway into the laundry room, and the other comes down from a hole in the carport's ceiling (rain damage) after midnight, and takes her web back up in the morning. The three of us have been accommodating to one another: I am mindful of their webs, and they leave some room for me to come and go.

 

This for me is more pleasing than reaching the top of an artificial pyramid would be.

Edited September 8, 2021 by Kazh Ruzara
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