Heart upgrades' "cost rebalance" is unacceptable.

[Rysa]

 

PTS and Oils already skyrocketed in prices to nearly 600g. Current event provides large amounts of Vials, which is now virtually useless since you need PTS to upgrade stages that are nearly 2 years old. It's almost a 1000g increase per stage until True Virtuous.

 

This is unacceptable and should not be allowed to go live. Enough of taking your players for complete fools, NCSoft. Remove the PTS for awakened stages upgrades.

[CrazyDude90]

[MassiveEgo]

I wonder which lunatic came up with that price buff :D

 

 

[edit] Also, which lunatic decided to give us the link to the french spreadsheet. As progressive as the assumption that everybody speaks french is, it's not true.

Edited December 3, 2019 by MassiveEgo

[BrianB]

To be fair, they've never said it will be a "cost reduction". They said it's "cost re-balanced". That means it could be more expensive, and you shouldn't be surprised by how stupid these monkeys put pts into old heart stages upgrade. They h ave been doing that for everything they want to re-balanced. They know the game is dying so they are trying to milk the whales and make players slowly quit this game so they can close out the this ❤ ❤ ❤ ❤. 

And tbh i don't think these monkeys are smart enough to find away to help market prices go down. All they have done is making it worst. Just find another game to play until "UE4 bs" comes out bro. And then you can fully quit on this game. Until that just play another game and watch people suffer. 

[Moy]

I think it is the first time ever since CBT that when a new tier of an item is introduced, instead of a strict cost reduction (often huge) on previous stages, we get cost 're-balanced'. Correct me if I am wrong. 

[Josalina]

Don't worry so much about your heart anyway.  Save your gold for other upgrades.  NeroKoso just proved a maxed  heart is a useless upgrade anyway. Almost 0 dps increase over no heart at all. Check his YouTube video.

Edited December 4, 2019 by Josalina

[Rysa]

3 hours ago, Josalina said:

Don't worry so much about your heart anyway.  Save your gold for other upgrades.  NeroKoso just proved a maxed  heart is a useless upgrade anyway. Almost 0 dps increase over no heart at all. Check his YouTube video.

Useless for late stage upgrades, maybe. But when you're a pleb like me, you want to get your Heart to at least Champion 1 to benefit from Mystic boosts, which is now even harder to achieve due to NCSoft' stupid moves. The demand for TS and PTS keeps increasing while the supply stays the same, it's only logic that market prices skyrocket like they did yesterday.

 

Grand Celestial Fiasco ==> You now need billions of TS for each upgrade while the supply is still the same.

Heart Fiasco ==> You now need TS for very early stages and PTS for middle stages, the demand is increased and the supply remains the same. Even an ape with basic economics knowledge would figure that out.

 

I only see 2 short-term solutions to fix this:

1. Make TS craftable with untradable materials
2. Make PTS craft 100% guaranteed. Upgrades should not be gated behind RNG to begin with. This is NA/EU, not KR.

[ImoutoMaster]

On one hand i am glad they removed the need of elysians and sacred orbs alot but on the other hand i agree with Rysa PTS shouldnt be RNG which is giving us a higher price of the endproduct without reason.

 

Making a untradable version of TS would be nice too for me it dosent matter thou since gold is not a problem to get if you are ET Gear but still its unacaptable how do you want to get new players if you put them behind a big paywall ?

 

New Players will have to earn i guess 10K Gold or even more to reach Max VT and even at that point it can be hard to get a decent party for the newest dungeons.

Now think about the daily income of a new player ? at start maybe 60Gold ? 80Gold ? a bit later maybe 120Gold ? to make it easy i calculate with 100 Gold per day.

 

10K / 100 = 100 days. I guess without help a new player would need maybe 3 Months to reach a okish level. A new player is not getting into a mmo thinking " this will be my next mmo i am gonna play day and night" they probably think "lets see if this game is any good" and then they see what they have to upgrade to be a valuable player.

[Grimoir]

1 hour ago, Rysa said:

• Make TS craftable with untradable materials
• Make PTS craft 100% guaranteed. Upgrades should not be gated behind RNG to begin with. This is NA/EU, not KR.

I doubt any of these would happen because:

 

1. Making them craftable with untradable mats would simply flood the market completely and make any crafting profit from them worthless, which in turn would heavily upset those who use forgekeepers for profit.

2. Making PTS 100% guaranteed would have the same effect. Its one of the best material sinks in the game. I can assure you if they made them 100% craftable all yupgrades and everything would use them. If i am not mistaking KR / CN has them 100% success, and all their upgrades need like20-30 of them they have the same value there as soulstone crystals for NA / EU.

[Indifferent]

I prefer 30 100% instead 10 random, with my luck at last account I got 6 in 21 craft, and last 6 was failed, I not just stop play, I simply remove account, because its more than double of F5 cost, I felt completely idiot to making not buying them, good luck newer gonna make 1 more with ring in this game.

 

If random so in need make at least 2 failed 3th 100% protection line, or whatever count satisfy makers. Im still on one account not get dragon horn from lucky weel, and I made 100 spins all failed. All what you gonna acheave gonna make some people stuck in progress.

Edited December 4, 2019 by Indifferent

[Grimoir]

1 hour ago, Indifferent said:

I prefer 30 100% instead 10 random, with my luck at last account I got 6 in 21 craft, and last 6 was failed, I not just stop play, I simply remove account, because its more than double of F5 cost, I felt completely idiot to making not buying them, good luck newer gonna make 1 more with ring in this game.

 

If random so in need make at least 2 failed 3th 100% protection line, or whatever count satisfy makers. Im still on one account not get dragon horn from lucky weel, and I made 100 spins all failed. All what you gonna acheave gonna make some people stuck in progress.

IDK....thats 20-30 stones with transmute costs higher than we have currently....

[Rysa]

6 hours ago, Grimoir said:

2. Making PTS 100% guaranteed would have the same effect. Its one of the best material sinks in the game. I can assure you if they made them 100% craftable all yupgrades and everything would use them. If i am not mistaking KR / CN has them 100% success, and all their upgrades need like20-30 of them they have the same value there as soulstone crystals for NA / EU.

When they removed PTS from Grand Celestial upgrades, their philosophy was to alleviate RNG for the upgrade process.

Now, they're pulling this stupid crap by reintroducing RNG into the Heart upgrade process, which doesn't make any sense at all.

 

Also, PTS needs TS and RNG to craft. TS needs moonstones to craft. Moonstones are obtainable either by PvP or by swiping (I don't count PvE as it's not reliable). They're basically forcing the players into one of those 2 options. What do you think will happen when the new player finds out that he requires half a hundred PTS for a measly upgrade? He will quit, plain and simple.

 

I want to hear an official word from NCSoft on this matter, and I sure hope that those PTS numbers from the sheet are a typo.

 

[Arohk]

Hope he doesn't mind, but well, he's right.

 

 

[Grimoir]

2 hours ago, Rysa said:

When they removed PTS from Grand Celestial upgrades, their philosophy was to alleviate RNG for the upgrade process.

Now, they're pulling this stupid crap by reintroducing RNG into the Heart upgrade process, which doesn't make any sense at all.

idk where you got this from but its the first i hear of this statement.

 

2 hours ago, Rysa said:

Also, PTS needs TS and RNG to craft. TS needs moonstones to craft. Moonstones are obtainable either by PvP or by swiping (I don't count PvE as it's not reliable). They're basically forcing the players into one of those 2 options. What do you think will happen when the new player finds out that he requires half a hundred PTS for a measly upgrade? He will quit, plain and simple.

Dont get mw wrong, i also think PTS in the heart upgrade is a bit over the top but what is the difference if a new player sees he needs 50 oils vs needing 40 PTS ?

Also you need to keep in mind one important aspect: a new player wont know / care because he is NEW he never had and never will have different options like the ones who already play and had option 1 and option 2. So for the new players, upgrading with PTS will be something normal as they never experienced it any other way.

People need to stop using the "but new players..." excuse on every single thing...

[Wixa]

So i should probably upgrade my heart from true Hongmoon to Champions heart stage 1 before the patch?

[Grimoir]

41 minutes ago, Wixa said:

So i should probably upgrade my heart from true Hongmoon to Champions heart stage 1 before the patch?

Unless you want to spend some PTS as replacement for oils then yes.

[CookiesNmilk]

19 hours ago, Grimoir said:

Dont get mw wrong, i also think PTS in the heart upgrade is a bit over the top but what is the difference if a new player sees he needs 50 oils vs needing 40 PTS ?

Also you need to keep in mind one important aspect: a new player wont know / care because he is NEW he never had and never will have different options like the ones who already play and had option 1 and option 2. So for the new players, upgrading with PTS will be something normal as they never experienced it any other way.

People need to stop using the "but new players..." excuse on every single thing...

"But new players..." is a valid and powerful excuse. If a game cannot retain new players, then it's only a matter of time before the game gets shut down. Veterans will leave the game over time, but if a game has a healthy amount of new players joining and staying long enough to spend cash, then there is no problem. A flourishing game requires the amount of people joining and staying to be greater than the amount of people leaving. If I were to describe the current state of the game in terms to human-health, I would call it malnourished: hungry and starving for more (new) players. Veteran players are leaving at an alarming rate and ncsoft is not doing enough to keep new and old players interested in the game.

 

New players, mid-tier, end game geared players, it doesn't matter. The changes in upgrade cost is bad for the entire player base unless you're one of those super whales and already have every single thing upgraded to the max. You'll be hard-pressed to find anyone applauding ncsoft for their recent/future changes to weapon and heart. Sacred vials can be farmed through events, however, PTS cannot. Unless people pvp, they'll only be able to try for a CHANCE to successfully transmute a PTS maybe once a week. There are already enough gears that require PTS to upgrade, adding it to heart upgrades will just slow players' progression. Isn't the goal of the developers to keep players playing the game? All the changes they've been making recently is doing the exact opposite. More and more people are leaving the game and one of the reasons is because it's so hard to catch up in terms of gear. If new players and even mid-tier players see that upgrading with PTS is "normal," and that they are required to somehow gather so many PTS if they ever want to catch up, I'm sure they would lose all motivation to continue playing. As an end-game geared player, the upcoming change doesn't affect me much, but there's no way I would ever recommend this game to any of my friends or people looking for new game. I enjoy the game and find it fun, but that's because I don't have to worry about catching up with the content. As much as I would love for my friends or even co-workers to play bns with me, I know that they will eventually get frustrated with the upgrade costs and leave the game so I don't even bother introducing them to bns.

 

As stated previously, rng should be completely removed from transmuting PTS. In NA, it currently costs 263g per try to transmute a PTS and 335g if it succeeds (consumes 4 TS) while PTS sell for 540g in F5. This means that unless the PTS transmutation succeeds at least 4/7 of the time, you will be losing a lot money. Sure it can be a good sink for tradable materials and gold, but a lot of excess mats and gold are being introduced by all the rng cash boxes ncsoft have been putting in f10. I can't even imagine how much gold was pushed into the game from the BINGO box. At 6g per Hongsil's Treasure Coin and 450+ coins given out in prizes per play, that's over 2.7k+ worth of new gold being introduced in each BINGO game. It's one of the reasons for inflated prices in f5. Another idea that was brought up was an untradable bound-to-account PTS. Maybe keep the same transmutation cost as current PTS and increase gold cost while lower the tradable PTS transmutation cost by like one or two of each mat. That way there's still a sink for tradable mats and gold.

 

Grimoir I swear, I can read a post by you without even looking at the name and tell it's you. All you ever do is defend ncsoft for every single thing they do even when everyone else is demanding change. You probably spend more time on forums than actually playing the game. There's no way everything ncsoft does is right. They are bound to make mistakes and poor choices, and it's up to players to call them out on it. There have been many times in the past where these poor choices lead to players voicing their frustration and overturning the developers decision which luckily helped retain a little more of the player base. The CMs may play the game, but their characters are geared only slightly better than fresh-out-of-story characters. They haven't spent any/enough time doing mid-tier/end-game content to know players' pains and frustrations. I don't know if the developers even play the western version of the game. I wouldn't be surprised if they just pop into the game from time to time to make sure the market isn't going to hell. If they did played the game, they would know how negative players would view some of their previous and upcoming changes. They really need to do another survey like how they did when they decided to revamp premium membership but on the current state of the game and what players are looking forward to if they want the game to last. Otherwise the game won't even survive until we get UE4.

 

tldr:

Retaining new players keep the game running

upcoming heart rebalance bad for all players, not just new

slows down progression making people lose interest

need 100% PTS or bound to account PTS

Grimoir-stop defending everything ncsoft does. Criticism is good for game

Survey for current state of game desperately needed

 

[MassiveEgo]

4 hours ago, Grimoir said:

Dont get mw wrong, i also think PTS in the heart upgrade is a bit over the top but what is the difference if a new player sees he needs 50 oils vs needing 40 PTS ?

Hmm, let's see. It's almost as if you don't rng when you craft oils. Maybe this is what drives people to despise PTS and like oils. Just a thought.

[CrazyDude90]

NC$oft heard your complains and give you this:
 

 

Premium Transformation Stones for your Heart and Evolved Stones for oil crafting. :)

 

GO GO BUY BEFORE THEY ARE SOLD OUT :O

Edited December 5, 2019 by CrazyDude90

[Grimoir]

16 hours ago, CookiesNmilk said:

"But new players..." is a valid and powerful excuse. If a game cannot retain new players, then it's only a matter of time before the game gets shut down. Veterans will leave the game over time, but if a game has a healthy amount of new players joining and staying long enough to spend cash, then there is no problem. A flourishing game requires the amount of people joining and staying to be greater than the amount of people leaving. If I were to describe the current state of the game in terms to human-health, I would call it malnourished: hungry and starving for more (new) players. Veteran players are leaving at an alarming rate and ncsoft is not doing enough to keep new and old players interested in the game.

The game cannot retain new players because all of them have the mindset that they should get maxed gear immediately, with 0 effort. Most of them dont even want to grind or work towards something. I know quite a lot of "old veterans" who sold their accounts and now are making enw ones and come back to the game....so that point is negligible. Its like the player population in any game.

 

16 hours ago, CookiesNmilk said:

New players, mid-tier, end game geared players, it doesn't matter. The changes in upgrade cost is bad for the entire player base unless you're one of those super whales and already have every single thing upgraded to the max. You'll be hard-pressed to find anyone applauding ncsoft for their recent/future changes to weapon and heart. Sacred vials can be farmed through events, however, PTS cannot. Unless people pvp, they'll only be able to try for a CHANCE to successfully transmute a PTS maybe once a week. There are already enough gears that require PTS to upgrade, adding it to heart upgrades will just slow players' progression. Isn't the goal of the developers to keep players playing the game? All the changes they've been making recently is doing the exact opposite. More and more people are leaving the game and one of the reasons is because it's so hard to catch up in terms of gear. If new players and even mid-tier players see that upgrading with PTS is "normal," and that they are required to somehow gather so many PTS if they ever want to catch up, I'm sure they would lose all motivation to continue playing. As an end-game geared player, the upcoming change doesn't affect me much, but there's no way I would ever recommend this game to any of my friends or people looking for new game. I enjoy the game and find it fun, but that's because I don't have to worry about catching up with the content. As much as I would love for my friends or even co-workers to play bns with me, I know that they will eventually get frustrated with the upgrade costs and leave the game so I don't even bother introducing them to bns.

New players will only experience the upgrade path with PTS, they will never experience it the way current players do after the change so for the new players the upgrade costs will be normal as opposed to already existing players.

Now, one might argue about whether oils or PTS are better.  You shouldnt look at the game in terms of "catch up" because you never will. You should progress at your own pace with players at the same level as you, this is exactly the same as lesser geared players complaining they get kicked from F8 because they dont meet the requirements, but they refuse to make their own parties / groups / raids. 

To give you an example, i upgraded what i could slowly progressed to get things i wanted maxed. found a decent clan, started doing raids, making a nice income from selling raid runs, most things i farm i do not sell, i keep them for personal use so i am not coming short on things i need.

Catching up to a point where you are good enough to do all the content in the game is not hard at all, catching up to max is, and thats what people focus on far too much to even enjoy the game.

 

16 hours ago, CookiesNmilk said:

As stated previously, rng should be completely removed from transmuting PTS. In NA, it currently costs 263g per try to transmute a PTS and 335g if it succeeds (consumes 4 TS) while PTS sell for 540g in F5. This means that unless the PTS transmutation succeeds at least 4/7 of the time, you will be losing a lot money. Sure it can be a good sink for tradable materials and gold, but a lot of excess mats and gold are being introduced by all the rng cash boxes ncsoft have been putting in f10. I can't even imagine how much gold was pushed into the game from the BINGO box. At 6g per Hongsil's Treasure Coin and 450+ coins given out in prizes per play, that's over 2.7k+ worth of new gold being introduced in each BINGO game. It's one of the reasons for inflated prices in f5. Another idea that was brought up was an untradable bound-to-account PTS. Maybe keep the same transmutation cost as current PTS and increase gold cost while lower the tradable PTS transmutation cost by like one or two of each mat. That way there's still a sink for tradable mats and gold.

I think the entire bing gold influx was stupid and should have never happened. As for the PTS transmute i have nothing against it being 100% success, but i can almost guarantee you if they do that you will have it with 2x the cost it is now, and far far more items will require them, which means all the materials needed will go up even higher in price.

PTS being a chance is the sole reason why majority players sell the mats and buy them and thats what keeps the prices somewhat "stable" as the supply doesnt hit rock bottom vs demand.

 

16 hours ago, CookiesNmilk said:

Grimoir I swear, I can read a post by you without even looking at the name and tell it's you. All you ever do is defend ncsoft for every single thing they do even when everyone else is demanding change. You probably spend more time on forums than actually playing the game. There's no way everything ncsoft does is right. They are bound to make mistakes and poor choices, and it's up to players to call them out on it. There have been many times in the past where these poor choices lead to players voicing their frustration and overturning the developers decision which luckily helped retain a little more of the player base. The CMs may play the game, but their characters are geared only slightly better than fresh-out-of-story characters. They haven't spent any/enough time doing mid-tier/end-game content to know players' pains and frustrations. I don't know if the developers even play the western version of the game. I wouldn't be surprised if they just pop into the game from time to time to make sure the market isn't going to hell. If they did played the game, they would know how negative players would view some of their previous and upcoming changes. They really need to do another survey like how they did when they decided to revamp premium membership but on the current state of the game and what players are looking forward to if they want the game to last. Otherwise the game won't even survive until we get UE4.

No , eveyone seems someone who has a different view than them as "Defending", and that is a really poor mindset.  And i agree they make mistakes, they are allowed to, but you shouldnt delude yourself, cause most changes in this game are developer driven, NC can push our feedback down their throats as much as they want. but if the devs do not see it the same way nothing will change.

Looking at the recent rebalancings i am even proned to say those are made based on the other versions and not ours. Literally the only good thing about this rebalance is that those who worked hard in the beginning and upgraded are now better off versus those who just wait for reductions to even progress slightly.

[LilyPipy]

Just give us PVE ways to farm moonstones please   who knows maybe rng drop rate from farming Mao or something. Everything was so smother when we used to get Moonstones from Naksum back then, but all the materials skyrocket when you removed the moonstones from him and basically everything in this game needs moonstones even Sacred oils.

[Arkdain]

remove crystals from game, materials will be everywere on market that they drop in price so upgrades will be cheaper and faster.

want to get money? sell your mats, want to upgrade? keep your mats and buy more from market..............having the same materials in accound bound/tradeable version was the worst mistake all who fail to see that is brainwashed by ncsoft 

 

a voice from someone who left long time ago but still came to see into what deep ❤ ❤ ❤ ❤ ncsoft got in

[Merlin DE]

vor 4 Stunden schrieb Grimoir:

The game cannot retain new players because all of them have the mindset that they should get maxed gear immediately, with 0 effort. Most of them dont even want to grind or work towards something. I know quite a lot of "old veterans" who sold their accounts and now are making enw ones and come back to the game....so that point is negligible. Its like the player population in any game.

Dude your realy funny, why the heck you always presume people as lazy, wanting everything for free and immediatly? Maybe you should stop judge others by your own standards / mindset. Comments like this realy peeves me off, especialy after NC-Soft did everything to make thinks much more harder for new players and the community do the rest.
What you do when you come fresh out of the story. You might even struggle with your dailys, your gold income is not worth to mention. Finding a VT Group is close to impossible, at least without the help of friends. Last time i did a random VT-Run with my main, the partyleader tried to sell 3 free spots for VT for 100 gold each. I left the party cause i dont support other players "carrying" lower players for money. When i carry people i do it cause i want to and help others to catch up.
With some luck you might get your VT gear (even you have to buy it its still obtainable) but whats next? you will stuck on VT gear for a long time. You can farm TT soulshields at MSP but thats all. finding a TT group is still very hard, not to talk about ET.

 

After 3,4,5 month stuck on your gear with daily boring routine you will loose interest in this game with nothing new to explore.
OK, we will get a new dungeon every few weeks / month, but at what price? NC-Soft love to reduce gold / material drops in older dungeons making them obsolete. For every new Dungeon we get, 2-3 old dungeons got nerfed to "not worth doing them" People using the alternative weapon path still need the weapons from lower dungeons no one do anymore. Thankfully they can get their chest from moon refuge and some merchants, but thats not the sense of the game.

 

Stuff got that expensive and you need the same mats for everything whim the supply with the needed mats constantly got reduced.
Im sick of running dungeons for hours and dont get any valuable from doing it. Best example, the new bracelet. 120 runs, 120 orbs, do you realy think i have much motivation to do another 130 runs to get the 250 orbs i need to purchase this thing? No i dont have it. Im Sick of this crap, im Sick of the crappy droprates, 200+ runs BC, never saw the glove, 130+ runs WC, never saw the Belt, 120+ runs CC never saw the bracelet.

So yeah, i dont do daily anymore, i dont even login, i just play on raid days when my group is doing TT / ET and the only reason i do is, because they are my friends and i enjoy the time to do something with them, even i have no motivation to play BnS anymore.

 

As long as NC-Soft continue with this sick bad RNG BS they wont attract any new players. I know many people, no one complain about the grind, no one want their stuff for free or on instant, but nearly everyone of them complain about not having valuable and varied places to farm their stuff, its just freaking booring to run MSP and the same freaking 2,3,4 dungeons over and over and over and over and over and over and over..... again

[ImoutoMaster]

vor 29 Minuten schrieb LilyPipy:

Just give us PVE ways to farm moonstones please   who knows maybe rng drop rate from farming Mao or something. Everything was so smother when we used to get Moonstones from Naksum back then, but all the materials skyrocket when you removed the moonstones from him and basically everything in this game needs moonstones even Sacred oils.

I explained several times here in forum why moonstones should not be in PVE. Its litterly the only source of gold PVP Players have and they need lots of gold just like PVE Players.

NC will not give PVP Players any other way of farming gold since PVP players are usually players who pay less in F10 so they simply dont care about PVP Player needs, this means if Moonstones are avaible in PVE its a huge cut on PVP earnings which makes the game even worse than it is already for PVP Players !

 

Just buy them in F5 PVE Players can do that but PVP Players cant buy 100 Run Achivement in F5 so PVP Players are forced to PVE but PVE is not and you still want more.

[Merlin DE]

vor 3 Minuten schrieb ImoutoMaster:

I explained several times here in forum why moonstones should not be in PVE. Its litterly the only source of gold PVP Players have and they need lots of gold just like PVE Players.

NC will not give PVP Players any other way of farming gold since PVP players are usually players who pay less in F10 so they simply dont care about PVP Player needs, this means if Moonstones are avaible in PVE its a huge cut on PVP earnings which makes the game even worse than it is already for PVP Players !

Just buy them in F5 PVE Players can do that but PVP Players cant buy 100 Run Achivement in F5 so PVP Players are forced to PVE but PVE is not and you still want more.

Just make a cut between pvp / pve and dont force any side to things they dont want to do. the majority of the playerbase, ill guess about 70-80% dont want to pvp cause its just crap, arena is crap due to bad ping/lags and players who occupie the 10+ ranks in top 100 with 10+ chars of same class, BG is crap cause you need freaking gear wich is also way to expensive to upgrade.

So let pvp players get their stuff in pvp and pve players their stuff in pve, problem solved.

But since NC-Soft dont give a ❤ ❤ ❤ ❤ about what the majority of the playerbase think they wont change everything.
BTW: even if you would add 1 or 2 sources for moonstones in PVE (like back in time naksun) pvp players would still make enough money cause whales would still buy lot of them.