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NorbertTheOpinionated

I can't remember all dungeon mechanics

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Posted (edited)

http://imgbox.com/5c0GpxkF

 

A typical B&S boss fight depicted above.

 

1 player's feedback for NCsoft:

 

Honestly, this game is too complicated. (I am specifically talking about PVE dungeons and raids) I can't remember all the dungeon mechanics anymore, nor do I even want to. Memorizing a ton of stupid boss dances isn't "fun."

 

Also, the bosses are getting worse and worse. There are more and more bosses that have attacks that are just, "You die." No, you can't block it. No, you can't I-frame to resist it. It doesn't matter if you are HM 35 or HM 12. It doesn't matter if you are at gear cap, or just got to end game. It doesn't matter if you stacked for defense. You got touched by this? You're dead. Doesn't matter what you've got. Do this little dance and do it right, or you're dead... period. I don't like this design.

 

Avoiding a bunch of 1 shot mechanics, dancing around while playing Simon-says isn't fun. ESPECIALLY when it requires multiple people in the party to do it right, or you wipe because SOMEONE is going to mess up, and then you lose because someone else doesn't know what they are doing.

 

Also, it always works differently:

Dungeon: Stand here, or die.

Next dungeon: Don't stand here, or die.

Next dungeon: Jump, or die.

Next dungeon: Don't jump, or die.

Next dungeon: Tab escape, or die.

Next dungeon: Don't tab escape till later, or die.

Etc. : Learn our mechanics. Always do them right. Don't forget, or you lose instantly. Doesn't matter how geared you are. It is not forgiving at all. Easy mode isn't easy. All we have is "hard," and "ultra hard" where there are even MORE 1 shot mechanics.

 

Personally, I don't like this design at all. Please make it less complicated, and more forgiving of mistakes! Maybe a slowed down tutorial mode in the HM training room, that lets you do mech from various roles? That is my feedback for whatever it is worth, which I would hope would be at least a bit more these days since we only have... what? 4000 players left?

 

 

Edited by NorbertTheOpinionated
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Asuramon   

Friend, what are you on about? BnS  has one of the simplest Pve content out there, you can learn the entire fights 100-0 because everything is on a rotation or health percentage. Bosses will never do anything out of order that can't be predicted. Easy mode dungeons especially need even less than that.

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Dezra   

Lol, why would you even expect a treasure chest to attack you especially if it doesn't have arms or legs.

Look at how many players are in one area in BDO and the players can function smoothly spamming all those particle effects.

BNS has some bad optimization like single digit fps on raid boss so doing mechanics is going to be harder in general because some players will have even worse computers. 

BNS is all about grinding dungeons over and over so theres no point making the boss mechanics too unique otherwise its even more frustrating. They cant be too creative because the game's optimization restricts many things and will make many players experience of this game horrible so they just do very straight forward mechanics for now. You need to hope the UE4 overhaul is going to happen and really opens up the full potential this game can offer if NCSOFT decides this game is worth pouring resources into considering its low revenues each quarter with profits going into mobile games. 

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Grimoir   

i like mechanics in dungeons but, i do think some dungeon mechanics in BnS are a bit....overused  and far to i would say "static", still fun tho, but idk, like i really enjoyed the mechanics in desolate tomb, naruy foundry, but as of late the new dungeon mechanics just feel so..."stiff". Like i literally hate the mechanics in Warped citadel, they aren't fun for me, just outright annoying. I generally dislike the entire soul seperation mechanics all together. But thats just me i know there are others who enjoy those.

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Edensia   

All of this wouldnt be a problem if we got the same modes as Korea.. Beginner, Normal, Hard.

 

But we got this stupid easymode (which is some kind of broken normal mode) and hardmode.

 

I still hope we get the same as Korea someday

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You don't have to do any mechs in easy mode, how is this too hard? In most dungeons you actually force the boss to do his "wipe" mech, which doesn't wipe, so you can braidead DPS the boss down faster. Only the tank has to do a bit more in some dungeons, but these are easy things as well. 

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Posted (edited)
18 hours ago, RyVerseLy said:

You don't have to do any mechs in easy mode, how is this too hard? In most dungeons you actually force the boss to do his "wipe" mech, which doesn't wipe, so you can braidead DPS the boss down faster. Only the tank has to do a bit more in some dungeons, but these are easy things as well. 

 

You don't have to do any mechs in easy mode? Of course you do. I have to disagree. In easy mode, in Dreamsong Theater, if you can't burst the first boss down - you have to do mech. He will wipe the party. How about the next boss? Same. How about Master Hong? Can a person just stand in the persistent death zones and they don't affect them? How about den of the ancients if a person doesn't have the gear to cheese it, they have to do mech. Warped Citadel has insta-death zones too. Hall of the Templar has an insta death mechanic too. So does Throne of Oblivion. The light/shadow gauge can't just be ignored. Botany Center has instant death mechanics too. In Temple of Eluvium, if you get too many hits from the stone guys, you die instantly. If you get too many stacks from the Acrimores... dead. If you don't CC Zulia together she wipes the party. I think the Raven King, and the 2 generals can 1 shot you if you get accidentally knocked into the wrong area too. I am sure there are more, not that I do Scarlet Conservatory or anything. Outlaw island - look away from the flares, or instant death. Brood Chamber has one too. Sure it is easy to just jump to avoid it, but, there are LOTS of instant death mechanics in B&S, and if you forget one... you're dead. There are so many, it is easy to forget one.

 

Not that anyone has suggested it, but if anyone thinks, "Well you just need enough DPS to burst through the enemy so fast that they don't even get to do anything so that you don't have to do mech," then that isn't actually suggesting anyone "get better." That is suggesting that everyone either grind harder to the point where they overlevel the challenge to the point that the challenge is trivial, or pay NCsoft more money. That's not the same thing as "getting good" at all.

 

My complaint is not that there ARE mechanics. My complaint is that instant death mechanics are too heavy handed, and NCsoft should stop using them. Instant death mechanics are not fun design in my opinion. I would prefer if these attacks just did X amount of damage. Maybe that would kill most people, but if you are powerful enough, you can just take it. Another good alternative would be to replace the instant death mechanics with a having the attack do X% of your life in damage, which would guarantee it to always be punishing, no matter how powerful you are, but is more forgiving in easy mode because it doesn't just kill you. As for the persistent death zones, maybe they just tick for 10-15% of your life in damage per second. Get out quick or you will die, but at least you have a chance. I feel like that would be more fun.

 

I don't care if an instant death move is easy to avoid in one person's opinion. NCsoft shouldn't be using them at all, at least not in easy mode dungeons. That's just my vote.

 

Edited by NorbertTheOpinionated

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Arohk   
8 minutes ago, NorbertTheOpinionated said:

 

You don't have to do any mechs in easy mode? Of course you do. I have to disagree. In easy mode, in Dreamsong Theater, if you can't burst the first boss down - you have to do mech. He will wipe the party. re fun.

Run in your circle> wait for people> SS to next circle > repeat,

 

wow such hard mech to remember.

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Posted (edited)
24 minutes ago, Arohk said:

Run in your circle> wait for people> SS to next circle > repeat,

 

wow such hard mech to remember.

It is harder than that. It requires pretty good timing, and if someone doesn't know it to tab escape at the right time, it wipes you even if you knew what to do. Also, that's not the point. The point made was that there aren't any mech in easy mode that you have to pay attention to, which is simply incorrect, especially depending on gear level. I gave a big list of examples. There are more of them than I even gave.

Edited by NorbertTheOpinionated

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Arohk   

Your disability to remember mechanics or execute them is not the games fault though.

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Let's put it this way:

 

If none of those instant death mechanics or near instant death mechanics did not exist, game would be not worth playing. Why? Because there would be 0% chance of death every single time. That's no fun. The chance of death in every dungeon is the exact reason you do the dungeon and you try mitigate that chance with skill and mech knowledge and class knowledge, making it fun.

 

It would be the same thing if you went to Dark Souls and you couldn't die there. You play Dark Souls exactly because you can die at any time for 250 times in a row. The chance of death or fail is the only reason you play most games.

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Arohk   
4 minutes ago, Amarathiel said:

Let's put it this way:#

If none of those instant death mechanics or near instant death mechanics did not exist, game would be not worth playing.

exactly, without the chance of failure, there is no point in winning.

It was a lot better before easy mode, when yo had to do the mechanics even in normal mode, now its all so braindead easy, and people never learn the mechanics for hardmode.

 

If you want to critizice the paytowin or lack of balance in PvP i am on your side, but there is nothing wrong with PvE content (beside that it got all dumbed down) just practice and learn.#

There is not only gear progression but also player progression.

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36 minutes ago, Amarathiel said:

Let's put it this way:

 

If none of those instant death mechanics or near instant death mechanics did not exist, game would be not worth playing. Why? Because there would be 0% chance of death every single time. That's no fun. The chance of death in every dungeon is the exact reason you do the dungeon and you try mitigate that chance with skill and mech knowledge and class knowledge, making it fun.

 

It would be the same thing if you went to Dark Souls and you couldn't die there. You play Dark Souls exactly because you can die at any time for 250 times in a row. The chance of death or fail is the only reason you play most games.

I am not going to disagree with the core concept that if you can't fail, then it wouldn't be fun. However I will disagree that we need instant death mechanics to accomplish this. You don't need instant death mechanics in order for there to be a skill requirement which must be met otherwise failure. Instant death mechanics are not the only thing that can kill people. As I said before, NCsoft could have the boss just hit for a certain amount of damage. It won't one shot you, but if you get hit, say... 5 times, then if the hit causes about 20% of your life in damage per hit (depending on your gear), if you mess up too much, THEN, yes, a person can die, and thus fail, but it is at least more forgiving.

 

Another way to do it is to have the attack do X% of your life in damage per hit instead of 100%. Another way is to have the the poison or insta death zones do X% of your life in damage per second that you stand in them. You have to move fast, but it is, at least somewhat forgiving. I wouldn't actually recommend bosses attacks hitting for X% damage though because if the boss hits for 15% of your life in damage no matter how powerful you are, then... why have levels? Why have gear? It wouldn't matter how good your gear is. 15% is 15% no matter who you are. You can only take 15% six times. The seventh hit will kill you (unless there is recovery in there somewhere of course). For this same reason, instant death is bad because if you think X% life damage attacks are heavy handed, instant death is even MORE heavy handed.

 

Not that I am a whale, but if a person is a whale, then they paid for all this power, and the boss says, "That's nice that you have all that defense, and boss defense, and HP and evasion, and parry, and block and stuff, but NONE of that stuff actually matters at all because INSTANT DEATH!!! YER GONE! NCsoft put all these mechanics in the game... and then bypassed all of them. BAD! Bad game design! No biscuit!

 

Now... instant death despite all that power is not what the whale paid for. Part of me says, "Serves them right! Feel my pain!" But no... that's not right. The fact that NCsoft is having to resort to instant death mechanics as their go-to way to force compliance to mech, and even then it doesn't work a lot of the times just goes to show how completely out of control the difference between a powerful player and a weaker player in B&S actually is. Now consider that the powerful player, and the weaker player are both in the same dungeon together. If the dungeon is powerful enough to challenge the more powerful player, then the weaker player has no chance unless they are just going to get carried. If the weaker player is challenged, but can accomplish it, the more powerful player will trivialize it. This disparity in power is a balance problem that is NCsoft's making. Who's game is it? Who's design is it? I'm looking at you NCsoft.

 

Again the way to solve this would be to have your attacks do X% damage to the boss, and or the boss to do X% damage to you per hit, and you heal for X% life when you do your life-leach attacks and such, but then why have gear? You see the problem? Then NCsoft resorting to, "Well... do X or you're dead" is a VERY crude, inelegant, heavy handed, blunt, draconian instrument to deal with it.

 

I am also not suggesting that there never be any insta death mechanics at all. That is probably how I would prefer it in most cases, but I feel that it would be better to isolate the insta-death stuff to hard mode. Here is why: consider that we are down to 1 server here in NA. Now think about this: How good are most people at video games? Most people are really pretty bad at games right? Ok. Now consider the level of skill B&S requires towards the end. Compare the average skill level of most gamers to what B&S demands... or you die instantly. Do you see how most people aren't good enough to play Blade and Soul?

 

Now you might say, "Well they need to get good." Well see here is the problem with that. They aren't going to. They are just going to quit. Some people might say, "Good! Get out! QUIT! Uninstall Noob!" No... that is what has already happened, and now we are down to 1 server, and NCsoft could pull the plug on B&S in NA because we only have several thousand concurrent players anymore, and if that happens, you don't have a fun game to play anymore, and all that time and effort invested... gone. Therefore, we don't need to be thinking that way.

 

You might think, "Well they just need to slam their head into the wall enough times, and they will eventually learn." Sure, some of them do, but most of them don't. I have seen this repeatedly in other games: Dungeon comes out. Requires a mechanic the player base isn't good at. Do the mechanic or you can't complete the dungeon and continue to progress. A large portion of the player base can't handle it. Company sticks to its guns. A year later, the dungeon still has a 85% failure rate every time it is tried. Players are mad. Company loses players, and thus money as well as the capacity to perpetuate the game. This is not good for the skilled players, the unskilled players, or the company. This is what multiple difficulty modes are for, but it is important to understand just how truly bad a huge portion of gamers are. I would recommend at least 3 difficulties. Easy (you probably can't fail) mode. Normal (We are going to hit you hard, and you might die, but no one shots). Hard mode (where the 1 shot stuff is). This would increase player retention, which would be good for the company, allowing them to pour more money into B&S, and perpetuate it better. I am not saying YOU have to play it on easy mode. I am saying the game would be able to keep more players, which keeps the game healthy if easy mode was actually easy.

 

Also, you have to consider why people are playing the game. Sure some people play it for the challenge. They like Dark Souls. Ok fine. To each, his own. Here is your hard mode, but please don't think it is right to force that on people who are here for roleplay, or fun, or to see the story or whatever. Some people like to play games for fun. Some people like to play games to get mad. It is a form of entertainment or "engagement" if you prefer. Some people like it - the people who climb a mountain because it is there, and if they see a mountain range they intentionally climb the higher mountain "because it is harder." That is fine, but if that is the ONLY thing a game offers, don't wonder why the population is so low, or why the company is having a hard time keeping the lights on.

 

Consider how the game is now. Think about what happens when you have a bunch of people who aren't good enough playing a game, and they hit that wall, and aren't good enough to progress, and it only gets harder from there? They aren't having fun anymore right? Why do a lot of people play games? To have fun right? Since they aren't getting what they want, sure some people "git gud," or pay, or just grind harder to trivialize the challenge, but a lot of people quit. Then NCsoft wonders, "Gee, why are we don't to only 1 server?" It's because the game is too hard for most people! (By the way, there are a LOT of other reasons that B&S doesn't have a higher population too. I know. I know. What is being discussed in this thread is only 1 of MANY problems.) The only people left at this point are the people who can do it, and NCsoft keeps making it harder! Stop making the dungeons harder, or at least isolate the real difficulty to hard mode! That is why there are different difficulty modes! Easy mode, as it is presently, is still WELL above the challenge level your average gamer can produce.

 

Do you realize that getting to hard cap in this game requires more dedication than getting a college degree? Or maybe about the same amount of money if you want to go that route. (That is an exaggeration... probably?) :giggle: 

 

 

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Arohk   
Posted (edited)

So your argument is basically:

 

Super mario is too hard, i can't remember what all teh items do and jumping over gaps is too difficult, i didn't pay to have to jump and die when i fall down.

Please Nintendo remove all the gaps from Super MArio.

Edited by Arohk

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Nemises   
Posted (edited)

Dear OP,

I think Hack'n'Slay games would suit you the best. No mechanics to remember, monsters mostly don't oneshot you.

If you want "the real easymode" then so shall it be. (I don't want to be rude with this sentence) But with your proposals a bot could make the daily train easily, for that the reward should only be the daily quest.

 

However if you get your easymode, I want to have a real hardmode.

 

- in that the action of every single player matters

- where a person gets a debuff after finishing a mechanic to prevent this person from doing it again for the party

- where persons are randomly chosen by the system to do certain mechanics (1 of 6, not 1 of 2 or the furthest or the nearest)

- where even the tank can be chosen to do mechanics and needs to be replaced for that time

- where the random phases matter again with a random attack pattern to react to

- without any indicators, only visuals actions and effects by the boss

- where a boss fight takes 10 minutes rather then 3min in a fully geared party

- without enrage timer -> if low geared ppl wanna do it, let them do it. They take even a higher risk, so their effort should be high rewarded

- where the mechanics become step by step harder to complete (90,60,30)

- where the boss drops 6 scales for sure

- where the drop chance is so good, that a 6 man party becomes a 100% equiped in 100 runs

Edited by Nemises

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KzE   

Is this an april 1st post?

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vor 8 Stunden schrieb NorbertTheOpinionated:

 

You don't have to do any mechs in easy mode? Of course you do. I have to disagree. In easy mode, in Dreamsong Theater, if you can't burst the first boss down - you have to do mech. He will wipe the party. How about the next boss? Same. How about Master Hong? Can a person just stand in the persistent death zones and they don't affect them? How about den of the ancients if a person doesn't have the gear to cheese it, they have to do mech. Warped Citadel has insta-death zones too. Hall of the Templar has an insta death mechanic too. So does Throne of Oblivion. The light/shadow gauge can't just be ignored. Botany Center has instant death mechanics too. In Temple of Eluvium, if you get too many hits from the stone guys, you die instantly. If you get too many stacks from the Acrimores... dead. If you don't CC Zulia together she wipes the party. I think the Raven King, and the 2 generals can 1 shot you if you get accidentally knocked into the wrong area too. I am sure there are more, not that I do Scarlet Conservatory or anything. Outlaw island - look away from the flares, or instant death. Brood Chamber has one too. Sure it is easy to just jump to avoid it, but, there are LOTS of instant death mechanics in B&S, and if you forget one... you're dead. There are so many, it is easy to forget one.

 

Not that anyone has suggested it, but if anyone thinks, "Well you just need enough DPS to burst through the enemy so fast that they don't even get to do anything so that you don't have to do mech," then that isn't actually suggesting anyone "get better." That is suggesting that everyone either grind harder to the point where they overlevel the challenge to the point that the challenge is trivial, or pay NCsoft more money. That's not the same thing as "getting good" at all.

 

My complaint is not that there ARE mechanics. My complaint is that instant death mechanics are too heavy handed, and NCsoft should stop using them. Instant death mechanics are not fun design in my opinion. I would prefer if these attacks just did X amount of damage. Maybe that would kill most people, but if you are powerful enough, you can just take it. Another good alternative would be to replace the instant death mechanics with a having the attack do X% of your life in damage, which would guarantee it to always be punishing, no matter how powerful you are, but is more forgiving in easy mode because it doesn't just kill you. As for the persistent death zones, maybe they just tick for 10-15% of your life in damage per second. Get out quick or you will die, but at least you have a chance. I feel like that would be more fun.

 

I don't care if an instant death move is easy to avoid in one person's opinion. NCsoft shouldn't be using them at all, at least not in easy mode dungeons. That's just my vote.

 

Oh this is what you call mechanics? :D Most of your examples are "don't stay in that dark or glowing, dangerous looking area mechs" lol.

- Tbh if someone isn't able to jump 1x in BC or jump 1-2x and get the right symbol in hall of the templar the death is justified xD
- If you try to be op and fight the VT stone adds alone with low DPS and don't wait for your group, it's your own fault. But no big deal at all anyways, just press 4 and get back to the group
- Acrimors do only damage nowadays. Back then they were hard and had one shot mechs, but they were nerfed to the ground

- If you do Hivequeen, most raid leaders even tell the group to stun
- If people in Throne of Oblivion can't stop their DPS for 10 seconds they deserve to wipe

- The Outlaw Island flares should be skippable even with storygear+raven 3
- Mao is basically running all the time around her and the only real mech is to destroy her shield, so you have to remember 2 colours for the cc

You know that almost everything you mentioned had at their release REAL mechanics? BC boss 1 for example? It was often really hard in F8 groups and nowadays it's just pewpew and DON'T block the orbs, so the boss go "enrage" and do like 10k dmg. They already nerfed everything to the ground and many oneshot mechs from back then now only do dmg. Basically the only mech left is "dont stay in/go away from areas" xD And they already removed many of them, for example BC boss 2 after the driving phase. And now the remaining 5% of mechs should also be removed? If they would only do dmg, you can pretty much ignore them.

Maybe you die one or two times in these areas, if you are new, but I think the next time you will be able to remember this and won't stay there again. Also you can always ask or watch a guide on youtube. (Sure most of them are outdated, because they contain the actual mechs, which are gone from Easymode.)
The only real problem is DST with a low DPS group, because people nowadays are just too bad to do the mechs, that we had to do a year ago always in every group. So nc should really nerf this, so they can just dps it without a carry. But everything else no. If you stay in these areas it's your own fault. Wait until the area is gone, use your reviving charm and learn from your mistake, whats the big deal?

Btw apparently you are really good in remembering all of NCsoft's mechs, if you can give that many examples, so you should be able to avoid them, or not? :D

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Easy mode is already braindead. Yes there is one dungeon (DST) where mechs are needed when party have low DPS, but in all other easy mode dungeons, you only need to know where to stand during attack rotation or phase and that is all.

 

How much more braindead dungeons needs to be? Boss just stand there like stone and do nothing all the time?

 

Many ppl are just lazy to learn mechs, that's the problem.

 

I'm average person with average brain and average memory and still can remeber all dungeons mechs even some old ones from dead dungeons.

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Le 2/4/2020 à 07:58, NorbertTheOpinionated a dit :

 

You don't have to do any mechs in easy mode? Of course you do. I have to disagree. In easy mode, in Dreamsong Theater, if you can't burst the first boss down - you have to do mech. He will wipe the party. How about the next boss? Same. How about Master Hong? Can a person just stand in the persistent death zones and they don't affect them? How about den of the ancients if a person doesn't have the gear to cheese it, they have to do mech. Warped Citadel has insta-death zones too. Hall of the Templar has an insta death mechanic too. So does Throne of Oblivion. The light/shadow gauge can't just be ignored. Botany Center has instant death mechanics too. In Temple of Eluvium, if you get too many hits from the stone guys, you die instantly. If you get too many stacks from the Acrimores... dead. If you don't CC Zulia together she wipes the party. I think the Raven King, and the 2 generals can 1 shot you if you get accidentally knocked into the wrong area too. I am sure there are more, not that I do Scarlet Conservatory or anything. Outlaw island - look away from the flares, or instant death. Brood Chamber has one too. Sure it is easy to just jump to avoid it, but, there are LOTS of instant death mechanics in B&S, and if you forget one... you're dead. There are so many, it is easy to forget one.

 

Not that anyone has suggested it, but if anyone thinks, "Well you just need enough DPS to burst through the enemy so fast that they don't even get to do anything so that you don't have to do mech," then that isn't actually suggesting anyone "get better." That is suggesting that everyone either grind harder to the point where they overlevel the challenge to the point that the challenge is trivial, or pay NCsoft more money. That's not the same thing as "getting good" at all.

 

My complaint is not that there ARE mechanics. My complaint is that instant death mechanics are too heavy handed, and NCsoft should stop using them. Instant death mechanics are not fun design in my opinion. I would prefer if these attacks just did X amount of damage. Maybe that would kill most people, but if you are powerful enough, you can just take it. Another good alternative would be to replace the instant death mechanics with a having the attack do X% of your life in damage, which would guarantee it to always be punishing, no matter how powerful you are, but is more forgiving in easy mode because it doesn't just kill you. As for the persistent death zones, maybe they just tick for 10-15% of your life in damage per second. Get out quick or you will die, but at least you have a chance. I feel like that would be more fun.

 

I don't care if an instant death move is easy to avoid in one person's opinion. NCsoft shouldn't be using them at all, at least not in easy mode dungeons. That's just my vote.

 

You talk about mechs in easy mode then mention hong mao throne VT BT and botany. None of those are EASY mode dungeon 2 ofthem are solo dungeons and 3 are raids. The insta death in WC isn't a mech its common sense "oh look theres an attack indicator and now there glowy ❤ ❤ ❤ ❤ lets go stand in it" is like rule 1 of what not to do in MMOs. DST boss 1 is probaly the only place you HAVE to do mechs or wipe and is the only good example then again now that everyone has TT gear if u can't burst it you have bigger issues

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On 4/3/2020 at 7:00 AM, Eclipse4598 said:

You talk about mechs in easy mode then mention hong mao throne VT BT and botany. None of those are EASY mode dungeon 2 ofthem are solo dungeons and 3 are raids. The insta death in WC isn't a mech its common sense "oh look theres an attack indicator and now there glowy ❤ ❤ ❤ ❤ lets go stand in it" is like rule 1 of what not to do in MMOs. DST boss 1 is probaly the only place you HAVE to do mechs or wipe and is the only good example then again now that everyone has TT gear if u can't burst it you have bigger issues

Cathedra Cliffs: 1st boss. Block the lines or wipe the whole party... on easy mode. Warped Citadel: Stay out of the instant death zone or you die on easy mode. (That won't wipe the whole party, but YOU will die if you don't do it.) Hangar 0 - 1st boss: Do tic tac toe with him, or wipe the whole party again... on easy mode.

 

DST boss 1 is probably the only place you have to pay attention to mechanics huh? Why are people saying there aren't instant death moves on easy mode? Then when I point out Dream Song Theater, they say, "Oh... well... ok so 1, but... excuses." No! More than 1. Also, pointing out that VT, BT, Botany, Hong, Mao, etc aren't easy mode dungeons doesn't invalidate my point either just because they aren't easy mode because it counts as a raid. By the way, also, let's not forget throne of oblivion. That has an instant wipe if you don't balance the light-dark gauge.

 

I don't approve of instant death mechanics unless it is part of something that is supposed to be real hard. I don't care if it is easy to avoid them. "It is easy to avoid them" isn't justification for them. You know what also isn't justification for them? "Just burst the boss down, so you don't have to deal with the mechanics." What if you are someone who is in the dungeon who actually SHOULD be in the dungeon? Do all of you people understand how hard these bosses are if you are a person who is the appropriate gear level to actually be fighting them? That is to say - you are in the dungeon, and you actually need the drops in the dungeon. For example: The soul shield pieces drop, and you actually put them on because it is an upgrade for you. You know - the people who the dungeon was actually meant for rather than the people who are just there to steam roll it in less than 10 minutes because it is part of a daily or something.

 

This "get good" mentality I see on this forum a lot is absurd. "Just burst it!" Bursting the boss down isn't "getting good." That doesn't have anything to do with skill. It is just getting geared enough that you don't have to "get good." "Just burst it" isn't a good answer. It is a functional answer, but not a "good" answer. The design of the game should be better such that you don't have to burst it.

 

Now onto my own post:

 

See this title? Den Master

 

https://puu.sh/FxaSg/2d943b3334.png

 

I am good enough to beat Mao, and I did it without TT gear. I am here advocating on behalf of the majority of people who either aren't good enough, don't have the time, or don't want to, and frankly... shouldn't have to. I have beat Mao, and even though I can do it, I am saying that boss is bad for the game. It is too hard. People shouldn't have to deal with nonsense like that. It is a game. It is supposed to be fun. Smashing my head against a wall for 4 days to learn to beat Mao isn't "fun." (Some classes have a harder time of it than others too by the way.) "Just pay NCsoft a bunch of money, and kill her in 30 sec! That will make it easier." No! That isn't the correct answer. "Just grind for a year and then overpower her in 30 seconds." NO! That isn't the correct answer either. "NCsoft offers an easy mode, hard mode, and maaaaaybe a normal mode for dungeons like this, but still lets you earn your tokens so progression isn't gated behind something more than 50% of people aren't going to do. However, they don't give you the title/achievement unless you do it on hard, which is actually hard." THERE is the correct answer. The dog and the deer bosses before Mao are about as hard as easy mode bosses should ever get.

 

I want to give NCsoft credit in this most recent event for allowing people to buy the Den of the Ancient's orbs even though I didn't need it because I am certain a lot of people did. That was a good move on NCsoft's part.

 

Furthermore, I'll say it again. No one shot mechanics on easy mode stuff please! I don't care if it is easy to avoid it. That isn't justification for it. No one-shots. I have already suggested alternatives in my previous posts. You want hard mode? I agree! I think hard mode should be a thing! I am not against that, but no one shots in easy mode, and everything should have an easy mode.

 

Here is another problem. If I point out that I have beaten Mao even with weak gear, then people will say, "See!? You can beat Mao, so it isn't too difficult! Therefore there are no problems!" At the same time, if I can't beat Mao, people say, "You're just a scrub, you need to git gud!" According to this, if you can beat her, it's fine, and if you can't beat her it is still fine. The problem with this is that, using this logic, under no circumstances is anything ever a problem based on its difficulty no matter how easy or hard it is. That is ridiculous.

 

You know what the real thing going on here is though? Selfishness. It is only too hard if YOU (whoever, anyone that is reading this) can't beat her. If YOU can beat her, but someone else can't, they just need to get good, but if YOU can't beat her, then she is too hard. Right? That is how most people's brains actually work. That is bad logic.

 

"If 90% of people can't beat her without way over-gearing it, then she is too hard for easy mode. There should be an easy mode, and more than 50% of people should be able to beat her within 1 evening of repeatedly trying on easy mode with appropriate level gear." That is good logic.

 

Remember the realm-rift supply chain event, where people were gear-equalized, and were complaining about how they can't even beat Poharan because their whale gear isn't helping them? You know what that means? It means a lot of these geared people aren't actually half as good as they thought they were in terms of skill. Yeaaaaaah.

 

You see we have WAY too many people who want to climb a ladder, and get help on the way up, but then when they get to the next level, they want to kick the ladder down so others can't climb it rather than help others up. Instead the person at the top wants to lord some kind of status over the lower ones even though they received help getting to the top. It is hypocritical. This is bad. There are also people who object to things getting easier. "I had to do this back when it was hard, so therefore you should too!" "I had to walk to school in the snow, uphill... both ways, so you should too even though we have buses now." No! Even though I had to do something the hard way, improvements happen. Advances happen. That is how the world works. Making something better is usually good, and it is not right for me to want someone new to have to suffer through something annoying just because I did. Therefore, it is not right for you to want that either.

 

Let me tell you a story about something that happened in another MMO: Game company releases new dungeon. Dungeon requires a certain mechanic to be completed or the whole party fails (Dungeon wipe.) The mechanic: There are 3 nodes arrayed around a circular room in a triangle pattern at 6 o clock, 10 o clock, and 2 o clock. The nodes are these pillars that stick out of the ground. Someone needs to go to a pillar and interact with it (press F and just channel it) repeatedly for the first half of the dungeon. This needs to be done for 2 out of the 3 nodes. If you fail to interact with the node when you are supposed to... party wipe. The problem is that interacting with it takes about 30 seconds each time, and interacting with it causes monsters to appear, which will attack you. Therefore, you need someone to defend the people interacting with the nodes. The other 3 people need to defend the 2 people interacting with the nodes. As soon as 1 point of damage is dealt to an incoming enemy, which approaches slow like a zombie, it will totally ignore the person interacting with the node pillar, and the enemies are easy to kill. Therefore, realistically, you only need 2 people to understand what to do in this dungeon (those people interact with the nodes). The other 3 can just brain dead DPS to defend the 2 channeling the pillars. So even though you only need 2 people to know what to do to accomplish this dungeon... you know what the failure rate on this dungeon was? 85%. Why? Because you couldn't even find 2 people per party who were willing to not pew pew. Everyone always wanted to brain dead DPS, and not interact with the node, but doing DPS attracts the attention of the zombies to you while you are channeling. All you have to do is channel the node, and let the other person defend you! 2 people need to do this. That's all you have to do! And yet... 85% failure rate. My point? "It's easy" doesn't mean the majority of people can do it.

 

The game company stuck to their guns. They didn't think it was that hard, and it wasn't. They said, "Well you people are going to have to learn." 9 months later, they released a "happy birthday to our game" statistic report on various things. You know what the failure rate on that same dungeon was? 85%. 9 months. The community didn't learn. I personally tried to explain it many times. Nope. All it would have taken was watching a 15 minute video on how to do the dungeon. Did people do that? No. Instead, people got frustrated and quit until the company finally buckled after having lost enough money from losing players, and made the dungeon simpler - start at point A. Proceed to point B. Kill boss. Collect treasure. The community never learned. They aren't going to. As a game developer, you need to accept this, and design around it - or lose players.

 

We don't need to be losing players in a game that is down to 1 server. You don't want to see NCsoft shut down Blade and Soul in the NA region, and lose your character, or have to play on a server with 250+ms latency do you? No? Then we need to appeal to a larger player base. You want me to say it bluntly? That means we need easy mode to be easier to appeal to brain dead american potatoes who this game is too hard for because we need their money to keep it running! They can play easy mode while we play normal or hard mode. The game doesn't appeal to a wide enough player demographic if it requires skill.

 

I don't think a lot of people understand how truly bad the vast majority of gamers are at video games. There are reasons why simplistic, brain dead mobile games are popular - most gamers aren't very skilled. I am NOT suggesting there not be a hard mode, or that hard mode shouldn't actually be hard. I am suggesting that easy mode should actually be easy, not have instant death mechanics and if you think that easy mode already is easy, then you need to realize how many people can't do it without being carried. How much sense does it make for a game company to spend tons of time and money and developmental effort making content that most of the player base won't complete, and in some cases, wont even see? Take for example that NCsoft has to invest time, money effort to make a hard mode of a dungeon. What percentage of the player base does hard mode dungeons? Go to F8 and look for how many posts there are for Hard Mode this-or-that dungeon. You DO need hard mode though because if you don't have it, then when people do want that challenge, if it isn't available, they will quit because the game is too easy.

 

It IS necessary to have versions of stuff that is actually hard, but that stuff shouldn't gate progression. It should just give those that accomplish it some fancy shiny thing, or title, or flag or whatever to wave around that everyone can see that means, "I am awesome," not actual power. The best players in the game don't need MORE power to widen the gap even more between them and normal players. The fact that they were able to do the hard thing is already proof they are the best. Recognition of that is enough. Yes, I understand that even more power than other people can get is what they want, but they shouldn't have it. They will disagree, but they know it is true too, not that they will admit it. They don't just want a title or outfit or sparkly thing that shows how good they are. They want more power, and to easily kill people who aren't on their level even easier than they already can, and that is not ok. If they are so good, then why do they need even MORE power to make it even easier for them?

 

People are saying, "But XYZ is just so easy, so it's fine!" Really? Here is an experiment for you if you are a person who believes that: Use some low-gear power alt character of yours. Don't use your clan. Go to the dungeon lobby, and start advertising for Dream Song Theater, but say, "No burst. Actually do mech." Go ahead and see how that goes for you. What? Oh... you couldn't get anyone to do it with you, or it took over an hour, or ... maybe you wiped multiple times, and people kept quitting, and you had to get more, and go back to the lobby over and over, and keep remaking the dungeon? I was told that doing mech was just so easy according to this forum thread. It's not? Hmm, but it is easy mode, and I was told that you don't have to worry about mech on easy mode! Wait... that is only true when people completely over-gear the dungeon? Oh well. I guess I was right after all.

 

Now probably watch people disagreeing with me as if I didn't address their counter-point in this post already because they can't even be bothered to read the whole thing. :tired:

 

 

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Li Eunmi   

@NorberttheOpiniated

 

As a new player, I totally agree with you. And you missed two easy mode dungeons that have instadeath mechs, Sandstorm Temple and The Shadowmoor. I always die in those two dungeons because I can’t handle the mechanics there in so called easy dungeons. I like going thru dungeons but these two are incredibly frustrating because ik what I have to do to avoid instadeath but I can never react fast enough to to avoid it. The only reason I even do them is for dailies else I would skip them entirely. It’s also why I don’t raid and I skip weeklies because if I can’t even handle easy dungeons, how am I even going to handle the much harder content in raids? So I don’t even bother because I know I’m not good enough and I don’t really want to burden others in content that matters for progress by being the only one constantly dying to raid mechs.

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Arohk   
7 minutes ago, Li Eunmi said:

 And you missed two easy mode dungeons that have instadeath mechs, Sandstorm Temple and The Shadowmoor. 

Sandstorm Temple? wut?

Shadowmoor, has in fact two noob filter mechanics.

1# You get marked because you're the furthest away from the boss = stand next to the black-ink spot to trigger his enrage.

2# you don't get marked = move out of the black death zone.

 

non of these two are difficult, you don't have to do any of Shadowmoor mechanics now, no cutting, no baiting, just dont stand in the death zone.

Just trigger his enrage and move out of the death zone... If that is too hard, you're lost.

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Li Eunmi   
Posted (edited)
28 minutes ago, Arohk said:

Sandstorm Temple? wut?

Shadowmoor, has in fact two noob filter mechanics.

1# You get marked because you're the furthest away from the boss = stand next to the black-ink spot to trigger his enrage.

2# you don't get marked = move out of the black death zone.

 

non of these two are difficult, you don't have to do any of Shadowmoor mechanics now, no cutting, no baiting, just dont stand in the death zone.

Just trigger his enrage and move out of the death zone... If that is too hard, you're lost.

As I said in my post, I know what to do. The problem is executing. It’s not that easy else I wouldn’t keep dying. Hell there was one time that I thought I actually got out of the deathzone alive but then a second later I was still dead so I’m like wth? And I do have to do shadowmoor mechs because I’ve never seen pugs burst that boss. 
 

Sandstorm Temple the first boss has a mechanic where three columns rise up at the perimeter of the room and three people are tethered. The tethered people are supposed to run to the columns to remove the tethers. The problem is that you are already dead by the time you locate the column and start trying to reach for it. Like I have to pause and look at my mini map to find them in relation to where I’m standing. By the time I’m moving, I’m already dead. What usually happens here is that three people are dead and only two or three people are actually fighting the boss, making it take that much longer to clear.

 

i don’t think the problem is learning, I think it’s execution. There is also not enough time to react so by the time you realize what is happening, you are already dead. I totally agree that easy mode shouldn’t have instadeath mechs at all. And it shouldn’t be so hard that you die each time you go into the instance despite knowing what to do. Save that for normal, hard and raids where the higher skilled people play.

 

Edit: sorry the tethers mech is actually ransacked treasury. My mistake :3

Edited by Li Eunmi

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Arohk   
13 minutes ago, Li Eunmi said:

Sandstorm Temple the first boss has a mechanic where three columns rise up at the perimeter of the room and three people are tethered. The tethered people are supposed to run to the columns to remove the tethers. The problem is that you are already dead by the time you locate the column and start trying to reach for it. Like I have to pause and look at my mini map to find them in relation to where I’m standing. By the time I’m moving, I’m already dead. What usually happens here is that three people are dead and only two or three people are actually fighting the boss, making it take that much longer to clear.

i have no clue what you're talking about, i have never seen such colums in sandstorm temple. are you sure that's the right dungeon?

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Li Eunmi   
1 minute ago, Arohk said:

i have no clue what you're talking about, i have never seen such colums in sandstorm temple. are you sure that's the right dungeon?

Read my edit :3

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