Tiresias99

Moon Refuge is absolutely terrible.

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Posted (edited)

Now that Moon Refuge is in the daily rotation, the absolute terrible design has come into clear focus.

 

Unlike Celestial Basin, which is "quest driven", Moon Refuge is just about grinding. It's boring content at its most boring. You just stay in the same area and repeatedly grind the same mobs until you get your 30 banestones and 4 boxes.

 

The rewards that you can buy with Moonlight Buds are utterly useless to any character with even a modicum of progression. At least Celestial Basin has Treasure Pouches that can be earned at a decent pace, even by relatively new characters. Moon Refuge has NOTHING to purchase that would benefit a character that is even to the point of clearing the weekly dungeons and Raven King.

 

Cache Panda Village is worthless to the very characters that it is designed to benefit: lower-level ones still trying to progress their weapon to catch up. Since it's open-field, non-normalized PvP, the newer characters are just trash mobs to any player that brings in their main. CPV spawns are what make farming Moon Refuge worthwhile, since -- as already mentioned -- there are NO rewards worth purchasing with Moonlight Buds for an even modestly geared character, but the zone itself is the very pinnacle of unfun.

 

Solutions to this problem are so very easy:

 

1. In addition to the daily quests and box-providing quests, offer quests like Celestial Basin that provide Moonlight Buds. Encourage people to move around the very large zone.

 

2. Add worthwhile Moonlight Bud purchases. Chests containing crystals would be a good start. Legendary Elements and Legendary Jewels are another good idea. That would allow the zone to function like a catch-up mechanic for new players or people working on alts.

 

3. Normalize the damage in Cache Panda Village. Just reduce the health of the NPC enemies if necessary to keep people moving along quickly. Now everyone stands a fair chance in a stand-up fight.

 

Invest in some design time with this zone! This should have been done before moving the daily quest from Celestial Basin to Moon Refuge.

Edited by Tiresias99

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2. -- Since the zone doesn't have shifting quests like basin, its repetitive grinding nature makes it vulnerable to bots.  I'm not sure why they moved away from the dynamic quests of Celestial basin, I also preferred playing that system myself.

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Crimhare   

If quests in MR will require running around more then now it will absolutely terrible. This zone is several times bigger then CB and scarcely populated - any running farming will take forever to finish. Delay after combat to sprint will ruin all farming and dashes won't be useful in such space. Agree with notes about rewards though - except soulshield there is not much there. SS takes 1440 buds - about month of grinding daily quest.

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Grimoir   
6 hours ago, ElectricPotato said:

2. -- Since the zone doesn't have shifting quests like basin, its repetitive grinding nature makes it vulnerable to bots.  I'm not sure why they moved away from the dynamic quests of Celestial basin, I also preferred playing that system myself.

There is nothing to gain there for bots, since everything you can get for buds is basically character / account bound.

 

9 hours ago, Tiresias99 said:

2. Add worthwhile Moonlight Bud purchases. Chests containing crystals would be a good start. Legendary Elements and Legendary Jewels are another good idea. That would allow the zone to function like a catch-up mechanic for new players or people working on alts.

Yes but currently those things you listed are one of the best gold sinks in the game. So making them even more free, will simply devalue gold more making  players keep an excess of.

 

9 hours ago, Tiresias99 said:

1. In addition to the daily quests and box-providing quests, offer quests like Celestial Basin that provide Moonlight Buds. Encourage people to move around the very large zone.

Players already can move around ....since every mob in there provides the items to complete the quests, p-layers just choose to farm the same one over and over. There are other mobs much easier to kill than spiders. But  i agree they should add material pouches for buds to the npc.

 

9 hours ago, Tiresias99 said:

Normalize the damage in Cache Panda Village. Just reduce the health of the NPC enemies if necessary to keep people moving along quickly. Now everyone stands a fair chance in a stand-up fight.

The mobs in there dont even have that much HP and they are fairly easy to kill already. Also since like a year have not seen anyone actually pvp in there.

 

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Arohk   
9 hours ago, Grimoir said:

The mobs in there dont even have that much HP and they are fairly easy to kill already. Also since like a year have not seen anyone actually pvp in there.

 

Went in there with my SF-alt some time ago, got onehit by KFM jumping on me then i left.

 

I once cleared it alone and got 62 chests out of it, but that was when no one else did the zone.

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19 hours ago, Tiresias99 said:

2. Add worthwhile Moonlight Bud purchases. Chests containing crystals would be a good start. Legendary Elements and Legendary Jewels are another good idea. That would allow the zone to function like a catch-up mechanic for new players or people working on alts.

While I don't see much of a real issue with this suggestion, Moon Refuge already is basically your starting point after you are done with the current story in order to catch up for the most part. As you gear up is still serves a purpose. seeing how you can even as a free player make at least 2-3 characters, you can in turn do on your main moon refuge daily. Spend those moonlight bud on experience charms which will help boost your new alt (once it is level 60) to HM 15 right off the bat (I've done this with pretty much all of my alts once moon was added). Easy way to also get skybreak accessories extremely early without ever needing to step a foot in the raid, as well as most of your new ' standard / starter accessories (Hellion) minus the bracelet which might change soon. Also, best place to grind for experience for those who actually want to hit HM 30.

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Xzard   

I got a solution for you:

-Don't do that quest if you don't like it.

Easy. There is plenty of other options now.

As I see Moon Refuge quest, is meant for players to get 4 boxes from the spamable quest, and trade those 4 boxes for the better boxes along with the dust from the quest. Its some XP and gold, but rng.

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Edensia   
Posted (edited)

if they stick with moon refuge, they should at least make the quest auto accept and auto hand-in just like basin was.. even tho its always the same quest, its really stupid to always open the questletter and accept it over and over again. Also they need to add more relevant rewards to the npc.. VT soulshield is outdated, the npc should sell TT soulshields .. you can get a full TT soulshield in 1 weekend in MSP.. it should also be farmable solo in MR but it should take longer than MSP

Edited by Edensia

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Boinger   

The 4box grind aint bad and with Spiders it's quick. I do wish they would add more to the area since we only use about 1/3 of the map. But they're to busy building new stuff 70% of the player base wont see for a while. 

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First off, Moon Refuge does have use for newer players trying to catch up. The accessory chests for bracelet (especially now that Naryu Sanctum is off the DC listings), glove and heck, even the belt are all useful. I will agree, however, that once you have all of these (in a week or two of doing DC), there's little decent rewards to be obtained in the area.

 

However, if you ask me, I'd probably change the area a few ways...

 

1) Have a few dynamic missions for each area similar to Celestial Basin that require you to go to each of the four sections. Of course, traversing the map can be a bit annoying, so...

2) More dragon pulses. You can jump to each of the four areas, but you can't jump back without windstriding. Why not have DPs to let us get back to the middle faster?

3) Make the gem chests hongmoon. I was almost excited to see I could grind up for an octo chest if I tried... until I realized they were the basic, um-transmuteable gems.

4) Put some more useful items in the moon bud shop... just something like material pouches and experience charms (not the hm 1-14 ones) like in Celestial Basin would be enough!

5) Revamp Cache Panda Village. Normalizing the damage would be nice, but... let's face it... does it really NEED to be a PvP zone? Just make it a free-for-all kill and loot instance. Easy.

6) Add an area boss to each zone that spawns in from time to time similar to the 3 factions bosses in CB. Make it a dynamic challenge for some decent items.

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Grimoir   
1 hour ago, SilverFoxR said:

3) Make the gem chests hongmoon. I was almost excited to see I could grind up for an octo chest if I tried... until I realized they were the basic, um-transmuteable gems.

Only if they change it so you dont get any gem powders when salvaging them.

 

1 hour ago, SilverFoxR said:

5) Revamp Cache Panda Village. Normalizing the damage would be nice, but... let's face it... does it really NEED to be a PvP zone? Just make it a free-for-all kill and loot instance. Easy.

technically...it is a free-for-all zone, you kill anything you want including players xD

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Boinger   

Cache Panda Village needs a better reason go to there. Maybe have a 10% 100-1,000 gold drops to occur.  Even better, once all the regular pandas are gone a mega panda shows up and drops a key to a Vault where you have 20 seconds to grab what ever you can from materials to money to outfits! Limit 1 per person per group. No alliances.

 

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Am 6.10.2019 um 14:12 schrieb Grimoir:

Yes but currently those things you listed are one of the best gold sinks in the game. So making them even more free, will simply devalue gold more making  players keep an excess of.

Yeah because we earn way to much gold and need every gold sink possible. Its not like that prices constantly keep raising while income is constantly reduced. I can remember Times where a pet pouch costs 30 gold, a PTS about 180-200 gold, Moonstones about 1.5-2 gold and where you could earn 100+ gold from purple train.

Now Pet Pouch 200+ gold, PTS about 400 gold Moonstones about 6-7 gold and income from Purpletrain about 90 gold.

So yeah we need more gold sinks and need to reduce mats and gold incomke much further ....

 

vor 16 Stunden schrieb Grimoir:

Only if they change it so you dont get any gem powders when salvaging them.

There are no gems you could salvage for gem powder except those you have refined with gem powder.

Gem Powder is one off the most needed and valuable things in the game beside oils / pts and the sources to get gempowder are way to less.

 

50 Gempowderor 5 gem Fragments for a pet gem and pet gems are only account tradable with real money

128 gem powder to refine 3 triangle to 1 quad gem

so yeah we dont need any more gem powder sources...

 

vor 16 Stunden schrieb Grimoir:

technically...it is a free-for-all zone, you kill anything you want including players xD

well lets meet there, you with a fresh out of story char, i with my full pvp geared main, lets see how much you will enjoy this fight and whats your chances to survive and get something valuable out of it. 

As long as you are not lucky and have some nice high geared who ignore you, as long as you dont attack them, you wont have any chance there as a "low" fresh out of story guy who need these mats most.

 

 

 

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Grimoir   
1 hour ago, Merlin DE said:

There are no gems you could salvage for gem powder except those you have refined with gem powder.

Gem Powder is one off the most needed and valuable things in the game beside oils / pts and the sources to get gempowder are way to less.

 

50 Gempowderor 5 gem Fragments for a pet gem and pet gems are only account tradable with real money

128 gem powder to refine 3 triangle to 1 quad gem

so yeah we dont need any more gem powder sources...

There you are! i Was wondering why i havent seen you :P

Dont get me wwrong, i agree that we need some more / better sources of gem powders / fragments, but allowing them to be gotten by something you can jsut botfarm is a bad idea.

I am all for letting gem powders for example drops from raids or hard mode dungeons (maybe that will motivate players to make their own parties and learn).

 

1 hour ago, Merlin DE said:

well lets meet there, you with a fresh out of story char, i with my full pvp geared main, lets see how much you will enjoy this fight and whats your chances to survive and get something valuable out of it. 

As long as you are not lucky and have some nice high geared who ignore you, as long as you dont attack them, you wont have any chance there as a "low" fresh out of story guy who need these mats most.

Well you have to keep the following in mind:

 

1. You can do refuge go in at the risk of getting killed

2. You can ignore that zone and farm basin for treasure pouches instead

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Nemises   
On 7.10.2019 at 10:27 PM, Grimoir said:

technically...it is a free-for-all zone, you kill anything you want including players xD

Yep, that's bad game design for a zone where low geared players can meet up full geared players. They should have just normalized the stats like in arena for that zone (and adjust the monster hp to the new dmg) to negate at least the gear advantage.

22 hours ago, Grimoir said:

Dont get me wwrong, i agree that we need some more / better sources of gem powders / fragments, but allowing them to be gotten by something you can jsut botfarm is a bad idea.

For nearly every damn item an account bound version exists, why not for gem powder? Salvaging gems would result in getting account bound powder of course... But for upgrading you still can buy the tradeable version in the market.

 

Other possibility: Whole moon refuge will be a map with normalized stats and a pvp on/off switch like in the Panda Village, people can farm pve quests in groups and pvp in groups

pros:

- bots can be killed by real players

- quest farming in groups as an alternativ social activity to dungeon farming

- friends no matter the gear level can usefully farm together

 

cons:

- more bots (would need a better bot reporting system and more action from the publisher)

- normal players can be ganked in the pve (actually this encourages you to go there with a party)

 

Another idea to make it harder for bots:

Against the 27/7 farm of the bots: Introduce "quest-energy" for this map. Every quest done consumes a part of the quest-energy. The quest-energy will be only recovered while the account is logged out of the game. This system would make it unable for bots to farm 24/7 on one account.

 

Actually bots shouldn't be the reason to stop implementing new fun things. The developers should find a way to keep the fun up and make it as uneconomical as possible for bots. Without trying something new, you'll never know how it really works. Thoughts are fine, but only if the developers try it we will find out all the pros and cons of the different ideas posted here. Of course a puplic test server would be the best to test something like this...

 

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8 hours ago, Nemises said:

Yep, that's bad game design for a zone where low geared players can meet up full geared players. They should have just normalized the stats like in arena for that zone (and adjust the monster hp to the new dmg) to negate at least the gear advantage.

For nearly every damn item an account bound version exists, why not for gem powder? Salvaging gems would result in getting account bound powder of course... But for upgrading you still can buy the tradeable version in the market.

 

Other possibility: Whole moon refuge will be a map with normalized stats and a pvp on/off switch like in the Panda Village, people can farm pve quests in groups and pvp in groups

pros:

- bots can be killed by real players

- quest farming in groups as an alternativ social activity to dungeon farming

- friends no matter the gear level can usefully farm together

 

cons:

- more bots (would need a better bot reporting system and more action from the publisher)

- normal players can be ganked in the pve (actually this encourages you to go there with a party)

 

Another idea to make it harder for bots:

Against the 27/7 farm of the bots: Introduce "quest-energy" for this map. Every quest done consumes a part of the quest-energy. The quest-energy will be only recovered while the account is logged out of the game. This system would make it unable for bots to farm 24/7 on one account.

 

Actually bots shouldn't be the reason to stop implementing new fun things. The developers should find a way to keep the fun up and make it as uneconomical as possible for bots. Without trying something new, you'll never know how it really works. Thoughts are fine, but only if the developers try it we will find out all the pros and cons of the different ideas posted here. Of course a puplic test server would be the best to test something like this...

 

The main issue is not everyone you think is a bot is a actual bot and they just may not want to speak to you and so on. So then you add the broken pvp system in the area for new players to catch up basically which can be abused and other players can freely kill them for no rime or reason other then they want their spot as a example. The quest energy idea is what caused the downfall of other games that limited a player in such whether it was crafting, unlimited type quest which makes Moon Refuge nice for the current experience grind etc.

Moon Refuge has a whole is good. It can be made better by more monster spawns in general and maybe a dragon pulse in each of the 'areas' to get back to the base camp like Celestial Basin has. Also, having the quest to function like Basin in which it is automatic / add phases and/or phase bosses with of course more HP so 1 geared player isn't enough to solo it..

As for Gem Powder. While they need to reconsider about the amount of solar energy > gem powder conversion due to the game age in our region and not base it on korea's age, it isn't that bad considering you can also get octagonal gems lately from events which can be salvaged for powder. It is why events are a normal thing. If you need gems work on those for that event, if you need pet packs or vials do those during the said event. Focus upgrade and you get done much quicker then if you try to split up all of your time into multiple things.

Really though all of the comments about panda village, my take on it is to get rid of. Have moonlight bud and the chest drop more often from the monsters already in place in moon refuge and then you won't have anyone complaining about being killed by another. If you want pvp, wear a faction outfit, do battleground, tag, shackled or even normal arena. It keeps both worlds happy and also apart for those players who simply refuse to do one or the other.

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Nemises   
17 minutes ago, Ryunosuke Takahashi said:

The main issue is not everyone you think is a bot is a actual bot and they just may not want to speak to you and so on.

That's possible, but if you're really there only for doing peacefully your quests I highly doubt that the numbers of potential incidents justifies not even trying this out for a short period of time to gather some data.

22 minutes ago, Ryunosuke Takahashi said:

So then you add the broken pvp system in the area for new players to catch up basically which can be abused and other players can freely kill them for no rime or reason other then they want their spot as a example.

Yes i mentioned this point as a con. Actually what can be done with pvp to harass people, can also be done with pve actions like intentionally killing the mobs others are running to etc. Once I was standing semi-afk near a farmspot in moon refuge and another player tried to kill me with the mobs around me for his "fun". Those people are in every game and they search every method to bother others. It is about the community to handle this people or the publisher if those people actually drive out potential paying costumers... (code of conduct)

Also I want to emphasize that this system makes no sense at all if every farmable item in there is account bound and can't be traded.

56 minutes ago, Ryunosuke Takahashi said:

The quest energy idea is what caused the downfall of other games that limited a player in such whether it was crafting, unlimited type quest which makes Moon Refuge nice for the current experience grind etc.

We already have a limit for daily quests (40) which is in fact something like a quest energy with a daily reset and hasn't caused the downfall of BnS yet.

First of all, what I haven't stated out enough in my original post, this energy should refer to new quests and just for this map. This is an additional option for farming and no limitation of the current ones. You are worried about the 10k exp charms? Increase the exp for monster kills and furthermore as a special of this map don't divide them in a party. Instead let every partymember in range gain the full exp. So actually group farming becomes rewarded. You are worried about the Moonlight Bud? make them a direct drop from the monster, without a quest. This would be better as veterans can push their new starting friends with Moonlight Buds when killing mobs in a party.

 

Everything has pros and cons, but not enough is being tried to actually gain the feedback of many players (I really think about many and not the minority that's currently active in this forum). Introducing a new system -> making an ingame survey after 3-4 days -> analyze the feedback -> keep it/ particulary keep it with changes/ retrieve it.

1 hour ago, Ryunosuke Takahashi said:

Really though all of the comments about panda village, my take on it is to get rid of.

Why get rid of it, just make it accessible for exactly one person. It can be nice variety while farming and a pleasant surprise. However there should be a mechanism to secure that the person entering is the person that has summoned the mob to spawn the portal.

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1 hour ago, Nemises said:

Also I want to emphasize that this system makes no sense at all if every farmable item in there is account bound and can't be traded.

It is that way to cut down on the amount of players that would actually bot this. If everything is bound to account then it narrows down exploiting. Make the items free trade, would kill the market on some items like Legendary Hammers but also open the way for forms of botting.

1 hour ago, Nemises said:

We already have a limit for daily quests (40) which is in fact something like a quest energy with a daily reset and hasn't caused the downfall of BnS yet.

However, if you set that to something that is already unlimited like Celestial Basin and Moon Refuge then you would basically kill those areas off for those players who want to farm it for experience charms, moonlight bud for alts, awakening skybreak items, min/maxing fallen / ivory soul shields, limit the amount of hammers they could buy a day, or HM1-15 1mil experience charms which all help them catch up in a manner of speaking. Grant it most of that people consider old content crap but as a new player its 'new content'. And yea, I get it they could have the monsters give more experience, moonlight bud to drop off them and so on but I highly doubt any of this will come to be.

1 hour ago, Nemises said:

Why get rid of it, just make it accessible for exactly one person. It can be nice variety while farming and a pleasant surprise. However there should be a mechanism to secure that the person entering is the person that has summoned the mob to spawn the portal.

Ok, say you make it for only 1 person to enter then it automatically closes. Why have a special zone at all in that regard when they could have what drops inside drop off the monsters outside and save resources coding wise and server wise. So what is the pro of having it aside from helping "that" player in getting some materials.

1 hour ago, Nemises said:

Everything has pros and cons, but not enough is being tried to actually gain the feedback of many players (I really think about many and not the minority that's currently active in this forum). Introducing a new system -> making an ingame survey after 3-4 days -> analyze the feedback -> keep it/ particulary keep it with changes/ retrieve it.

Everything sure does but long story short this is a Korean game. So we honestly have very little say on how things go. I mean I would honestly love for them to just give us the Korean game client with only 1 change language based on region. No other changes. Won't ever happen but one can dream @Hime

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Nemises   
9 hours ago, Ryunosuke Takahashi said:
11 hours ago, Nemises said:

Why get rid of it, just make it accessible for exactly one person. It can be nice variety while farming and a pleasant surprise. However there should be a mechanism to secure that the person entering is the person that has summoned the mob to spawn the portal.

Ok, say you make it for only 1 person to enter then it automatically closes. Why have a special zone at all in that regard when they could have what drops inside drop off the monsters outside and save resources coding wise and server wise. So what is the pro of having it aside from helping "that" player in getting some materials.

- variety while farming -> qol element

- pleasant surprise -> qol element

- recycle an already coded map -> saves up resources

- every mob in there drops a chest for 100%, something that's not possible as a normal droprate in the outside world

 

This map is comparable to the goblin rifts in D3, a highly rewarding area. Guaranteed drops from every mob which are also availiable outside, but not in that 1:1 kill ratio that's applied inside. People aren't forced to go in there, if they want to keep on brainless farming while watching a stream or whatever the reason may be they can do so.

10 hours ago, Ryunosuke Takahashi said:

Why have a special zone at all in that regard when they could have what drops inside drop off the monsters outside and save resources coding wise and server wise.

There are plently of things that are a real resource wastage with great impact on the gaming experience. Rework the accessability to the village shouldn't take much resources, as this kind of "entrance" already exists in the game.

 

If you think radical, as I preceive it while reading this, then everything is questionable.

- Why is the Moon refuge map absolutly large, if the mobs would have fit in a map that's half the size?

- Why is it necessary to implement a fishing area in moon refuge, isn't one fishing area enough?

- Why even implement a whole new map with moon refuge, if the developers could have added the farmable items for peaches in celestial basin?

- Why does dungeons and raids have trash mobs if they have obviously no pro agrument?

- Why does dungeons and raids have such a long way to run, if actually only the miniboss/boss room is necessary?

- Why does Circle of Sundering has four platforms with dragon stream animations and not just one, where the bosses will spawn one after another? Same for Den of the Ancient

- Why are there still mobs in the beginner areas, if the blue quests, for which they original were necessary, have been patched out of the game?

- Why are there even dungeons before you reach max lvl, if they don't give anything essencial to level up?

-...

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2 hours ago, Nemises said:

There are plently of things that are a real resource wastage with great impact on the gaming experience. Rework the accessability to the village shouldn't take much resources, as this kind of "entrance" already exists in the game.

To be honest it could be reworked or it could be removed completely and it wouldn't effect the game if at all. I always said the Moon Refuge map needs more monster spawns for the size of map it is. And yea they could of added everything to Celestial Basin but they wanted to design a new area for us which I know you might end up using that comment to argue then why remove Panda Cache Village which is where I'll add this comment in. So far out of all of the topics I've seen one thing is pretty clear, no one likes the pvp involved in the village when it is / was meant for new players to go in treasure room style to help progression.

Why do dungeons have trash mobs. To slow down players. Why have large dungeons with only a boss? Why do players skip those trash mobs and just speed through the dungeons when they only take mere seconds to kill with our current damage? Dungeons are far shorter then Raids. Raids are designed that way because frankly their end game things for you to do in which case should be long and hard but just think you don't have to finish it all in the same day either unlike dungeons.

While the lower level dungeons might not offer something to you in terms of gear, materials because they have basically been phased out over the 3 years. They still offer players something to do, outfits and achievements, weapon skins. Everything at some point can be considered old content by players while it might still be new content to others.

Why keep normal mobs throughout the map while removing the side quests in those maps. Actually the question really is why remove those side quest. Sure they took some time to do them all but some were actually fun, gave lore on some of the side characters you would run into.

Anyways @Nemises your suggestions are decent enough and its nice to see someone post on here that offers feedback without crying about subjects. There are many ways they could fix this game but frankly I don't see it happening anytime soon.

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