Ban 3rd spec from PVP

[ARC-1276]

No, seriously, just ban it from Arena.

 

Third specs are ridiculously broken and horribly balanced. Des reduces damage to self by a metric boatload, gets a bunch of iframes, huge damage output and they destroy everyone's FPS. BM has a literally two "I'm invincible" buttons (one literally is invincibility and the other is block everything that isn't behind you, passively), and easy to get 100-0 air combo (meaning you can't just tab out of it). Assassins also have an invincibility button, two actually. There's immortal flicker (which just stops them from dying and gives them back 50% HP) and Cover of Night (Literally invincible). And let's not even get started on FM's 3rd spec (it's not fun to play, nor is it fun to play against)

 

All of this nonsense is packaged nicely and neatly into their 3rd specs, the 3rd specs also seem to be the source of most of my issues with class balancing here. I don't think I'm alone in saying that these specs need to be banned in general 1v1 and 3v3 arenas for the sake of balancing. KR tournaments have banned them as well because they're so game breaking!

 

I say, we do the same and just ban them in the general arena. None of them are fun to play in the arena anyway, and some of them are just bad compared to what we had from before, while others are just busted (there is no in between).

[ImoutoMaster]

7 hours ago, ARC-1276 said:

No, seriously, just ban it from Arena.

Has been requested even before the BM got released.

7 hours ago, ARC-1276 said:

Third specs are ridiculously broken and horribly balanced.

Not all of them. KFM third is garbrage. BM third is okish but far inferiour to light or fire spec. Destroyer depends on matchup but mostly worse then earth too. Assasin, Summoner, Force master are broken beyond reason.

7 hours ago, ARC-1276 said:

Des reduces damage to self by a metric boatload

Not enough thou. Force master has way more reduction. You can just pve them when they go into their stance they dont have that much offensive abilitys.

7 hours ago, ARC-1276 said:

destroy everyone's FPS

Hopefully fixed with UE4.

7 hours ago, ARC-1276 said:

BM has a literally two "I'm invincible" buttons (one literally is invincibility and the other is block everything that isn't behind you, passively),

1 is 2 seconds the other is not against anything but it blocks a lot yeah. Thats definetly not op. Only thing id like to be removed from them is their passive. Sometimes they have randoom resists to aerials. But look at what they lose form going to third. 1. 2nd tab escape, 2. Untargatable ability, 3. alot of dmg since their dmg is aerial based which is hard to do.

7 hours ago, ARC-1276 said:

Assassins also have an invincibility button, two actually.

They have 1 but it only has 18 seconds cooldown which is the problem. Compare it to soul fighter who has the same skill. 3 Minutes Cooldown and nearly 2 seconds animation time which will give you a cooldown of 3 minutes without activating the skill if you get stunned in the animation. Also it heals 30% not 50% for assasin while soul fighter heals nothing.

7 hours ago, ARC-1276 said:

And let's not even get started on FM's 3rd spec

Tab walk to op in my oppinion. Has no cooldown and can heal you 100% health back. If Godmode atleast had a cooldown of 3 Minutes that would be fine but it has 36 seconds or something. Its super hard getting 2 tab escapes down while he has a tab walk without cd that gives him immortality and protection against anything. Most of the time he will have his tabs back cause to low cds.

7 hours ago, ARC-1276 said:

the 3rd specs also seem to be the source of most of my issues with class balancing here.

Not entirely but they are a huge factor. There are several non 3rds that need a serious nerf too. BM untargatable iframe, destroyer red spin, Force Master Wallbang, Warden Blade ward (6v6 only) ............... there is alot. Banning thirds would help alot thou cause fm, assasin are thoose classes destroying the balance the most.

7 hours ago, ARC-1276 said:

I don't think I'm alone in saying that these specs need to be banned in general 1v1 and 3v3 arenas for the sake of balancing. KR tournaments have banned them as well because they're so game breaking!

At this point it dosent matter what 1v1 and 3v3 is doing since no one plays them. 3v3 are no players at all i doubt there is a single player gold without wintrade in there. 1v1 is litterly 3 or 5 players wintrading with their 20 accounts. Even if you wanted to play 1v1 you wouldnt come far unless you play like a platin player yourselfe or atleast close. I can only manage with my main class at this point.

 

 

Look at the vid i posted there litterly only platin players. The SF is Nagisa Yuki which i encounter in 1380 too.

 

I think i told you that already but NCwest dosent support this game anymore even less in pvp. i doubt Hime will even listen this thread since its about pvp.

 

Thirds are definetly one of the biggest issue but do you really think they gonna do something about it after 2 and a half year of unbalanced game without a single decent patch ?

[Shekinah]

If I recall right it was said that 3rd specs ae banned, like in shackeld isles, because not all classes had them. Doubt it would be balanced if all 3rd specs are relased. Or at least I wouln't call it balanced if it's op vs. op.

Though NC has given up on balancing pvp and I doubt coming 3rd specs won't be broken or op. PvP has lost it's appeal because of bad or non-existing management and the player base cheating the heck out of the game. It's just no fun to play pvp anymore.

[sFMos]

4 hours ago, ImoutoMaster said:

Has been requested even before the BM got released.

Not all of them. KFM third is garbrage. BM third is okish but far inferiour to light or fire spec. Destroyer depends on matchup but mostly worse then earth too. Assasin, Summoner, Force master are broken beyond reason.

Not enough thou. Force master has way more reduction. You can just pve them when they go into their stance they dont have that much offensive abilitys.

Hopefully fixed with UE4.

1 is 2 seconds the other is not against anything but it blocks a lot yeah. Thats definetly not op. Only thing id like to be removed from them is their passive. Sometimes they have randoom resists to aerials. But look at what they lose form going to third. 1. 2nd tab escape, 2. Untargatable ability, 3. alot of dmg since their dmg is aerial based which is hard to do.

They have 1 but it only has 18 seconds cooldown which is the problem. Compare it to soul fighter who has the same skill. 3 Minutes Cooldown and nearly 2 seconds animation time which will give you a cooldown of 3 minutes without activating the skill if you get stunned in the animation. Also it heals 30% not 50% for assasin while soul fighter heals nothing.

Tab walk to op in my oppinion. Has no cooldown and can heal you 100% health back. If Godmode atleast had a cooldown of 3 Minutes that would be fine but it has 36 seconds or something. Its super hard getting 2 tab escapes down while he has a tab walk without cd that gives him immortality and protection against anything. Most of the time he will have his tabs back cause to low cds.

Not entirely but they are a huge factor. There are several non 3rds that need a serious nerf too. BM untargatable iframe, destroyer red spin, Force Master Wallbang, Warden Blade ward (6v6 only) ............... there is alot. Banning thirds would help alot thou cause fm, assasin are thoose classes destroying the balance the most.

At this point it dosent matter what 1v1 and 3v3 is doing since no one plays them. 3v3 are no players at all i doubt there is a single player gold without wintrade in there. 1v1 is litterly 3 or 5 players wintrading with their 20 accounts. Even if you wanted to play 1v1 you wouldnt come far unless you play like a platin player yourselfe or atleast close. I can only manage with my main class at this point.

 

 

Look at the vid i posted there litterly only platin players. The SF is Nagisa Yuki which i encounter in 1380 too.

 

I think i told you that already but NCwest dosent support this game anymore even less in pvp. i doubt Hime will even listen this thread since its about pvp.

 

Thirds are definetly one of the biggest issue but do you really think they gonna do something about it after 2 and a half year of unbalanced game without a single decent patch ?

 

Please enlighten me how wallbang is op..

You wanna compare a 30 key combo where you have to time everything with lets say BD's who just 100-0 you in a single air with 2 buttons covered by infinite shields and having tech chases that are impossible to miss?

And wallbang is easy to counter, all you have to do is stay away from walls and keep an iframe against grab... the grab animation on fm is slow af.

There's maybe 2 classes who can't counter being wallbanged, everyone else can... also there like 2 people who can do it without macro.

Its only op if you have a much lower ping and can insta throw people before they can tab, but this doesn't happen against people gold rank+ they'll tab or use grab counter if you try it.

 

Most classes can just pve spam a frost fm to death, all they gotta do is make sure to iframe grab.. beside that we got nothing anyway.

Even sins have more ranged cc's than us. 

Edited June 15, 2021 by sFMos

[sFMos]

6 hours ago, ImoutoMaster said:

Has been requested even before the BM got released.

Not all of them. KFM third is garbrage. BM third is okish but far inferiour to light or fire spec. Destroyer depends on matchup but mostly worse then earth too. Assasin, Summoner, Force master are broken beyond reason.

Not enough thou. Force master has way more reduction. You can just pve them when they go into their stance they dont have that much offensive abilitys.

Hopefully fixed with UE4.

1 is 2 seconds the other is not against anything but it blocks a lot yeah. Thats definetly not op. Only thing id like to be removed from them is their passive. Sometimes they have randoom resists to aerials. But look at what they lose form going to third. 1. 2nd tab escape, 2. Untargatable ability, 3. alot of dmg since their dmg is aerial based which is hard to do.

They have 1 but it only has 18 seconds cooldown which is the problem. Compare it to soul fighter who has the same skill. 3 Minutes Cooldown and nearly 2 seconds animation time which will give you a cooldown of 3 minutes without activating the skill if you get stunned in the animation. Also it heals 30% not 50% for assasin while soul fighter heals nothing.

Tab walk to op in my oppinion. Has no cooldown and can heal you 100% health back. If Godmode atleast had a cooldown of 3 Minutes that would be fine but it has 36 seconds or something. Its super hard getting 2 tab escapes down while he has a tab walk without cd that gives him immortality and protection against anything. Most of the time he will have his tabs back cause to low cds.

Not entirely but they are a huge factor. There are several non 3rds that need a serious nerf too. BM untargatable iframe, destroyer red spin, Force Master Wallbang, Warden Blade ward (6v6 only) ............... there is alot. Banning thirds would help alot thou cause fm, assasin are thoose classes destroying the balance the most.

At this point it dosent matter what 1v1 and 3v3 is doing since no one plays them. 3v3 are no players at all i doubt there is a single player gold without wintrade in there. 1v1 is litterly 3 or 5 players wintrading with their 20 accounts. Even if you wanted to play 1v1 you wouldnt come far unless you play like a platin player yourselfe or atleast close. I can only manage with my main class at this point.

 

 

Look at the vid i posted there litterly only platin players. The SF is Nagisa Yuki which i encounter in 1380 too.

 

I think i told you that already but NCwest dosent support this game anymore even less in pvp. i doubt Hime will even listen this thread since its about pvp.

 

Thirds are definetly one of the biggest issue but do you really think they gonna do something about it after 2 and a half year of unbalanced game without a single decent patch ?

Grab a sum, he sends cat at you... and escapes..
Grabbing an archer? good luck with the endless iframe spam and immunity on every single button..

Grab a 3rd spec des with it's endless immunity and shields?
Grab an assassin with it's double escapes and who can  run circles in stealth to fill up time?
A bd with it's 6 shields and endless air's/cc's they spam on you?
A bm who just spams untargatable dashes doing 30% per hit, or who's 3rd spec can even block grab.. (with normal combo build you can grab them yeah)

The only classes that don't really have much against is it astro/warlock/gun/sf/kfm. (except wl maybe)
But they still can beat frost FM by just iframing/shielding the grab and putting pressure on the fm after.. 

Also there's barely anyone playing these classes.. the que is mainly a certain person who i can't name which his 300 bd's/sins... which is just a horrible matchup as frost fm.

[ImoutoMaster]

15 hours ago, sFMos said:

Please enlighten me how wallbang is op..

I meant it more in a way it shouldnt exists. Its not op like FM third godmode skill op but i dont think you should be able to do a untabable combo which can only be evaded by predicting the grab. Grab cannot be tabbed either cause the throw comes way to fast. I simply think it shouldnt be a thing but its not op like the godmode skill.

15 hours ago, sFMos said:

You wanna compare a 30 key combo where you have to time everything with lets say BD's who just 100-0 you in a single air with 2 buttons covered by infinite shields and having tech chases that are impossible to miss?

BD has to combo too for 100/0 unless you only talk about 6v6 but even there usually i survive an aerial of them. Booth are combos but the difference between BD and FM is that you can escape the BDs. I dont want wallbang to be removed cause without it Ice FM is useles nowdays but atleast it should be possible to escape it like with any other combo.

15 hours ago, sFMos said:

And wallbang is easy to counter, all you have to do is stay away from walls and keep an iframe against grab... the grab animation on fm is slow af.

Not always possible if the fm stays on range. It will be a waiting game if you dont attack even if the FM hugs the wall.

15 hours ago, sFMos said:

There's maybe 2 classes who can't counter being wallbanged, everyone else can... also there like 2 people who can do it without macro.

Like i said i just dont think it should exists its not op in general its just bad gamedesign in my oppinion. I mean why does a tab escape exists ? its to escape from CC and this is a CC that cannot be tabbed.

15 hours ago, sFMos said:

Its only op if you have a much lower ping and can insta throw people before they can tab, but this doesn't happen against people gold rank+ they'll tab or use grab counter if you try it.

It dosent happen in gold yeah but in silver cause no one plays above silver anymore. But yeah there is only 1 ICE FM i know and he has huge problems doing wallbang.

 

[sFMos]

10 hours ago, ImoutoMaster said:

I meant it more in a way it shouldnt exists. Its not op like FM third godmode skill op but i dont think you should be able to do a untabable combo which can only be evaded by predicting the grab. Grab cannot be tabbed either cause the throw comes way to fast. I simply think it shouldnt be a thing but its not op like the godmode skill.

BD has to combo too for 100/0 unless you only talk about 6v6 but even there usually i survive an aerial of them. Booth are combos but the difference between BD and FM is that you can escape the BDs. I dont want wallbang to be removed cause without it Ice FM is useles nowdays but atleast it should be possible to escape it like with any other combo.

Not always possible if the fm stays on range. It will be a waiting game if you dont attack even if the FM hugs the wall.

Like i said i just dont think it should exists its not op in general its just bad gamedesign in my oppinion. I mean why does a tab escape exists ? its to escape from CC and this is a CC that cannot be tabbed.

It dosent happen in gold yeah but in silver cause no one plays above silver anymore. But yeah there is only 1 ICE FM i know and he has huge problems doing wallbang.

 

 

Well i agree, but then it should get buffed a lot... and would need to be completely changed.

Without wallbang frost FM is completely useless, and can maybe fight like 2 specific specs of classes ingame..

But it IS possible to iframe it, especially at range.. range makes it even easier.. all you have to do is iframe when you see the animation start, (it's often super predictable, cause opponents only have a small window where you could try to grab) if you got an FM at EU i would spar you with my astro to show that you cant grab me, and even without having a tab escape for grab (though its fixed now) you can still beat frost fms..

combine this with the fact people using either auto tab's or use grab counter when you try to insta-throw them and you'll see why frost fm has an incredible hard time even with having 100-0 wallbangs... pulling it off, is just nearly impossible vs most classes that are being played atm, all they have to do is cover the 2second window where they can get hit by an iframe and you can't even touch them..

Frost FM is in a horrible place atm, even with wallbang... asking for a "nerf" for them is silly, though changing it i wouldn't mind too much... so we can actually fight people without having to rely on that lucky throw to start the wallbang, and hope the server won't lag or stacks skip so people escape the combo 😕

 

And BD's tech chase can't fail.. with those fasts hits they use in air they do like 80% with the single tech chase that will follow you whatever you do..

It even does like 55% when in veil, while their combo's used to do like 10% in veil before... we have nothing against this class atm.. they are permanently covered by shields, and we're permanently aired or cc'ed.. hitting grab against them is less likely than winning the lottery..

There's no reason for a BD to have this much shields, nor this much damage... this is about as dumb as the patch where FM had to just press F F F F F F F in 45/50 patch to beat bd's cause they would be perma frozen and couldn't deflect it.

Edited June 16, 2021 by sFMos

[Ioseppo TiLt3bUg]

On 6/15/2021 at 4:42 AM, ARC-1276 said:

No, seriously, just ban it from Arena.

 

Third specs are ridiculously broken and horribly balanced. Des reduces damage to self by a metric boatload, gets a bunch of iframes, huge damage output and they destroy everyone's FPS. BM has a literally two "I'm invincible" buttons (one literally is invincibility and the other is block everything that isn't behind you, passively), and easy to get 100-0 air combo (meaning you can't just tab out of it). Assassins also have an invincibility button, two actually. There's immortal flicker (which just stops them from dying and gives them back 50% HP) and Cover of Night (Literally invincible). And let's not even get started on FM's 3rd spec (it's not fun to play, nor is it fun to play against)

 

All of this nonsense is packaged nicely and neatly into their 3rd specs, the 3rd specs also seem to be the source of most of my issues with class balancing here. I don't think I'm alone in saying that these specs need to be banned in general 1v1 and 3v3 arenas for the sake of balancing. KR tournaments have banned them as well because they're so game breaking!

 

I say, we do the same and just ban them in the general arena. None of them are fun to play in the arena anyway, and some of them are just bad compared to what we had from before, while others are just busted (there is no in between).

 

Totally agree. And also ban them from the battleground.

[RinDman]

Ban third spec destro ? When every class can roll on it except one or two only and no guarantee matchup ? Sure ...

[ImoutoMaster]

12 hours ago, RinDman said:

Ban third spec destro ? When every class can roll on it except one or two only and no guarantee matchup ? Sure ...

Its mainly about Summoner, Force Master and Assasin. Everyone with pvp knowledge knows the third of Des, BM and KFM are gabrage in pvp. BM can be a bit boothersome cause its the class with the easiest Aerial in this game but there is litterly nothing else they can do.

[sojaa]

Listen the fundamental problem with 6v6 is the fact that it don't attract new players. What incentive do they have to pvp? So they can get mobbed or 1 shotted? Gear is the problem right now. Certain skills too. Buy to pvp was never the answer. What incentives do ppl have to 6v6 clan? None. Because a new clan cant participate if they do guess what totally wiped . No new draws to what I consider to be the best aspect that this game had. I go 6v6 I know in beluga there will be sin cheeses. Whirlwind I know there will be ill be fighting a warden or destroyer sitting on a point. Nova I know itll be full of fms for most of the night. What fun is that even for a experienced players? So what do u think new players are going to do? Not participating because all of the 6v6 community gets butthurt if 1 ques up and they have to face stuff like that. Cant even remove the gear because xmls and gcd will run the game down with a get good type scenario (get good isnt cheating btw). Really they are not good. They are getting slower because gear is allowing them to do what 1 tech, air and kill.  Imoutomaster in one air you can be wiped basically a 1 shot (technically its not a 1 shot however its 1 air 1 animation 1 burst 1 death) . You are not doing anything but hoping your party i frames you. You think any new players that come to check it out want to hear people cry about their gear? No they are there for the fun un till they realize they have no place and what happens when they realize they don't have a place they just pve( someone who pvps will leave the game for a more equalized opportunity to pvp in another game removing potential for them to invest ever thus a loss of income on bns part). 3rd spec bans wont matter because guess what...They will just find another way to do what they always do. If they dont do something soon all pvp will be wiped because people wont play it. Imagine this you go to play blackjack believing you have a chance. You find out the deck is stacked. Would you go back to that table? Lets go deeper then that...that casino allowed for 12 or 13 of their games to be stacked would you go back to that casino? Point being is no incentives to want to participate in that environment.. Bns allows this stuff and its horrible for marketing pvp. Players make it worse by not encouraging people to stay and get better gear. Instead its hey stay up top and don't do anything you're feeding them or heavily trash talking them.  SFMOS this game unfortunately has classes that are good for 1v1 that suck in 6v6 and vice versa. The nerf came from the abuse of frost fm from back in the day thus never recovering because a new spec came out. 3rd fm spec still op af in 6v6. You seem to get one or the other and not ever on what spec u like. 

[ImoutoMaster]

58 minutes ago, sojaa said:

problem with 6v6 is the fact that it don't attract new players.

Thats what i am writing since years now. If you come to a MMO your priority is usually PVE and if they want to do pvp they notice they have to farm for weeks if not months to even get okish pvp gear. A gamemode thats not their priority !

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What incentive do they have to pvp?

Since SSP rework there is nothing besides HM coins which you need to play a class like soul fighter to have a decent ammount at season end. Top 5 Soul fighter is litterly 1620 while FM and Assasin for example are 1830.

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Buy to pvp was never the answer

Thats why i could never enjoy Black Desert after i reached lvl 56 i got told pvp is 100% gear based and i was gone.

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What incentives do ppl have to 6v6 clan?

Additional Zen beans, Bloodpoints but yeah unless you have a full team with atleast okish pvp gear you wont be able to even win 1 match. We had a match against rank 1 guild (1550 ranking) while we where still in 1317 ranking even without them the worst teams we faced had atleast full Elder Scale accesories.

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I go 6v6 I know in beluga there will be sin cheeses. Whirlwind I know there will be ill be fighting a warden or destroyer sitting on a point. Nova I know itll be full of fms for most of the night. What fun is that even for a experienced players? 

I am an experienced player (Soul fighter) and i want to quit the game everytime i play pvp but i do not cause pve is still kinda fun. I can tell you thou the balance issue are not the biggest problem pvp has. 1. Wintrade, 2. Cheats, 3. multi chars, 4. gear requirement (6v6), 5. class balance. 6. worthness of pvp i mean just do pve at this point you earn way more.  I would say thats the order in whats the biggest problem in pvp.

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Imoutomaster in one air you can be wiped basically a 1 shot (technically its not a 1 shot however its 1 air 1 animation 1 burst 1 death) . You are not doing anything but hoping your party i frames you.

Was different before they removed the dmg debuff from 6v6. Now usually i die in one air too before my bracelet protected me. But yeah 1 shot is not 1 aerial. 1 Aerial you have the possibility to survive cause of team one shot you just die.

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someone who pvps will leave the game for a more equalized opportunity to pvp in another game removing potential for them to invest ever thus a loss of income on bns part).

To be honest pvp is not earning them much money its probably costing them money cause of the hm coins. It lessens the need to use Ncoin. I would actully prefer to see them remove hm coins (1v1) entirely and make stuff like Oils.... farmabe with pvp. 30k zen beans for example = 1 oil or whatever to make it worth.

 

The removal of hm coins would also heavily reduce wintrade and multi accounts cause there is just no need anymore to play with 60 chars.

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3rd spec bans wont matter because guess what...They will just find another way to do what they always do.

In my oppinion every third just need slightly changed skills to be balanced. FM third = give tab walk a cd of like 3 sec or something, Summoner = make his skills more visible and reduce cat ufo shield so its killable, Assasin = make it possible to stun him when he is in phantom stance or remove phantom stance after 5 hits. ............ long story short id prefer them changing the third specs skills instead to be honest.

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If they dont do something soon all pvp will be wiped because people wont play it.

Arena is wiped out already. Arena is the entry point to 6v6 so its just a matter of time 6v6 is completly dead too.

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Players make it worse by not encouraging people to stay and get better gear. Instead its hey stay up top and don't do anything you're feeding them or heavily trash talking them.

People tell them to get gear and how to get gear but thoose that get flamed like this usually dont boother and think its ok for them to join with story gear chars multiple times cause the game allows them to enter.

 

 

 

Note: i mostly refer to 1v1 cause i think 1v1 is more important than 6v6.

 

Edited July 9, 2021 by ImoutoMaster

[sojaa]

As far as balancing Tab walk fm should go. Stupid af for 6v6. Tab 3 sin beluga cheese. Stupid af for 6v6.  I think before they even publish these skills they should be look at in a pvp aspect and have them do different things in pvp. They skipped wl it dont even do wl 3rd spec same as bd( not 6v6 compatible .  Like someone needs to be fired. Lets give a 10 sec immuntiy to this class and this 1 gets a 1 sec immunity. Prime example is summoner now. its got a long i frame not a 5 hit or 3 hit but lets give them seconds. Same with sin. Same with fm.  if they reduce all classes to 3 to 5 sec i frames might have more logic.

Edited July 11, 2021 by sojaa