Suggestion: Bonus drop rate for 'team' Hardmode Runs

[Hellfeather]

Basically, watching Keroppi's new video where he discusses a few topics made me think about one of them he raised which was "how can we reward players or incentivise hardmode dungeon"

 

So my thought process were as follows;

Why do I run hardmode dungeons with my static group?

- Better drops (?) Question marked this is, on average, I do see more onyx scales comparatively to normal mode, outfits are definitely a bonus.

- PSYCHES, pretty much the governing reason why my static runs hardmode over normal mode.

- Its fun(?) I mean, yeah we end up doing some mechanics, kinda keeps things interesting rather than the dps fiesta for normal mode.

 

Kero suggested that hardmode give more gold than normal, I don't entirely agree with this as it'll end up making f8 MORE like f8, which we don't want and I can see "the rich get richer and the poor stay poor". I mean its not entirely bad, but I think what I'm about to propose might be a decent solution.

 

So, what I propose is that similar to challenge mode, we create a 'team' in f8. The reason for this is because I don't see a way around it if we don't you'll see why later. This team is basically your static of however many players you want. You then select the hardmode dungeon you want to farm and complete it as normal, the catch is, upon each completion the runs we be tallied up for the team, each consecutive run will have bonus drop rates on all/certain items for the TEAM. See now, that's why I said team, if it was individuals you could see how this would be abused or bug exploited.

 

When the group disbands the counter is removed.

 

For example.

 

We running 6 man Brood Chamber Hardmode

First run - Normal Drop rate %s

Second run - Increase by 1%

Third run - Increase by 2%

Fourth - Increase by 3%

Fifth - Increase by 4%

 

So and and so forth. OBVIOUSLY you would cap it at lets say 20 or 25 runs and the max increase % would be around 15-20%. So every other run after X runs is just 25%. Look, these are rough numbers but thats kind of the idea I'm thinking that would greatly encourage players to do Hardmode. 

 

What are your thoughts on this? Feel free to add on top of this idea, or just bash me about how stupid it is.

 

Cheers,

Hellfeather

 

 

[ElectricPotato]

When KR released beginner mode, much of the daily quest golds were migrated into a chance o f gold bars in the harde mode dynamic boxes.

[Necrontyr]

Not a good idea, because that encourages players to farm the same dungeon, and it is proved that repeating the same thing over and over just burns players faster. In my case I can't do the same dungeon two times in a row because I feel it booooooring, and in a 3rd time I just want to kms and ask myself what am I doing with my life. Additionally you don't get daily rewards from 2nd time onwards and that greatly reduces your daily gold income considering you won't have the time to do all other dailies. Personally I would even like a limited number of entries per day in all dungeons (like a lot of games do), but that's just me.

Better to just change difficulty tiers, where a hard Startstone Mines is as challenging as a hard Warped Citadel.

Something has been planned already. Check the Dev Letter from KR from this June:

Quote

 

Beginner / Normal / Hard Mode Dungeons

 

As BNS revolves around the dungeon experience, we wanted to let players face the joys of "experiencing" the dungeons and their mechanics, rather than having players "fail" and die for their mistakes.

The previous "instant death" effects will instead deal "unresistable damage" in this new mode.

As the boss HP and damage, as well as the "instant death" mechanic may be different with each mode, the overall attack pattern and mechanics will not change.  We hope that this change will allow more beginners to feel free to join in on dungeon runs, and move up to the Normal and Hard mode counterparts when they feel they are ready.

 

In order to not "ruin" the current experience, we have kept the Normal mode and Hard modes to be what you have been experiencing before.

 

We hope that this change opens up the game to a wider range of players.

 

 

Edited September 3, 2019 by Necrontyr

[KzE]

8 hours ago, Hellfeather said:

Kero suggested that hardmode give more gold than normal, I don't entirely agree with this as it'll end up making f8 MORE like f8, which we don't want and I can see "the rich get richer and the poor stay poor". I mean its not entirely bad, but I think what I'm about to propose might be a decent solution.

Kero should play like 2-3 weeks with randoms, and he will know whats the problem. The answer is simple : players dont know even the normal mode mechs. From every HM reward buff will profit only ppl, who already run HM, and those F8 whale "burst" parties, who have 0 mech knowledge.

Edited September 3, 2019 by KzE

[MassiveEgo]

11 hours ago, Hellfeather said:

Kero suggested that hardmode give more gold than normal, I don't entirely agree with this as it'll end up making f8 MORE like f8, which we don't want and I can see "the rich get richer and the poor stay poor". I mean its not entirely bad, but I think what I'm about to propose might be a decent solution.

F8 is how it is, because people keep not learning. And I don't mean it in a sense that people don't learn anything at all. Just learning waaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaay too slow for the general hard mode runner to accommodate. The learning curve for hard mode is completely off the chart compared to normal mode. Take WC for example. Is it mechanically hard? Not in the slightest. Is it complex beyond reason? Not in the slightest. Here's where the camel's back barely manages to hold the weight - learning phases. Each boss fight has a number of learning phases, that some people get stuck in, sometimes for all eternity. First phase of learning, is survival. Getting to know the bosses' normal rotation so you do not die to basic stuff. Most people struggle with this the most and for the longest time, but in the same time mastering this, makes any boss fight a total cheese, since normal attack rotations and dps checks take the longest amount of time in a single boss fight. Mechanical phases aren't that thrilling, since the mechs by themselves aren't hard at all, although I won't deny that some of them have more elements than others. Compare RTHM last boss to WCHM last boss and it's blatantly obvious that there are two more layers of mechanical complexity to pay attention to (which is not an issue, since it pretty much means you have to give more of your party members mechanic roles, meaning they don't get to just braindead dps. More involvement for everybody is what I call a teamplay boss fight).

Our case is that there are way too many people that just don't get past learning how to deal with basic boss rotation. Those who learn fast, progress to clearing mechanical phases and the dungeons as a whole, while the rest need others to compensate for their inadequacy. This is where the segregation occurs. These who excel at rotations and mechanics, do not have ANY incentive to pick up the slack for those who do not. And your "static" rewards increase will not change this. People won't suddenly get an inspiration to group up with randoms. They'll do what they know works - form statics with people who are on their level of proficiency or better, so they can extract the highest amount of profit per unit of time invested. Meanwhile those who have problems learning rotations and mechanics, will just be stuck in the "try-die-respawn-try again" limbo until they eventually give up - this is the most common scenario you would encounter in this game, since a single player who goes full potato is more than enough to completely nullify a party's chances of succeeding in a dungeon run. In normal mode it's not that hard to salvage, but in hard more is a completely different story and there is no place for underperforming members until the dungeon becomes obsolete. Unless you have some remedy for this disparity in player skill levels and learning abilities, I don't see how your system will improve our curreny situation.

[criticalnature]

4 minutes ago, MassiveEgo said:

... Our case is that there are way too many people that just don't get past learning how to deal with basic boss rotation. Those who learn fast, progress to clearing mechanical phases and the dungeons as a whole, while the rest need others to compensate for their inadequacy. This is where the segregation occurs. These who excel at rotations and mechanics, do not have ANY incentive to pick up the slack for those who do not. And your "static" rewards increase will not change this. People won't suddenly get an inspiration to group up with randoms. They'll do what they know works - form statics with people who are on their level of proficiency or better, so they can extract the highest amount of profit per unit of time invested. Meanwhile those who have problems learning rotations and mechanics, will just be stuck in the "try-die-respawn-try again" limbo until they eventually give up - this is the most common scenario you would encounter in this game, since a single player who goes full potato is more than enough to completely nullify a party's chances of succeeding in a dungeon run. In normal mode it's not that hard to salvage, but in hard more is a completely different story and there is no place for underperforming members until the dungeon becomes obsolete. Unless you have some remedy for this disparity in player skill levels and learning abilities, I don't see how your system will improve our curreny situation...

I agree with what you say, I think implementing this system would further hurt the game, and worsen the current state of the game. What would be potentially more interesting is experienced based Expert/Trainee systeem -- But I have no idea how it could be implemented in this game. (discuss) :-) Give people incentive for running with inexperienced players.

 

 

Edited September 3, 2019 by criticalnature
additional thought

[Hellfeather]

On 9/3/2019 at 11:35 PM, MassiveEgo said:

F8 is how it is, because people keep not learning. And I don't mean it in a sense that people don't learn anything at all. Just learning waaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaay too slow for the general hard mode runner to accommodate. The learning curve for hard mode is completely off the chart compared to normal mode. Take WC for example. Is it mechanically hard? Not in the slightest. Is it complex beyond reason? Not in the slightest. Here's where the camel's back barely manages to hold the weight - learning phases. Each boss fight has a number of learning phases, that some people get stuck in, sometimes for all eternity. First phase of learning, is survival. Getting to know the bosses' normal rotation so you do not die to basic stuff. Most people struggle with this the most and for the longest time, but in the same time mastering this, makes any boss fight a total cheese, since normal attack rotations and dps checks take the longest amount of time in a single boss fight. Mechanical phases aren't that thrilling, since the mechs by themselves aren't hard at all, although I won't deny that some of them have more elements than others. Compare RTHM last boss to WCHM last boss and it's blatantly obvious that there are two more layers of mechanical complexity to pay attention to (which is not an issue, since it pretty much means you have to give more of your party members mechanic roles, meaning they don't get to just braindead dps. More involvement for everybody is what I call a teamplay boss fight).

Our case is that there are way too many people that just don't get past learning how to deal with basic boss rotation. Those who learn fast, progress to clearing mechanical phases and the dungeons as a whole, while the rest need others to compensate for their inadequacy. This is where the segregation occurs. These who excel at rotations and mechanics, do not have ANY incentive to pick up the slack for those who do not. And your "static" rewards increase will not change this. People won't suddenly get an inspiration to group up with randoms. They'll do what they know works - form statics with people who are on their level of proficiency or better, so they can extract the highest amount of profit per unit of time invested. Meanwhile those who have problems learning rotations and mechanics, will just be stuck in the "try-die-respawn-try again" limbo until they eventually give up - this is the most common scenario you would encounter in this game, since a single player who goes full potato is more than enough to completely nullify a party's chances of succeeding in a dungeon run. In normal mode it's not that hard to salvage, but in hard more is a completely different story and there is no place for underperforming members until the dungeon becomes obsolete. Unless you have some remedy for this disparity in player skill levels and learning abilities, I don't see how your system will improve our curreny situation.

I don't understand how this got to a "lets rant and hate on f8" thread*. 

I've put forward an idea that would hopefully make doing hardmode run's more appealing for the entire community. I'd like some feedback on it, this wasn't an opportunity to rant on about f8. What I meant by my "f8 more like f8" was the rediculous AP and gear requirements that players tend to ask for, which in turn makes the game less desireable for new players.

 

On 9/3/2019 at 5:02 PM, Necrontyr said:

Not a good idea, because that encourages players to farm the same dungeon, and it is proved that repeating the same thing over and over just burns players faster. In my case I can't do the same dungeon two times in a row because I feel it booooooring, and in a 3rd time I just want to kms and ask myself what am I doing with my life. Additionally you don't get daily rewards from 2nd time onwards and that greatly reduces your daily gold income considering you won't have the time to do all other dailies. Personally I would even like a limited number of entries per day in all dungeons (like a lot of games do), but that's just me.

Better to just change difficulty tiers, where a hard Startstone Mines is as challenging as a hard Warped Citadel.

Something has been planned already. Check the Dev Letter from KR from this June:

 

Thanks for the feedback, I think players currently have to run the same dungeon(s) now anyway for certain drops (Drowning deeps for bracelet, Warped citadel for belt). Its something we can't avoid, but the idea was to entice players to run hardmode for the bonus drop rates, hopefully also learn some dungeon mechanics along the way. 

Edited September 5, 2019 by Hellfeather

[MassiveEgo]

4 hours ago, Hellfeather said:

1. I don't understand how this got to a "lets rant and hate on f8" thread*. 

2. I've put forward an idea that would hopefully make doing hardmode run's more appealing for the entire community. I'd like some feedback on it, this wasn't an opportunity to rant on about f8. What I meant by my "f8 more like f8" was the rediculous AP and gear requirements that players tend to ask for, which in turn makes the game less desireable for new players.

1. It didn't;

2. And I told you why your idea won't work. This game, just like any proper mmo, rewards players for success, not for participation. Just being there and trying to clear it, will not give anybody anything. People need to clear it, otherwise it's pointless. And as I said in a rather obvious way in my previous post, people who can clear it, band up and clear it. People who cannot, give up. Your system won't change this, as there are requirements in place when it comes ot hard mode, that the vast majority of players simply do not meet. And by that I do not mean gear and stats, that's the easiest thing to obtain and possess. As I said, unless you have a solution to the problem where people simply never learn antyhing and attempt to just chop chop the boss down like it's a minecraft tree (some try to learn but it takes them an absolute eternity. Dunno what kind of incentive you have in mind for leveling up a party with such people, but it better impress me otherwise I'm simply not taking them or going with them), this will not go anywhere and rich will keep getting richer, while the poor will stay poor. Now that we have the clarification out of the way, what is your solution to this problem I presented? And before you get to answering it, closing our eyes and pretending it doesn't exist, isn't a solution. Rewards for completion, not participation.

[CrazyDude90]

Am 3.9.2019 um 05:20 schrieb Hellfeather:

"the rich get richer and the poor stay poor"

Thats what i see since the beginning of lvl 50 content when trove/rng boxes were released.^^ Nothing changed until now.

 

and ncwest make that even more worst every time they nerf the daily gold for lower dungeons so people with lesser gear always get lesser gold than the one who pay for their gear /  play since start.

[Grimoir]

I think you would have more success if they introduced something like tera had, "Blast from the past" where players could queue for a random older dungeon, and everything gear wise was equalized in it similar to Realmrift. but those who queued got a rewarded for participation and helping newer players. Maybe something like that would be good here with rewards helping out the gear progression rather than mindless trying to farm a  dungeon that needs end game gear.

[Hellfeather]

On 9/5/2019 at 7:09 PM, MassiveEgo said:

 

2. And I told you why your idea won't work. This game, just like any proper mmo, rewards players for success, not for participation. Just being there and trying to clear it, will not give anybody anything. People need to clear it, otherwise it's pointless. And as I said in a rather obvious way in my previous post, people who can clear it, band up and clear it. People who cannot, give up. Your system won't change this, as there are requirements in place when it comes ot hard mode, that the vast majority of players simply do not meet. And by that I do not mean gear and stats, that's the easiest thing to obtain and possess. As I said, unless you have a solution to the problem where people simply never learn antyhing and attempt to just chop chop the boss down like it's a minecraft tree (some try to learn but it takes them an absolute eternity. Dunno what kind of incentive you have in mind for leveling up a party with such people, but it better impress me otherwise I'm simply not taking them or going with them), this will not go anywhere and rich will keep getting richer, while the poor will stay poor. Now that we have the clarification out of the way, what is your solution to this problem I presented? And before you get to answering it, closing our eyes and pretending it doesn't exist, isn't a solution. Rewards for completion, not participation.

Why do you not look at it like this, why do players not attempt to learn the hard mode mechanics? Is it because simply its too "hard" or is it because the time and effort a casual player needs to put in do not equal the rewards thats given. Or is it simply that you have players that are just casual and do not want to learn.

 

The solution I am trying to implement is not to only reward players that can clear the dungeon, but entice players that would not do hardmode to learn and clear. There is absolutely no point rewarding players for just participating, because it would just encourage laziness "oh I tried, we got it to 80% meh, still get some reward for that" we want to encourage the community to actually learn and clear the dungeon AND get good at it. 

 

Now, since my reply is like one month due, alot of things have changed, everything got dumbed down anyway but I'd still like to see something of the likes implemented which would encourage more activity across the board especially in f8. We can't avoid the segregation between the rich and the poor, like in real life, there is always going to be "rich and poor" but what we can do is band both of them together, where in some unique cases we all help each other out. And yeah, if you get one guy that is just leeching and not helping out you can always kick him before entering the instance. 

[MassiveEgo]

Example: I have someone in our clan whose ability to learn is lesser that that of a mechanical calculator and we consistently wipe cause of them on the simplest of mechs. If they keep not learning anything, I'll not play with them in the future. How do you band us together? I have finite time to play and I'm not going to spend it on racking up deaths for the ''you died 100000000 times'' achievement. There's no merit in such venture for me.