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ARC-1276

Balance your darn game

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ARC-1276   

For the past two days, I've fought almost exclusively three classes: BD, KFM, and Archer. I've also almost exclusively fought them using three classes: Warden, FM, and SF.

 

In almost every case, Archer was the most broken and overpowered out of the three. They are genuinely the most irritating and frustrating thing I've ever had to play against, and I've been playing a lot of video games lately. Archers stun go off almost instantly, and they can be anywhere on the map at any time. You might as well name them "Teleporting Archer," considering how they just disappear and reappear on the other side of the map and that's no exaggeration. They almost always just run away the second you use any buff, and come back in with their infinite dashes and dodges, constantly iframing while spewing damage out mindlessly. Their damage output is enough to wipe out your health poor in a matter of seconds, and that's outside of their instant death air combo.  The result of an insanely fast, highly damaging class that can be effectively invincible: frustration. Even fellow players in the arena agree with me on how busted Archer is, going so far as to say that they don't have any bad matchups except maybe BD.

 

This takes me to BD. The class gets three bubbles (5 secs 5 hit invul or something akin to it) and that's on top of their side steps and backstep. They also heal a lot but, what doesn't anymore? Their damage output with doing anything is through the roof, to the point where I don't think they're even trying to force an escape skill anymore. Their five-point Daze goes off instantly and even if you block it with say, an FM, you're still going to get dazed. If you don't, you get instantly aired. This means that they don't have to particularly try to tech chase, just use that skill the second someone uses F roll and you can basically end the fight with Lightning Draw. Even worse than that is the BDs who know their damage output is insane, will go for this quick and cheap combo, and then spend the whole game waiting for the timer to end.

 

KFM, it says it's "expert difficulty." Then why can people get into gold with their UI closed? I know, I've done it. I couldn't see my CDs, but that didn't matter. Fire KFM deals so much damage that I, again, don't think KFMs are bothering with combos anymore. Just simply air someone, use 4 when they're about to hit the ground, Q/E to triple kick and whale on them. If they don't do anything just keep stunning them because you're going to kill them in a matter of seconds anyway. Now let's talk about Evade. It's been a feature of KFM for a very long time that when you iframe three attacks with Q/E you get a 100% Evade for about 3 seconds or something, making it theoretically possible to win a match without using Counter (which I know because I did it before, several times). Honestly, the only thing I would change about this class would be to do away with the Evade, and hamper its damage a fair bit.

 

This leads to suggested fixes and all of them are fairly straight forward, all you have to do is remove an iframe from BD and nerf its damage so air combos aren't effectively instant kills. KFMs need to have less accident forgiveness and they need to lose the Evade stat when in the Arena. There's a reason why passive status effects weren't ever placed in here and KFM being allowed to bring that in allows for instances where you're about to tech chase a KFM or slip a cheeky stun, but they evade it and now you're on the back foot. My suggested fix for Archer would be to just simply scrap it. The class is so fundamentally broken that I would've never released it in the first place. The fix for Archer would involve removing or nerfing its infinite dodges, its damage output would have to be adjusted so it's only very damaging at about half range (to represent the loss of momentum and force after an arrow is fired). Its stun would have to be a close-range attack, and it should lose the buff that allows it to shoot through defenses. It should also gain a static block that defaults to either build to make up for its nerfed movement because as of right now, it has more mobility than a class with actual grappling hooks. Who knows, maybe even do something else where they don't fire this instant kill arrow after making you airborne, or maybe even make it fire special arrows that create things like slowness or DoT, or a spot on the ground that constantly stuns their opponent. Maybe even have it so the Archer gets in close, jabs something into its opponent and back away to fire a bunch of arrows and have that something stun the opponent again after they're hit enough times like Searing Palm. Just something that makes it require more skill and forces the Archer to engage the opponent, rather than kiting so far that they're about to run out of air to float with. 

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sojaa   

Remove an i frame when everything has immunity to our ccs .Fatal blade lmfao dont get hit with it. Its a long animation and its not aoe based. If bd can get that off on you then u do need to practice. As a wind bd I dont not feel fatal is a threat at all. We have been nerfed so hard since start. Maelstrom gone 3 sec immunity to dmg gone. f counter break gone. Spin does nothing for any class with an immunity to cc. Wind air nerfed. i frames being not resettable. Spin req chi when every other class like kfm can just press counter over and over again.  Almost every bd is gone to pve only. cept for 1s

 

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On 8/7/2020 at 1:06 PM, ARC-1276 said:

In almost every case, Archer was the most brokenand overpowered

Sorry Archer is not the most broken you just have to know how to beat them. For example they do a charge for this super long shot. They are stunable if they charge also they constantly attack which also means they constantly hit into blocks making it hard for archer to beat Block classes. Another thing is they have an iframe where they stay still and a circle is around them. You can time it and stun them right after this.

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and they can be anywhere on the map at any time.

Its a mobile class after all. Assasin for example is way faster.

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Even fellow players in the arena agree with me on how busted Archer is, going so far as to say that they don't have any bad matchups except maybe BD.

Dont get me wrong Archer is super strong and its probably one of the strongest but there are actual bad matchups for them too. KFM and Soul fighter are bad matchups for archer definetly cause archer 24/7 shoots which hits into the block.

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This takes me to BD. The class gets three bubbles (5 secs 5 hit invul or something akin to it) and that's on top of their side steps and backstep.

This time i have to agree. Alot of high ranked players consider BD to be the strongest class currently (personally i would bring BD in top 3 but not strongest). Everytime you might be able to KD them they have a shield up and if you manage to waste their tab you will not be able to stun them cause you have cooldowns on ur stuff while the BD will have his shields up again when you get ur cd back.

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Their damage output with doing anything is through the roof, to the point where I don't think they're even trying to force an escape skill anymore.

Their DMG is to much for what they can do yeah but i think we are talking about 6v6 specificly in this point just look at what kind of defence they have. Its totally justified. While 3 shields aka 5 sec is way to much for a class in 1v1 its not enough in 6v6 if you dont have a good block aswell which BD dosent have.

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KFM, it says it's "expert difficulty." Then why can people get into gold with their UI closed? I know, I've done it. I couldn't see my CDs, but that didn't matter. Fire KFM deals so much damage that I, again, don't think KFMs are bothering with combos anymore.

If you are above 1600 you will need to combo cause even if KFM can do 30K in 1 attack they cant instantly kill u and also the enemy will evade most of ur stuff which is making it hard as KFM. KFM need to stun lock you otherwise they will waste most of their dmg. To be honest in my oppinion KFM is one of the most balanced classes in this game. Not to weak but not to strong either the only thing which makes it broken in 6v6 is the resists gems which give you up to 3 sec immunity after an evade considering the Cooldown of Iframe are like 6 sec and KFM got 3 iframes its unkillable if its not a 1v1 fight or your team is super inteligent and dont attack them.  (1824 on my KFM in 1v1 just to show i know what i am talking about)

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This leads to suggested fixes and all of them are fairly straight forward, all you have to do is remove an iframe from BD and nerf its damage so air combos aren't effectively instant kills.

Here we are definetly talking about 6v6. Like i said in 6v6 3 shields are nothing they are bursted down immediatly so no nerve needed here. DMG if fine too if you are not like incenarator 3 player. In 1v1 its another story the shields definetly need a higher cooldown so your stuns and KD are up before their shields are up again. As a main Soul fighter i do understand all the BDs complaining in 6v6 about not having alot of survivability. I have a block atleast but if the enemy is not attacking into my block i am *** aswell what are BDs supposed to do ?

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KFMs need to have less accident forgiveness and they need to lose the Evade stat when in the Arena.

No they dont ! That would make them useless. From even reading that i can assume you probably struggle even in 1600 rating against your enemys or am i wrong ? They get the evade when you hit right into their iframes which can be easily countered by simply not hitting into their iframes. Its not like Assasin where they get 90% randoom evade in stealth making it litterly impossible to fight back in high elo. You need to also consider what would be left of the class and be fair to the class even if its not your own main class they do need some things so instead of removing stuff think about of it could be changed and still be usefull.

 

Thats also why i ask for higher cd on BD shields instead of removing it.

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The fix for Archer would involve removing or nerfing its infinite dodges,

Simply reduce the effect of their iframe so there is a small time frame after every iframe where you can stun him. Soul fighter is the same we have tons of iframe (still not as much as bm) but soul fighter needs to correctly time their iframe and can be stunned mid iframe.

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Its stun would have to be a close-range attack, and it should lose the buff that allows it to shoot through defenses.

Considering this class jumps all the time the difficulty to get a melee stun would be to hard. You want to make Archer the new warlock ?

 

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ARC-1276   
On 8/10/2020 at 11:39 PM, ImoutoMaster said:

Sorry Archer is not the most broken you just have to know how to beat them. For example they do a charge for this super long shot. They are stunable if they charge also they constantly attack which also means they constantly hit into blocks making it hard for archer to beat Block classes. Another thing is they have an iframe where they stay still and a circle is around them. You can time it and stun them right after this.

Its a mobile class after all. Assasin for example is way faster.

Dont get me wrong Archer is super strong and its probably one of the strongest but there are actual bad matchups for them too. KFM and Soul fighter are bad matchups for archer definetly cause archer 24/7 shoots which hits into the block.

Knowing how to beat them means nothing if the only way to beat them is to play perfectly. The gaps between their iframes, if it exists at all, is too short to be taken advantage of. While assassin is a fast class, I doubt it can be consistently impossible to reach like Archer. The class as it stands is constantly running away, engaging when its iframes are up, and doing insane amounts of damage and quickly, forcing anyone who's playing to go on the defensive before they run off again and wait for their cooldowns. Because of their mobility, this strategy is not only viable but is guaranteed to win every match. Maybe Archer might have to play more defensive against a KFM, but they will always be able to outpace you at every turn.

 

So yes, let's make Archer "more like a WL" which is actually the real Archer. I was suggesting my fixes based on how real Archers fight. They would be more akin to the SF's ranged stance rather than a WL.

 

On 8/10/2020 at 11:39 PM, ImoutoMaster said:

If you are above 1600 you will need to combo cause even if KFM can do 30K in 1 attack they cant instantly kill u and also the enemy will evade most of ur stuff which is making it hard as KFM. KFM need to stun lock you otherwise they will waste most of their dmg. To be honest in my oppinion KFM is one of the most balanced classes in this game. Not to weak but not to strong either the only thing which makes it broken in 6v6 is the resists gems which give you up to 3 sec immunity after an evade considering the Cooldown of Iframe are like 6 sec and KFM got 3 iframes its unkillable if its not a 1v1 fight or your team is super inteligent and dont attack them.  (1824 on my KFM in 1v1 just to show i know what i am talking about)

No they dont ! That would make them useless. From even reading that i can assume you probably struggle even in 1600 rating against your enemys or am i wrong ? They get the evade when you hit right into their iframes which can be easily countered by simply not hitting into their iframes. Its not like Assasin where they get 90% randoom evade in stealth making it litterly impossible to fight back in high elo. You need to also consider what would be left of the class and be fair to the class even if its not your own main class they do need some things so instead of removing stuff think about of it could be changed and still be usefull.

 

 

KFM, is overpowered. The Evade isn't their primary, let alone their secondary defensive ability, it's a passive effect that rewards them for using their secondary, and given how long the KFM's iframes last, it's going to go off. The second they use Tremor, they will also get it off (or at least I think that's the case). There were many situations where a KFM would mess up and leave their backs exposed for a counter-attack, but the stun doesn't go off because they "evade" it. This isn't a problem in 1600s as those KFMs are there just because they're on KFM. This is a problem at just about every ranking. Don't know about 1800s+ because I'm not a masochist and there are better games to be playing than BnS, but I know it's not going to get any better and my complaint about the class will remain the same. I'm not suggesting a complete rework like Archer, all I'm suggesting is that they maybe tone down the damage output and remove the evade because the evade stat has always been busted on KFM.

 

Again, I've played the class before, if I wanted to, I could probably out-compete all my other classes overnight using it. KFM really is that easy. I only exclusively play 1v1, btw for the sole reason that 6v6 is a joke.

 

 

I'm perfectly fine with your BD take, as just about anyone playing arena would know just how cancer that class is, and how frustrating just trying to stun it can be.

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ARC-1276   
On 8/9/2020 at 11:29 PM, sojaa said:

Remove an i frame when everything has immunity to our ccs .Fatal blade lmfao dont get hit with it. Its a long animation and its not aoe based. If bd can get that off on you then u do need to practice. As a wind bd I dont not feel fatal is a threat at all. We have been nerfed so hard since start. Maelstrom gone 3 sec immunity to dmg gone. f counter break gone. Spin does nothing for any class with an immunity to cc. Wind air nerfed. i frames being not resettable. Spin req chi when every other class like kfm can just press counter over and over again.  Almost every bd is gone to pve only. cept for 1s

 

I don't need practice because that's not the problem, let alone the reason for me saying the class is broken. No BD worth his salt uses that move in the arena. The problem with BD is its raw offensive power with instant casting daze/air, its ability to stun you while blocking, the bugs around Phantom Grip that prevent you from escaping without using Tab, and the amount of times it can use its most damaging PVE move without worry. Good luck stunning it, as its constant spinning will prevent that from happening, and good luck landing a KD on it because its iframes and the desyncs will be sure to screw you over at every possible turn, assuming it's even in range to be KD in the first place as every BD runs off and waits for CDs.

 

Perhaps its just because you're a wind BD, and most (if not all) BDs uses Lightning in the arena.

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Tufa   

we could argue all day about WHERE the imbalance is, but I think we would all agree that the game is not balanced and in major need of a revamp.

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vor 11 Stunden schrieb Tufa:

we could argue all day about WHERE the imbalance is, but I think we would all agree that the game is not balanced and in major need of a revamp.

it dosent need a revamp just some lil changes to most classes. A revamp would be more like pre awakening to awakening which was the worst patch for PVP since this game exists. 

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ARC-1276   
On 8/12/2020 at 11:04 PM, ImoutoMaster said:

it dosent need a revamp just some lil changes to most classes. A revamp would be more like pre awakening to awakening which was the worst patch for PVP since this game exists. 

So undo the Awakening patch. That seems to be where all the problems sprouted out from.

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vor 5 Stunden schrieb ARC-1276:

So undo the Awakening patch. That seems to be where all the problems sprouted out from.

Most yeah but its far to late for that.

 

1. there is no way they do 2 builds 1 for pvp (pre awakening) and one for pve (awakening)

2. There are classes which got released after awakening so they cant get to a pre awakening patch

3. its less work to just adjust the classes slightly and remove third specs from PVP till all classes have one.

 

For example third fm would be fine if their tab walk godmode skill had cooldown.

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ARC-1276   
On 9/27/2020 at 11:52 PM, ImoutoMaster said:

Most yeah but its far to late for that.

 

1. there is no way they do 2 builds 1 for pvp (pre awakening) and one for pve (awakening)

2. There are classes which got released after awakening so they cant get to a pre awakening patch

3. its less work to just adjust the classes slightly and remove third specs from PVP till all classes have one.

 

For example third fm would be fine if their tab walk godmode skill had cooldown.

It technically does, as you can use it for a limited time before you have to recharge. But I see where you're coming from since it's just cancer to deal with.

 

 

At this point, I'm convinced the real problem comes from the amount of damage everything does now. You just won't survive anything anymore. BMs eat chunks of your health without even stunning you, KFMs kill you just be existing, Des press the big shiny button and your FPS dies, GS have always been over damaging, Archers can one-shot you, and now Astromancer does stupid amounts of damage with just 2 buttons. This isn't even a comprehensive list either, there's still SF and Sin to worry about.

 

Meanwhile, classes like FM and BD have to work hard to get their insane damage output unless the FM is using Lightning or Fire (both of which are better for PVE anyway).

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vor 4 Stunden schrieb ARC-1276:

It technically does, as you can use it for a limited time before you have to recharge. But I see where you're coming from since it's just cancer to deal with.

There are addons like auto recharge which gives FM nearly all the time enough charges. I do know the requirements for the walk its still to easy to spam it in my oppinion. It should have a cd in a whole like i wrote so FM actully needs to use its Q and E like any other class.

Zitat

At this point, I'm convinced the real problem comes from the amount of damage everything does now.

I dont think so. There are very few things that could kill you with one or 2 attacks. If you are able to tab escape thats not to much dmg. Problem is more that there are certain skills which do not have a counter play ingame for all classes or most classes.

 

Examples:

Destroyer shield cannot be countered unless you play FM or BD to grab.

Assasin Tab Stance does have 5 hit i know but their evade paired with it plus "decoy" skill which is usable even in that form remove any kind of counterplay

 

There are alot of other classes and stuff which dosent have counterplay.

 

The problem is there are to much skills you simply cannot fight against all you can do is try to evade them which is sometimes super hard. Back in lvl 50 there was nothing without counterplay. You could outplay your opponent no matter what stratagy he or she does. This is the time most PVP Players want back.

 

Zitat

You just won't survive anything anymore.

Like i said there are very few things you cannot surive like FM fire aerial but if you get hit from stuff like this its your own fault.

Zitat

BMs eat chunks of your health without even stunning you

Easy solution make them targatable again like i dont know who thought this class needs untargatable while having 2 tabs. It was never really weak it was always mid tier but thanks to 2 tabs and untargatable its top tier now. (Worst of the top tier thou)

Zitat

KFMs kill you just be existing

You know how to PVP ? This class is the most mid tier class you can think of and even in 6v6 it can be countered pretty easily just dont attack 24/7.

 

Zitat

GS have always been over damaging

But again here the excuse is they are glass cannons they dont have much defences. So in my oppinion its fine.

Zitat

Archers can one-shot you

With Wind but agian its your fault if they kill you like that they are a glass canon on wind.

Zitat

and now Astromancer does stupid amounts of damage with just 2 buttons.

Cant say much about them but they do alot of dmg thats for sure. My oppionion is pretty basic they do massive dmg but their animations are super big and long which makes it easy to evade their attacks. Also they dont seem to have that much resist stuff. Personally a BM for example is much stronger and this class keeps getting buffed aswell for some reason. So Astro is fine in my oppinion.

Zitat

This isn't even a comprehensive list either, there's still SF and Sin to worry about.

Whats wrong about SF ? they have iframes wow. SF is litterly the most predictable class in this game. Also their dmg is pretty medicore if you play with brain against them. Just wait out their iframes and attack if you cant do that your fault they dont have any single resist ability aside from a 5 hit iframe. C godmode skill needs 2 sec animation, dosent heal a single HP and only lasts 5 seconds. If a sf can use C godmode against you and use it in a usefull way its also your fault cause of the animation time its pretty useless for sf in most cases.

Zitat

Meanwhile, classes like FM and BD have to work hard to get their insane damage output

Seriously how much PVP do you play ? work hard ? FM needs to throw you at wall once and does up to 80k dmg. BD needs to aerial you once (which is super easy as BD) after that they can litterly ignore ground counters since they have thousands of skills to break it and simply pve. There is a reason BD is considered strongest class currently.

 

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