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Heinzen

This is the only MMORPG where upgrading your gear gets more expensive over time

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Heinzen   

great job, you guys are killing it

this game's economy inflation is probably higher than venezuela's at this point

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Grimoir   

Depends what you understand with "over time".....i mean gear should be getting bit more expensive the higher you upgrade following the upgrade path.

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vor 1 Stunde schrieb NightFer:

Communitys fault.

So you can produce 5X if you use 12Y now they change it so you need 15Y to get 5X without giving any new ways to farm Y.

Can you explain how the Community hacked into the BNS Gameservers and switched the need for Y to 15 instead of 12 ? Since its Communtys fault they did it somehow.

Edited by ImoutoMaster

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Heinzen   
2 hours ago, Grimoir said:

Depends what you understand with "over time".....i mean gear should be getting bit more expensive the higher you upgrade following the upgrade path.

The same path. A couple of months ago I would have spent around 33k gold to upgrade both slots that I need to max. Now that I got to 35k gold stashed, that cost has been raised to over 45k for the same amount of items.

 

Naturally it gets more expensive as you upgrade items and get closer to the "cap", but things are being made more expensive overtime for the same amount of things. 6v6 for material is fine and still yields a decent amount, but 6v6 and Arena do not provide everything that is necessary for it all.

 

Also I am not even going to bother with the guy who goes to every single post and replies "COMMUNITY'S FAULT!!!" because he probably doesn't even play this game.

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Grimoir   
11 minutes ago, Heinzen said:

The same path. A couple of months ago I would have spent around 33k gold to upgrade both slots that I need to max. Now that I got to 35k gold stashed, that cost has been raised to over 45k for the same amount of items.

Well, it kind off depends on your viewing point, if you want to flat out buy everything from the marketplace then yes it will be expensive. If you want to farm half and buy half then the cost becomes less. Generally i get a lot of elysian and sacred orbs from just doing dailies and running dungeons. Moonstones are a bit trickier to get., but other than that farming will really reduce the cost by a lot.

 

14 minutes ago, Heinzen said:

Naturally it gets more expensive as you upgrade items and get closer to the "cap", but things are being made more expensive overtime for the same amount of things. 6v6 for material is fine and still yields a decent amount, but 6v6 and Arena do not provide everything that is necessary for it all.

Yes, materials are split between PVP and PVE. To be honest i would say there would be far more success in having a equalized 6v6 mode for farming materials than a gear dependant one. at least in terms of moonstones / soulstones.

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Nemises   

Well it's simply the (rotten) upgrade system, in which you need mostly the same upgrade items from zero to hero. No other MMORPG has an upgrade system relying so much on the same materials. The "natural" way to make outdated upgrades easier is to raise the materials drops while introducing new materials for the new item(stages). This kind of system also would relieve the support from having 1000 ticktes before every major update "can you reset my xy to stage z". But the developers don't care about support stuff, because they are just coding and NCwest isn't giving them the feedback to change this. Of course there are people argueing with "more items need more inventory space", but please don't use the inventory as a trashcan, if you don't need the upgrade items for the character anymore sell them, this will also have a positiv effect on older upgrade stages when a new patch with new items hit the server. Having space in the inventory is also a kind of economical planing the character development.

 

TL;DR: A major change of the upgrade system could help at this point.

Edited by Nemises

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Heinzen   
31 minutes ago, Grimoir said:

Well, it kind off depends on your viewing point, if you want to flat out buy everything from the marketplace then yes it will be expensive. If you want to farm half and buy half then the cost becomes less. Generally i get a lot of elysian and sacred orbs from just doing dailies and running dungeons. Moonstones are a bit trickier to get., but other than that farming will really reduce the cost by a lot.

This is not realistic though. 90k Blood points from PVP yields about 600-700 moonstones. That is enough to max one accessory but it isn't nearly enough to work on Talisman or Pet, for example. In my case I am specifically talking about oils to upgrade Awakened Champions hear to True Champion as well as True Dragon soul to max soul. Oils and soul upgrades rely on the three materials (Moonstones, Elysians and Sacred orbs since you need them to obtain elysians) that have been inflated with the past few updates (except for evolved stones).

 

Going from where I am, which used to cost 33k to buy all oils to 45k buying all oils simply points out that the prices are broken. These upgrades should get cheaper because mats should, theoretically, be more abundant over time and that is not what have happened. Farming 90k blood points (and assuming you have gold in at least one BG to dump all of it in the good boxes) should take a player at least a couple of months, considering a close-to-50% win rate. The yield of 600-700 moonstones is not enough to craft all of the oils necessary for both, so even if I had means to grind for 90k blood points consistently for months, I'd still be missing on evolved stones and Elysians. Evolved stones can be farmed decently from MSP but an entire weekend where I ran 18 of them yielded only a little over 25 evolved stones in total. Elysians are easily obtained through MSP as well but that relies on using Sacred Orbs which are no longer properly obtained in-game by running PVE.

 

It is a cyclic issue where one mat depends on the other to be obtained and in the end there is no reliable and efficient way to obtain them. Prior to the huge update "fixing" costs and material sourcing, they were more accessible to everyone. 

Edited by Heinzen

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Grimoir   
1 minute ago, Heinzen said:

This is not realistic though. 90k Blood points from PVP yields about 600-700 moonstones. That is enough to max one accessory but it isn't nearly enough to work on Talisman or Pet, for example. In my case I am specifically talking about oils to upgrade Awakened Champions hear to True Champion as well as True Dragon soul to max soul. Oils and soul upgrades rely on the three materials that have been inflated with the past few updates (except for evolved stones).

I doubt that has any influence on the oil price, since you do not need the raw materials to make oils, but the crystal versions, so that has nothing to do with PVP as you can easily get all materials you need to make an oil even from Basin.

Oils went in price due to the new tier being added and people basically buying them all out to upgrade, plus one of the cheese methods to get evolved stones was removed.

 

4 minutes ago, Heinzen said:

I'd still be missing on evolved stones and Elysians. Evolved stones can be farmed decently from MSP but an entire weekend where I ran 18 of them yielded only a little over 25 evolved stones in total. Elysians are easily obtained through MSP as well but that relies on using Sacred Orbs which are no longer properly obtained in-game by running PVE.

Evolved stones can be farmed in a lot of different ways, as for Sacred / elysian orbs, i actually do get a decent amount of them from just running dungeons so i wouldnt agree on that part. But again you need crystals to make the oils not the orbs.

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Heinzen   
1 hour ago, Grimoir said:

Oils went in price due to the new tier being added and people basically buying them all out to upgrade, plus one of the cheese methods to get evolved stones was removed.

That is a really dishonest statement if you are aware of the situation. Oils went for 310-320g each and stayed like that for months since we got the new tier. The price increase has nothing to do with the new tier being released. Evolved stones isn't even a problem like I stated previously because that is the only material that got cheaper since the new tier of Souls were released.

1 hour ago, Grimoir said:

I doubt that has any influence on the oil price, since you do not need the raw materials to make oils, but the crystal versions, so that has nothing to do with PVP as you can easily get all materials you need to make an oil even from Basin.

Still, the easiest income for moonstones is PVP itself. Running dungeons was fine while HM Train was not limited to 4 per day (and two of them cannot be done with the average F8 group). This was not a problem before the HM Train squish.

1 hour ago, Grimoir said:

Evolved stones can be farmed in a lot of different ways, as for Sacred / elysian orbs, i actually do get a decent amount of them from just running dungeons so i wouldnt agree on that part. But again you need crystals to make the oils not the orbs.

The most reliable way is MSP for Evolved stones. There isn't other ways that are practical. MSP yields enough for 2-3 oils a weekend if you do it reliably and efficiently. 2-3 oils is less than 5% of the total that you need to max out a heart and soul in this game, which means it would take almost half a year to get enough Evolved Stones from MSP alone getting 20-30 evolved stones per weekend.

Edited by Heinzen

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Criston   

Well, it's nice to know that nothing has changed in two years of my being away...it's still pay to win, just like after the first six months of being live, it went that way and hasn't seemed to change with all I have read.  I left over that issue. 

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Heinzen   
4 minutes ago, Criston said:

Well, it's nice to know that nothing has changed in two years of my being away...it's still pay to win, just like after the first six months of being live, it went that way and hasn't seemed to change with all I have read.  I left over that issue. 

This is a recent problem. Market and economy had been fine since I returned to the game (when VT/SK was released) until just a few weeks ago. Their last few changes is what unleashed mayhem. They did acknowledge it in their social stream last week, so hopefully we'll see something done. Better late than never.

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Criston   
3 minutes ago, Heinzen said:

This is a recent problem. Market and economy had been fine since I returned to the game (when VT/SK was released) until just a few weeks ago. Their last few changes is what unleashed mayhem. They did acknowledge it in their social stream last week, so hopefully we'll see something done. Better late than never.

I'm sorry, the fact you can "auction" items that used to be completely bound to you might have changed, but the "pay to win" aspect hasn't changed at all.  I spent over 300 U.S.D. in the game to upgrade, and it lasted exactly 5 months.  Then it was literally worthless gear after that.  I ran raids, dungeons and spent hours a day trying to gear back up before I gave up and just left the game.  The sad part is I liked the game, but not the requirements to either grind and pray to the Gods of RNG that I got what I needed vs. someone that just wanted to be an A.Hole and keep me from getting the items needed, or spend more real money after I had already spent what a normal MMO would have costed for buying the game and paying for 18 months of game play.  Yes, it's a "new issue" that has been around in one form or another for a Long Time.

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Heinzen   
7 minutes ago, Criston said:

I'm sorry, the fact you can "auction" items that used to be completely bound to you might have changed, but the "pay to win" aspect hasn't changed at all.  I spent over 300 U.S.D. in the game to upgrade, and it lasted exactly 5 months.  Then it was literally worthless gear after that.  I ran raids, dungeons and spent hours a day trying to gear back up before I gave up and just left the game.  The sad part is I liked the game, but not the requirements to either grind and pray to the Gods of RNG that I got what I needed vs. someone that just wanted to be an A.Hole and keep me from getting the items needed, or spend more real money after I had already spent what a normal MMO would have costed for buying the game and paying for 18 months of game play.  Yes, it's a "new issue" that has been around in one form or another for a Long Time.

I don't spend a whole lot in this game. I sell raids that I run (1 ET, 3 TTs and 2 VTs) and that makes me enough money to """""""whale""""""" my character in staying relevant.

In reality, the problem you are complaining doesn't even belong in this thread, so I appreciate your input but it's completely irrelevant to what I have raised in OP. Have a great day

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Criston   
6 minutes ago, Heinzen said:

I don't spend a whole lot in this game. I sell raids that I run (1 ET, 3 TTs and 2 VTs) and that makes me enough money to """""""whale""""""" my character in staying relevant.

In reality, the problem you are complaining doesn't even belong in this thread, so I appreciate your input but it's completely irrelevant to what I have raised in OP. Have a great day

First, I am not complaining.  I haven't said anything other than stating facts, a fact you have put out there for all to see in that you sell yourself for money.  That is what I am saying, you may not pay money, but you do spend "money" to upgrade.  I simply said that the game was still pay to win, which seems relevant to this thread seeing as it was talking about the cost of upgrading.  I didn't say the game sucks, that I hate it or even that anyone could or should do something about it.  I stated facts.  Now, for a fact, I haven't played in teo years, there are many other MMOs that wanted my money as well.  I never hated this game, but I didn't like parts of it.  I am looking forward to see all the changes, but with the 12 different forum topics I have read, it clearly seems the pay to win aspect of the game is still alive and well...something that you have clearly pointed out with your response to me just now.  May you always be happy and lucky, in everything.

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Grimoir   
43 minutes ago, Heinzen said:

That is a really dishonest statement if you are aware of the situation. Oils went for 310-320g each and stayed like that for months since we got the new tier. The price increase has nothing to do with the new tier being released. Evolved stones isn't even a problem like I stated previously because that is the only material that got cheaper since the new tier of Souls were released.

The price of oils has also nothing to do with elysian orbs, moonstones or sacred orbs since those are not used to make oils. But it has to do with the new soul tier. Mainly as the demand rose, many players made and used their oils, and since the Spirit Stone gain is quite limited and market isnt supplied as many oils the price rises. Once people get a safe amount of them again it will gradually drop again.

Also you need to remember that oils are used to make psyches.

 

46 minutes ago, Heinzen said:

Still, the easiest income for moonstones is PVP itself. Running dungeons was fine while HM Train was not limited to 4 per day (and two of them cannot be done with the average F8 group). This was not a problem before the HM Train squish.

Yes, PVP is the best and fastest way to get moonstones. I am not talking about hard mode dungeons. I am talking about regular mode ones. I do not do hard modes for quite a while now as they are not rewarding and dont give anything i need or want.

 

 

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Heinzen   
26 minutes ago, Grimoir said:

The price of oils has also nothing to do with elysian orbs, moonstones or sacred orbs since those are not used to make oils. But it has to do with the new soul tier. Mainly as the demand rose, many players made and used their oils, and since the Spirit Stone gain is quite limited and market isnt supplied as many oils the price rises. Once people get a safe amount of them again it will gradually drop again

Of course oil prices are tied to Elysians and Moonstones. Sacred Orbs are just cause-effect analysis since you need to spend Sacred Orbs to get Elysians from MSP.

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Xzard   
20 minutes ago, Grimoir said:

The price of oils has also nothing to do with elysian orbs, moonstones or sacred orbs since those are not used to make oils.

They are linked, elysian orbs, moonstones or sacred orbs are used to make transformation stones, TS goes up, oils go up. 

The recent change in the craft made a lot of things more expensive, and this was according to them, unintentional. And Cyan mentioned they are aware of this, I would expect an announcement soon.

And going back to the topic, gold is losing value since the 1st year, stop pretending this is something new, I bet is pretty normal in every game, I remember F9 being like 1:60 or even more.
Probably the gold infaltion has been handled poorly, but still I think is normal. Not sure how to fix the gold value, because the more gold we have ingame, it loses its value, and one way to fight this is with gold nerf, but people hate this. Maybe one way could be adding more gold sink, using more gold on upgrades/morphing/crafting and less materials, something balanced. Maybe adding temporal or permanent NPCs that sells account bound items for gold like pet packs, oils, psyches...

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Heinzen   
4 minutes ago, Xzard said:

They are linked, elysian orbs, moonstones or sacred orbs are used to make transformation stones, TS goes up, oils go up. 

The recent change in the craft made a lot of things more expensive, and this was according to them, unintentional. And Cyan mentioned they are aware of this, I would expect an announcement soon.

And going back to the topic, gold is losing value since the 1st year, stop pretending this is something new, I bet is pretty normal in every game, I remember F9 being like 1:60 or even more.
Probably the gold infaltion has been handled poorly, but still I think is normal. Not sure how to fix the gold value, because the more gold we have ingame, it loses its value, and one way to fight this is with gold nerf, but people hate this. Maybe one way could be adding more gold sink, using more gold on upgrades/morphing/crafting and less materials, something balanced. Maybe adding temporal or permanent NPCs that sells account bound items for gold like pet packs, oils, psyches...

Inflation is normal and that's not the exact point I tried to bring up. If inflation was the only problem this wouldn't really matter, but the gold income has been decreased and the cost of most things have raised in a way that it hasn't since 2017 (last time Moonstones were worth 10g each). 


The increase from 4g to 6-7g we had in the past year is normal and it is expected -- people also have a lot more gold so it doesn't really matter, but in the span of a month everything skyrocketed and our income has decreased, it's not a natural or expected way. It's just like comparing a real-life currency to the big mac index, things might lose or gain monetary value but they will still yield similar purchase value. This update did not cause that, it made the purchase value way lower for the same amount of currency, way lower than than the price shift due to influx of material.

Edited by Heinzen

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Xzard   
12 hours ago, Heinzen said:

this game's economy inflation is probably higher than venezuela's at this point

 

7 minutes ago, Heinzen said:

Inflation is normal and that's not the exact point I tried to bring up.

???????????????????
 

15 minutes ago, Heinzen said:

the gold income has been decreased and the cost of most things have raised

This is practically the definition of inflation.


Inflation has everything to do with the current state, lets say that we get more gold income, now all quests give 100-200 gold, our gold income increased right, everything will get fixed then? No. Items will just get more expensive, because everyone will have much more gold to buy. Like I said, the problem right now is the crafting got an increase in price overall, this is the reason everything skyrocket, they need to fix this in order to give us the cost reductions players need, and then they can/should work on glod inflation solutions.
 

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Heinzen   

Yes but you are missing my point. Income has decreased and prices have increased. If income had increased by 10% and cost of items have also increased by 10%, then it would be the same cost value per item.


The point about venezuela's inflation was a joke if that was too hard to grasp, by the way.

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Showta   

So I've been gone for like a month or so now and comparing BnS to other games I've played in the past as well as the games I'm now playing presently, BnS is in an actual awful state and really needs to start shaping up big time.

 

BnS isnt offering anything that other MMOs arent anymore.

If anything, BnS is more expensive all around. It demands more playtime, more money, more studying for raids and even some simple dungeons. It's an uphill fight of a game. Even costumes are an uphill fight. You have to wait out rotations, try your luck gambling, then wait for an entire year or two if you miss out/can't drop $100 on the slot machines.

 

On the topic of gearing, now that I play XIV I see how disgustingly greedy BnS really is lol. The cost of things are so insanely high and the gearing just never ends. I get that it's an MMO, I've played MMO's for almost 15 solid years now. I get it. but BnS just chokes their playerbase way way way too much with how difficult and expensive it is for players to gear. Too much money, WAY too time consuming. You have to let players still have actual lives as well as pay their actual bills. The point of the game should never have become just gearing anyway. The point of an MMO is the experiences, the memories. and the current team just doesnt think about that at all. I dont know how else to put it in words.

 

but what I know without a doubt now is that both free players and players paying are not getting the experience out of the game that they should be getting. and that there's nothing that sets BnS apart from anything else out there anymore. If you play anything else at this point (aside from like bdo), you will get way more for the time and money you spend.

I don't know how to put my feelings into words. but I wish everyone the best.

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PetPuggi   

It's also the only MMO where every single event gets progressively more trashy than the previous one, without fail.

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