Why is trying to be optimal considered Toxic & elitist?

[Uldrum]

Hey. just wanna throw this question out there since i've been wondering it for a while.

 

Why is it that if you are trying to make the runs as fast and optimal as possible.. you are considered "Toxic" ?

 

I just find fast runs more enjoyable.

[Belido]

Well, 

 

lets check RL:

 

why are ppl so unhappy if they get fired from job, just because of a company that wants to be more efficient and improve shareholder value? And yes, the shareholder will enjoy this!

 

So maybe try to relax a bit, at least in-game!

[IAmWho]

Myself as a tank most of the time, hate bds the most. Why? Because out of 10 bds, 9 of them would go in and engage the boss first before the actual tank goes in, after 3 seconds of fight, the threat returned to the actual tank, and the bd was not even on the dps meter. This applies to most bd, but does not apply to the ones with high gears who can over threat a lot. However, the top geared people generally have a good understanding about the “Tank goes in first” since they do high tier raids a lot. Most importantly, if you are not doing a lot of dps and you rush in first, you are not helping at all, instead you are slowing it down.

 

Now, why tank goes in first? As a good tank (religiously tank), their roles are to let the boss focus on them only and to provide a “good dps condition” to the parties; Let the bosses stay where they should, rather than jumping around the room or using range check abilities (this is when the tank or whoever the boss is focusing is too far or too close to the boss, this is based on the nature of the boss, range tankable or melee tankable). Tanks should bait all boss attacks to a specified zone, so the dpsing parties would not get interrupted or cced by boss attacks. You should now understand why being a rushie is slowing down the fight instead of optimizing, if you are still not quite sure, keep reading.

 

Why first engagers rather than the tank are madafakas? Most of these mdfks does not want to tank at all, they can’t even hold the threat, or sometimes if they do, they just bait the boss attack randomly and hitting all the party members, causing them to be cced and hence reducing their dps output (indirectly slowed down the fight). Maybe the mdfk engager started 3 seconds “early” thinking this fight is going to end 3 seconds early, while the truth is the whole party’s dps is handicapped because of him, but again you really rush for those 3 seconds? (although the actual outcome of rushing those 3 seconds is delayed for more time). Secondly, many players use long soul for bursting, like some spectral blade bm, fire gunner, some phantom sins. If a random mdfk forces a fight, these people would have to follow (the bm would be raging right now since he didn’t go in first as a tank), especially the bm who was supposed to tank. As soon as the tank goes in, triggered long soul, the boss initiates his second attack, causing cc or knock back to him, before he starts to burst and using resists or blocks to counter that (he didn’t have time to, because he was dashing in, if you tell me to hmb start, then you are a selfish ❤ ❤ ❤ ❤). Now, expect what happen next? A bursting class with a long soul in cd, lying on the floor trying to tab up and doing 2k dps (the approach skill), all because of a mdfk. Now is this mdfk really helping or is he just a toxic AHole in the view of these interrupted bursters? 
 

Oh, and sometimes, people aren’t even ready, someone was still running in! He started the boss, oh and one guy said brb washroom, he was the top dps! Gg wipe, nice 3 second quicker engage btw. A dumber case, the boss is supposed to tank at ranged, he jumped in, vice versa, some ranged class started to burst at 16m for a melee boss causing the boss to jump and stunning the whole room etc etc etc. Tons of drama and pepega clowns.

 

 

TLDR: if you are doing 10m+ dps in low tier raids or dungeons, ignore this post because you are party’s dps, and you are carrying them.

[Tyanie]

There are some reasons for that. As far as I can tell:

• Zero patience: There are a few who will not wait a few seconds more for people to make it in time at bosses. I've seen it happening in last week's 2 weekly trains already.
• Mistakes/Experience: Because of being greedy for example trying to be the greatest dpser or any other accident which the failed players themselves will think that these things never really happen to them.
• Lags: We will never know when a player will complain about lags and it could concern even the players which you prefer to have in your runs. Your favorite picks can end up being garbage for others. I've been observing this for a long time and some aren't even welcomed here and there.

As a conclusion, you need to know that the system of this game has more effective fundamentals for invoking toxicity amongst the playerbase but that doesn't really apply to only bns. 

Edit:
Another thing I can add for you is that there are indeed mentally handicapped people playing mmos. So, pretty much an expecting thing to see people messing with you. The best thing i can recommend you is to ignore their existence.

Edited August 20, 2020 by Tyanie

[Belido]

vor 41 Minuten schrieb IAmWho:

Myself as a tank most of the time, hate bds the most. Why? Because out of 10 bds, 9 of them would go in and engage the boss first before the actual tank goes in, after 3 seconds of fight, the threat returned to the actual tank, and the bd was not even on the dps meter.

Oh, I rather see BD who are actually tank, or it's a trigger happy gunner messing the stuff  up rather.

Anyway, I very agree with the tank in 1st thing, maybe because I am still ol school, were everything else just been a wipe.

PS: and yes, I hate bouncing targets! 

Edited August 20, 2020 by Belido

[IAmWho]

2 minutes ago, Belido said:

PS: and yes, I hate bouncing targets! 

The purpose of tank revealed

[JoannaRamira]

2 hours ago, Uldrum said:

Hey. just wanna throw this question out there since i've been wondering it for a while.

 

Why is it that if you are trying to make the runs as fast and optimal as possible.. you are considered "Toxic" ?

 

I just find fast runs more enjoyable.

Are you doing this in someone else's party ?

 

If you do this thing in your own party... then that's their problem. If it's in someone else's party, you can always guarantee smells of blood.

[Uldrum]

1 hour ago, JoannaRamira said:

Are you doing this in someone else's party ?

 

If you do this thing in your own party... then that's their problem. If it's in someone else's party, you can always guarantee smells of blood.

I just often see low geared calling whales "Elitist and toxic" when people make 2k+ parties for stuff.

Just wondering why it's considered elitist and toxic to try and make a fast and smooth run.

[JoannaRamira]

4 minutes ago, Uldrum said:

I just often see low geared calling whales "Elitist and toxic" when people make 2k+ parties for stuff.

Just wondering why it's considered elitist and toxic to try and make a fast and smooth run.

That's their problem.  you can take or not taking them, they can complain all they want.

Wondering about that will only get you to the common sickening conclusion "people wants carry etc"  and not gonna help making better community.

 

The best solution would just make party, take everyone in... go as far as you can. Kick as necessary. recruit again.  But then this is 2020 not 2016 where people still tries.

[Belido]

vor 51 Minuten schrieb Uldrum:

I just often see low geared calling whales "Elitist and toxic" when people make 2k+ parties for stuff.

Just wondering why it's considered elitist and toxic to try and make a fast and smooth run.

well that's your turn. OK maybe not call 2k just for show off, ie for CS it would look like .... , well as you said.

But right now, looking at new MSP 1-6 runs, with 2k+ req everyone would wonder why you recruit that low 

 

PS: my personal approach for this is about: don't use 3 minutes of additional recruitment time to get a team that makes the run just about 1 minute faster.

Edited August 20, 2020 by Belido

[Nicolee]

1 hour ago, Uldrum said:

I just often see low geared calling whales "Elitist and toxic" when people make 2k+ parties for stuff.
Just wondering why it's considered elitist and toxic to try and make a fast and smooth run.

Because at one point you had to have others who had higher gear than you who helped you through dungeons.  Now you are only concerned about yourself in a 'social mmo' game and are seen as unwilling to help out others get through their newbie stage.  

 

If it was a minority who formed insanely high groups, it wouldn't be taken so bad, but almost all the groups in MSP are asking for high level equipment.  Before this, MSP was open to most players -- now, it may have become an elite-only event that has taken the place of an open one.  That's not going to make people happy and people who recruit in faction / area chat for other elite members are going to get flack for stiff requirements that many might not be able to meet.

 

If you want less flack, go organize your runs in a Discord like Ocean, then just show up at MSP with your group and do it.  No announcements in game -- so you won't become a lightening rod for people's frustration with the new MSP requirements.

[Laura099]

I'm amazed this is even a question truth be told.
A lot of high geared players flak the lower geared players saying "you no do 5mil dps, you make run slow" when the dungeon requires 500k dps per person. A lot of people are now unwilling to "carry" as they call it, or as it is in any other mmo that doesn't focus on only the top dps playerbase, "boost", people through even the lowest dungeons, claiming "you make my run 2 seconds slower"
Before Steelbreaker people could solo CC in about 5-10 minutes max, so tell me why people are now recruiting for that 5mil+ dps for a party of 6 for the same dungeon? It makes the dungeon itself like 30 seconds faster since most of it is running anyways. Has anyone ever cared? No. "You no high gear, get kicked pleb" was the mentality of some stupid elitists for a longgg time because they didn't want to do mechs. Now you don't have to. And instead of helping low geared players it's still "I want fast daily." While every dungeon req is now over 500k (including VT which is what would get you to 500k funny enough) just to clear by enrage.
In the end you get flak because all you've done is you've made it take longer for you, for those high geared people in those party, and potentially screwed over a mid-tier player trying to catch up so they can contribute. Recruit an extra 5 minutes just so the dungeon can take 20 seconds fewer is unfathomable and inefficient, but not for BnS players, nono.
And no I'm not saying you're like this, but this is the general consensus of many because that's how it was treated by the higher-geared population.

[Li Mingxia]

15 hours ago, Nicolee said:

Because at one point you had to have others who had higher gear than you who helped you through dungeons.  Now you are only concerned about yourself in a 'social mmo' game and are seen as unwilling to help out others get through their newbie stage.  

 

If it was a minority who formed insanely high groups, it wouldn't be taken so bad, but almost all the groups in MSP are asking for high level equipment.  Before this, MSP was open to most players -- now, it may have become an elite-only event that has taken the place of an open one.  That's not going to make people happy and people who recruit in faction / area chat for other elite members are going to get flack for stiff requirements that many might not be able to meet.

 

If you want less flack, go organize your runs in a Discord like Ocean, then just show up at MSP with your group and do it.  No announcements in game -- so you won't become a lightening rod for people's frustration with the new MSP requirements.

What’s Ocean and how do I join? I don’t see a link for it anywhere. Are they like some secret club or something only for high skilled players?

[Crimhare]

15 hours ago, Laura099 said:

Recruit an extra 5 minutes just so the dungeon can take 20 seconds fewer is unfathomable and inefficient, but not for BnS players, nono.

I saw that mentality in every mmo I played. People spam 'be experienced/ geared/ link achievment/ 3K+ dps' etc etc for hours when dungeon can be finished in NN minutes top with one experienced player teaching 3-4-5 noobs. Little longer if you need to teach noob tank. BnS just highlights such behaviour due to ehh... fractured community and huge disparity in gear/experience/wealth.

Edited August 21, 2020 by Crimhare

[Nicolee]

1 hour ago, Li Mingxia said:

What’s Ocean and how do I join? I don’t see a link for it anywhere. Are they like some secret club or something only for high skilled players?

It's a channel on discord.  Levels of membership determined by DPS on the training dummy.  Minimum is 3M DPS average on training dummy.  I think it is called Ocean as being a home for whales.

[Laura099]

21 hours ago, Tyanie said:

Edit:
Another thing I can add for you is that there are indeed mentally handicapped people playing mmos. So, pretty much an expecting thing to see people messing with you. The best thing i can recommend you is to ignore their existence.

I'm hoping this doesn't mean to ignore mentally handicapped people, because let me tell you, I know a few people that had autism and they performed better than most "whales" today. In fact I know two of them used to be in Homra, which if I recall correctly Ocean was started by a friend of said clan.

[Cor]

There is nothing toxic about making high ap reqs, only people crying about it are the ones that think it's natural that they get carried by the higher geared players. Nothing except their own lazyness stops them from making their own party with lower ap requirement.

[Arcsine]

23 hours ago, Tyanie said:

There are some reasons for that. As far as I can tell:

• Zero patience: There are a few who will not wait a few seconds more for people to make it in time at bosses. I've seen it happening in last week's 2 weekly trains already.
• Mistakes/Experience: Because of being greedy for example trying to be the greatest dpser or any other accident which the failed players themselves will think that these things never really happen to them.
• Lags: We will never know when a player will complain about lags and it could concern even the players which you prefer to have in your runs. Your favorite picks can end up being garbage for others. I've been observing this for a long time and some aren't even welcomed here and there.

As a conclusion, you need to know that the system of this game has more effective fundamentals for invoking toxicity amongst the playerbase but that doesn't really apply to only bns. 

Edit:
Another thing I can add for you is that there are indeed mentally handicapped people playing mmos. So, pretty much an expecting thing to see people messing with you. The best thing i can recommend you is to ignore their existence.

I would also add a notable degree of laziness among the community. A big example of this actually being why the cross-server lobby is still being used despite it being completely unnecessary ever since the last server merge. People just seem to be too lazy to know where dungeons are located on the map or to even use CTRL+J and click Windstride even though F8 results in about twice as many load screens. 

 

F8: for every dungeon you get about 4 load screens: load into gateway, load into dungeon, load back into gateway (if same party for entire train), and back to lobby

In server: each dungeon only contributes 2: windstride to location, load into dungeon (can windstride directly to next dungeon after boss dies)

 

Not to mention F8 is very short-sighted since you're stuck waiting for people to join your party or for someone who's better "recruit bait" to recruit for the dungeon you need with nothing else to do that doesn't include alt-tabbing until you're able to enter. Meanwhile if I was doing the same thing in server I could farm solo dungeons or go fishing until I have people.

 

I was doing an Ice Box run earlier with a party that only seemed to be doing it in server as long as someone was super fast at getting to each dungeon, about halfway through half the party was like "quick, F8 now" almost like they were just flat out rejecting an optimal run.

 

Similarly I've lost track of how many MSP runs I've seen slowed down all because of people leaving Elder Woodfiends up because "Turtle up", resulting in having to manually clear more Moonlight Monstrosities (ideally you only have to do this 3 times at the beginning)

[Jirama]

Maybe if there were less people like you, we would have more new players and more people people doing weeklies? Duh

 

omg where’s hyunkel?

Edited August 22, 2020 by Jirama

[Nemises]

Can we agree, that being toxic is a harmfull behavior against others?

 

Experience: Why do people feel offended by this requirement? There has always been a difference between learing runs, in which people expect to die several times, and farm runs, in which people expect to efficently farm (without dieing several times). So far I haven't seen any "learn runs" in F8 for a long time, people tend to do learn runs with already known friends.

 

Link the achievement: This one is useless in dungeons. Even with showing the achievement you still don't know if a person has been carried through the dungeon several times or has experience in doing mechs/surviving. Furthermore it's useless for alts, that haven't visited the dungeon yet, where the main already has 100+ runs.

 

AP requirements: It's people's choice, whom to group up with. This is called free decision, which is triggered by the person itself and the environment. However the developers (who have massive influence on the ingame environment) have done their part to encourage players to request a ridicoulus amount of ap.

 

Anyways I don't see any harm of other people, although you can call some situations dumb behaviour.

 

Toxic people intentionally burn you before reaching the boss room.

Toxic people don't criticize you for dealing "no damage", they insult you.

Toxic people don't criticize you for failing a mech, they insult you.

Toxic people blame others for their own failures.

Toxic people intentionally do something to wipe the party.

[KzE]

Speedrunning dungeons was never about beeing optimal. This part is the elitism.

Supporting the malicious progression system of the game, what hurts most of the new or returning ppl... we can call this toxicism.

 

 

[Nemises]

1 hour ago, KzE said:

Speedrunning dungeons was never about beeing optimal.

You want to tell us, that speedruns aren't about optimizing the time to spend in a dungeon?

2 hours ago, KzE said:

Supporting the malicious progression system of the game, what hurts most of the new or returning ppl... we can call this toxicism.

Well, what's the way not to support the malicious progression system, not to progress in these systems? Not to pay for these systems?

[KzE]

10 minutes ago, Nemises said:

You want to tell us, that speedruns aren't about optimizing the time to spend in a dungeon?

Speedruns are about maximization. You want to have 6 ppl with max AP to beat the clock or leaderboard.

Optimizing would be to duo with your high AP friend (if you high AP) and either duo it (or solo if you high AP) or just hit LFP for a second then apply without waiting and bringing in what you get there. No point to cherrypick 3 minute from players to save 30 sec on boss, when the 90% of dungeon time is running.

 

16 minutes ago, Nemises said:

Well, what's the way not to support the malicious progression system, not to progress in these systems? Not to pay for these systems?

Most likely by not forcing people to either quit or spend money by making irreal expectations.

[Nemises]

9 minutes ago, KzE said:

Speedruns are about maximization. You want to have 6 ppl with max AP to beat the clock or leaderboard.

Optimizing would be to duo with your high AP friend (if you high AP) and either duo it (or solo if you high AP)

In duo or solo runs you're about to maximize the loot. It's just another parameter in the system. Opimization is the operation to maximize/minimize one or different parameters in a system, maybe we can agree about this. Sadly nowadays many people just want to optimize their progression in a way, that they're minimizing the social aspect of mmorpg gaming. The ongoing monetization of everything ingame in combination with lowering the progression by playing makes the social aspect even worse (developers manly reacting to shareholder interests).

54 minutes ago, KzE said:

No point to cherrypick 3 minute from players to save 30 sec on boss, when the 90% of dungeon time is running.

If I see the party leader acting like this, while the dungeon is doable, I'm leaving the lobby. A cherrypick can be a successfull strategy, however I personally don't see a reason to cherrypick except for hardmode or long term farm runs, for normal mode dailies it is just a waste of time.