Price for Gem Powders Next Patch?

[wefhqweig]

We needed a way to obtain Hongmoon Gem Powders in-game, and thankfully NCSoft answered by giving us the option to get them from the Dragon Express. However, the exchange rate is 25 Solar Energies for one powder, can a staff member answer if that's intended or will there be an adjustment or another way to obtain Gem Powders at a more reasonable rate? I am not saying it should be a handout or even remotely fast to obtain Gilded/Dyad gems, but that amount is insanely high, far beyond what can be considered any reasonable end-game grind. Someone on Reddit took the time to do the math and find out how long it'd take to get the powders needed for transmuting up to a Dyad and these are their results:
 

"27 heptas to 9 octas = 9*8 = 72 powders
9 octas to 3 gilded triangles = 3*32 = 96 powders
3 gilded triangles to 1 gilded square = 128 powders

So this twice, plus 512 powders to combine both squares into a dyad, is 1104 powders, or 27600 solar energy.

Assuming 4 solars per day: 6900 days (roughly 19 years)
Assuming 4.5 solars per day: 6134 days (roughly 17 years)"

Now of course, buying the Gem Powders would greatly speed up the process, but needing 1104 powders for one Dyad at the current market price, I don't think it's at all a reasonable amount for the mid-tier players working toward end-game. I'd suggest reducing the price to 8 Solar Energy for 1 powder, this is still 2 days for 1 powder, per character. It's not freebie, just a much more reasonable amount for an end-game grind to earn our gems over time. At this rate, it would still take over 5 years to save up the gem powders needed from Solar Energies alone. So, it's not like this change would severely impact the amount of gem powders we're getting, causing prices to plummet to 2 gold, making the world split in 2, and everyone to have a Dyad 2 months. I'd still prefer another source for the powders even if the price was 8 Solar Energies. I mean we're getting new gems soon, this is like another scheme to make people trove since that's the only good way to get the best gems currently. Waiting for cost reductions and some gem powder reimbursement doesn't justify this either.

Edited May 11, 2019 by wefhqweig

[Ryunosuke Takahashi]

2 hours ago, wefhqweig said:

We needed a way to obtain Hongmoon Gem Powders in-game, and thankfully NCSoft answered by giving us the option to get them from the Dragon Express. However, the exchange rate is 25 Solar Energies for one powder, can a staff member answer if that's intended or will there be an adjustment or another way to obtain Gem Powders at a more reasonable rate? I am not saying it should be a handout or even remotely fast to obtain Gilded/Dyad gems, but that amount is insanely high, far beyond what can be considered any reasonable end-game grind. Someone on Reddit took the time to do the math and find out how long it'd take to get the powders needed for transmuting up to a Dyad and these are their results:
 

"27 heptas to 9 octas = 9*8 = 72 powders
9 octas to 3 gilded triangles = 3*32 = 96 powders
3 gilded triangles to 1 gilded square = 128 powders

So this twice, plus 512 powders to combine both squares into a dyad, is 1104 powders, or 27600 solar energy.

Assuming 4 solars per day: 6900 days (roughly 19 years)
Assuming 4.5 solars per day: 6134 days (roughly 17 years)"

Now of course, buying the Gem Powders would greatly speed up the process, but needing 1104 powders for one Dyad at the current market price, I don't think it's at all a reasonable amount for the mid-tier players working toward end-game. I'd suggest reducing the price to 8 Solar Energy for 1 powder, this is still 2 days for 1 powder, per character. It's not freebie, just a much more reasonable amount for an end-game grind to earn our gems over time. At this rate, it would still take over 5 years to save up the gem powders needed from Solar Energies alone. So, it's not like this change would severely impact the amount of gem powders we're getting, causing prices to plummet to 2 gold, making the world split in 2, and everyone to have a Dyad 2 months. I'd still prefer another source for the powders even if the price was 8 Solar Energies. I mean we're getting new gems soon, this is like another scheme to make people trove since that's the only good way to get the best gems currently. Waiting for cost reductions and some gem powder reimbursement doesn't justify this either.

While I do tend to agree we need another source of powders, at some point you really do need to just think for yourself do I really need the top of the line gear / gems / soul / pet aura to do what I currently do or plan on doing in the future? In most cases no. Eventually the Gilded Triangular Gems will be the new norm, more higher gems will be released all the way up to say Gilded Octagonal Gems or even higher and to a point it just really isn't needed. It is a cash grab for a reason, they offer you slightly better stats when combining for Dyads, keep releasing more and more tiers for the people that "Just have to be the best", while theory crafters do their math and just say "Yup no way in hell I'll reach that."

Don't get me wrong we do need a better source of Hongmoon Gem Powder and it seems like that is a slight fix but honestly 1 powder per character every say 6 days is kind of over the top. I'm sure in the next patch it will be lowered (June patch). I still think at this day and age of the game since you get Hongmoon Hexagonal Gems from the story, Heptagonal require powder to make, they should be sold for Solar Energy instead and frankly be salvage for 1 powder (half of what it takes to make them).

[wefhqweig]

39 minutes ago, Kitsune Takahashi said:

While I do tend to agree we need another source of powders, at some point you really do need to just think for yourself do I really need the top of the line gear / gems / soul / pet aura to do what I currently do or plan on doing in the future? In most cases no. Eventually the Gilded Triangular Gems will be the new norm, more higher gems will be released all the way up to say Gilded Octagonal Gems or even higher and to a point it just really isn't needed. It is a cash grab for a reason, they offer you slightly better stats when combining for Dyads, keep releasing more and more tiers for the people that "Just have to be the best", while theory crafters do their math and just say "Yup no way in hell I'll reach that."

Don't get me wrong we do need a better source of Hongmoon Gem Powder and it seems like that is a slight fix but honestly 1 powder per character every say 6 days is kind of over the top. I'm sure in the next patch it will be lowered (June patch). I still think at this day and age of the game since you get Hongmoon Hexagonal Gems from the story, Heptagonal require powder to make, they should be sold for Solar Energy instead and frankly be salvage for 1 powder (half of what it takes to make them).

Do we need top of the line gear? Saying you don't need the best gear, so it's fine if it's unfair is a poor excuse. Just because you're comfortable settling for less, doesn't mean other players are. It's no one's place to tell another to stop and think "I don't need the best gear" in a progression game. The whole focus is upgrading your gear and getting stronger.
True, theory crafting saying it'll take 17 years at the rate should be taken with a grain of salt, but it still means something. People who want to play the game to get ahead hit a complete wall where they can't play the game to obtain something, and that is an issue. You can argue that you don't have to swipe to do this, plenty of people can save up gold to buy RNG boxes and 20 trove keys a day when those are around. But this is just a gamble at the chance to win end-game gems, but that is no longer playing to progress at that point. It's forcing players to use the cash shop and gamble because it's unobtainable by any fair means through normal playing, and it is not guaranteed.

While gems are one of the least cost-effective things players should invest in, maybe you should consider that the way they work is just unfair, instead of trying to impose your opinion on others that they should not aim for them. I'd argue that our staff needs to push harder to get changes made. It should be more like an end-game grind where even if it does take months to get, it is at least something you can play and grind to earn, rather than having to wait for trove and RNG boxes and gambling your gold and/or real life money. Saying that 1 Dyad costs more than a Sealed True Cosmic Soul sounds kind of funny.

[Ryunosuke Takahashi]

1 hour ago, wefhqweig said:

Do we need top of the line gear? Saying you don't need the best gear, so it's fine if it's unfair is a poor excuse. Just because you're comfortable settling for less, doesn't mean other players are. It's no one's place to tell another to stop and think "I don't need the best gear" in a progression game. The whole focus is upgrading your gear and getting stronger.
True, theory crafting saying it'll take 17 years at the rate should be taken with a grain of salt, but it still means something. People who want to play the game to get ahead hit a complete wall where they can't play the game to obtain something, and that is an issue. You can argue that you don't have to swipe to do this, plenty of people can save up gold to buy RNG boxes and 20 trove keys a day when those are around. But this is just a gamble at the chance to win end-game gems, but that is no longer playing to progress at that point. It's forcing players to use the cash shop and gamble because it's unobtainable by any fair means through normal playing, and it is not guaranteed.

While gems are one of the least cost-effective things players should invest in, maybe you should consider that the way they work is just unfair, instead of trying to impose your opinion on others that they should not aim for them. I'd argue that our staff needs to push harder to get changes made. It should be more like an end-game grind where even if it does take months to get, it is at least something you can play and grind to earn, rather than having to wait for trove and RNG boxes and gambling your gold and/or real life money. Saying that 1 Dyad costs more than a Sealed True Cosmic Soul sounds kind of funny.

Getting stronger is always good but at the same time you know yourself those dyad gems are mostly for those players that can swipe the good old credit card and not meant for normal players, while we can beat around the bush about it with countless post I just did the point right there. It is a cash grab plain and simple. Much like the current max Soul, Pet Aura, Heart which is being increased yet again, Talisman etc.. One can work towards a good point of progress but really if one isn't willing to pay money to get the goods in this day and age, one probably won't obtain it. However assuming the math was based on 1 character getting 4 solar energy a day, 11 characters would kill that down to 628 (rounded it off) days.

Not to mention one does not require a max anything in this case Gems to run anything. The effects help but you make it sound in your last post as it is really important to have those dyad. The effects are nice but like most things after a certain point it is more about showing off then actually a "need". Also, you need to reread my first post, I never said it wasn't unfair or really disagree with you, even offered a solution for them but I guess you overlooked that or misunderstood.

Edited May 12, 2019 by Kitsune Takahashi
Added to my orginal post.

[wefhqweig]

2 hours ago, Kitsune Takahashi said:

Getting stronger is always good but at the same time you know yourself those dyad gems are mostly for those players that can swipe the good old credit card and not meant for normal players, while we can beat around the bush about it with countless post I just did the point right there. It is a cash grab plain and simple. Much like the current max Soul, Pet Aura, Heart which is being increased yet again, Talisman etc.. One can work towards a good point of progress but really if one isn't willing to pay money to get the goods in this day and age, one probably won't obtain it. However assuming the math was based on 1 character getting 4 solar energy a day, 11 characters would kill that down to 628 (rounded it off) days.

Not to mention one does not require a max anything in this case Gems to run anything. The effects help but you make it sound in your last post as it is really important to have those dyad. The effects are nice but like most things after a certain point it is more about showing off then actually a "need". Also, you need to reread my first post, I never said it wasn't unfair or really disagree with you, even offered a solution for them but I guess you overlooked that or misunderstood.

I'm not saying it's really important to have those Dyads. I kind of say the opposite when I mention that they're one of the least cost-effective things to upgrade. But my point is, rather than saying "Don't bother maxing" or "You don't need max to run anything" that you should be able to achieve maxed out pieces by playing the game. Since the requirements for some parts are either impossible or just unreasonable, I'd much rather repeatedly put the attention on NCSoft than fault players for wanting to strive to reach end-game gear.

Yes, it is a cash and grab, even if they make it accessible, those few whales will still spend hundreds, and some actually even thousands on this game to get ahead first. I don't care about being first, I'm just requesting a more reasonable pacing to actually obtain Dyads as a mid-tier player. Closed mouths don't get fed, so rather than accepting it, I'd keep suggesting what I'd think would improve the game for as long as I play.

And to anyone putting in the effort to maintain playing 11 characters, you don't think all that time and gameplay has earned them a single Dyad Gem after nearly 2 years? I can agree that there should be a better balance, so people who prefer playing a single character aren't missing out so much compared to people who play alts. But, leveling up and even minimally gearing multiple characters, in my opinion, does entitle someone to getting more. They're putting in the extra work to play more characters, and require more depending on how geared they want their alts to be. 

[Grimoir]

2 hours ago, wefhqweig said:

I'm not saying it's really important to have those Dyads. I kind of say the opposite when I mention that they're one of the least cost-effective things to upgrade. But my point is, rather than saying "Don't bother maxing" or "You don't need max to run anything" that you should be able to achieve maxed out pieces by playing the game. Since the requirements for some parts are either impossible or just unreasonable, I'd much rather repeatedly put the attention on NCSoft than fault players for wanting to strive to reach end-game gear.

Yes, it is a cash and grab, even if they make it accessible, those few whales will still spend hundreds, and some actually even thousands on this game to get ahead first. I don't care about being first, I'm just requesting a more reasonable pacing to actually obtain Dyads as a mid-tier player. Closed mouths don't get fed, so rather than accepting it, I'd keep suggesting what I'd think would improve the game for as long as I play.

And to anyone putting in the effort to maintain playing 11 characters, you don't think all that time and gameplay has earned them a single Dyad Gem after nearly 2 years? I can agree that there should be a better balance, so people who prefer playing a single character aren't missing out so much compared to people who play alts. But, leveling up and even minimally gearing multiple characters, in my opinion, does entitle someone to getting more. They're putting in the extra work to play more characters, and require more depending on how geared they want their alts to be. 

If someone really has 11 characters and does dailies for mats and others on them and still does not have a good geared main....they are doing something very wrong.

On a different note:

 

Gems are actually if you look at the past a one-time investment. Each time new gem tiers are released, you get a lot of powders back, so its not really a cash grab for whales, since all they need is to get them once and they are basically set for the next gem tier.

While  i personally think 25 solar energies for a gem powder is a bit over the top, i also think you are over-dramatizing it a bit too much.

They should add gem powders as a rare drop to mandate and kaari lord, that would already help a bit.

[Snowyamur]

7 minutes ago, Grimoir said:

They should add gem powders as a rare drop to mandate and kaari lord, that would already help a bit.

Or make them obtainable by salvaging up to Hexagonal gems at the very least...

[Ryunosuke Takahashi]

8 hours ago, Snowyamur said:

Or make them obtainable by salvaging up to Hexagonal gems at the very least...

Except they don't take Hongmoon Gem Powder to make so why would you get powder from them? As my suggestion, lower Hongmoon Hexagonal gems to maybe 2-4 solar energy just because you know while not all ideal get them from the Temple of Succession quest line. Then add in Hongmoon Heptagonal Gems which still require powder for 8 Solar Energy, salvage for 1 powder per and there you go, great fix no one can really complain about.

@wefhqweigMaintaining 11 characters isn't exactly that hard in most cases if all you do on all except for the main character is the 3 quick Dailies for the Daily Challenge hence the number I threw out for solar energy by the math you posted. Until more sources or good events that players can take advantage of for the higher tier gems come into play which possibly give out Hongmoon Octagonal Gems which offer the most powder currently that a free player would have access to whether it is their only character or not, it will be the slow process of getting those gems.

It is always best to offer them solutions then just to point out the math in most cases, whether you want to be a open mouth or closed, nothing will get done without offering suggestions on a reasonable fix that they could possibly pass along to the Korean Overlords and maybe get it changed to suit our version / current age of our client.

Edited May 12, 2019 by Kitsune Takahashi

[Nihilu]

My 2 cents on this.  For Solar energy I think it is fine, it is the main source then to transfer solar energy to gold.  If we figure out everything just finishing DC gives us we actually already get quite a bit of “value” from it.  Just having them in there has a chance of reducing the gold cost to get them, thus making them more avaliable for the average player to buy from the market.  Solar energies have never been a fast source of gaining materials,.

 

Instead of making solar energies cost cheaper where that would be the main choice for players, I think seeing powders being added else where would be a better use.  Put in HM or Kaari Lord like Grimore suggested, or make it able to buy a a gem powder Fragment for like 20 Mao coins, currently Mao has nothing “special” after the equipment.  20th floor has XP charms, Outlaw Island has DGS, and CoS has Hepta Obsidians, each of them also have the respective scale for that tier.  DoA only has the Necklace and scale.

[Cyan]

On top of the addition to the Dragon Express, they have a chance to appear in the Merchant of Wonders at the price of 5 Hongmoon Gem Powders for 25 gold.

[wefhqweig]

On 5/12/2019 at 2:31 PM, Nihilu said:

My 2 cents on this.  For Solar energy I think it is fine, it is the main source then to transfer solar energy to gold.  If we figure out everything just finishing DC gives us we actually already get quite a bit of “value” from it.  Just having them in there has a chance of reducing the gold cost to get them, thus making them more avaliable for the average player to buy from the market.  Solar energies have never been a fast source of gaining materials,.

 

Instead of making solar energies cost cheaper where that would be the main choice for players, I think seeing powders being added else where would be a better use.  Put in HM or Kaari Lord like Grimore suggested, or make it able to buy a a gem powder Fragment for like 20 Mao coins, currently Mao has nothing “special” after the equipment.  20th floor has XP charms, Outlaw Island has DGS, and CoS has Hepta Obsidians, each of them also have the respective scale for that tier.  DoA only has the Necklace and scale.

It's not fine just because there's "a" source, it's so slow it's nearly irrelevant. If you look at 1 Gem Powder per character every 6 days as a good source of gold income then congrats I guess. The post is not about making an easy 13 gold a week through Solar Energies, I'm asking for a way to reliably progress our gems to maxed as a regular, decent player that doesn't require using trove or RNG boxes. And by your wording "Just having them in there has a chance of reducing gold cost" you don't have much marketing insight, there is no "chance" in price changes, if the supply increases, the price decreases, it's simple, not random. But the supply increase, 1 potential powder a week per character for the average player I'd guess would effect the price as much as the F10 special does when we can get 5 powders for 18 HM Coin each. People will probably be buying the Pentagonal Obsidians and badges instead. At best, I would say maybe it can slowly drop the price a bit because the hundreds of altoholics selling there 10 Gem Powders once a week instead of using the Solar Energies on anything else. Who knows, hopefully I'm wrong and the price tanks to a reasonable amount because it actually supplies more powders than I realize.

18 minutes ago, Cyan said:

On top of the addition to the Dragon Express, they have a chance to appear in the Merchant of Wonders at the price of 5 Hongmoon Gem Powders for 25 gold.

Thank you, appreciate the reply. Hopefully he appears and sells them enough to make a difference.

[Nihilu]

49 minutes ago, wefhqweig said:

It's not fine just because there's "a" source, it's so slow it's nearly irrelevant. If you look at 1 Gem Powder per character every 6 days as a good source of gold income then congrats I guess. The post is not about making an easy 13 gold a week through Solar Energies, I'm asking for a way to reliably progress our gems to maxed as a regular, decent player that doesn't require using trove or RNG boxes. And by your wording "Just having them in there has a chance of reducing gold cost" you don't have much marketing insight, there is no "chance" in price changes, if the supply increases, the price decreases, it's simple, not random. But the supply increase, 1 potential powder a week per character for the average player I'd guess would effect the price as much as the F10 special does when we can get 5 powders for 18 HM Coin each. People will probably be buying the Pentagonal Obsidians and badges instead. At best, I would say maybe it can slowly drop the price a bit because the hundreds of altoholics selling there 10 Gem Powders once a week instead of using the Solar Energies on anything else. Who knows, hopefully I'm wrong and the price tanks to a reasonable amount because it actually supplies more powders than I realize.

I think you missed the second paragraph of my comment.  I didn’t say that having 1 source was good enough, I said for solar energy it is fine (meaning cost).  The second paragraph was where I would like to see gem powders added more to the game.  Put it in content that could use a bit more of a reward.  

 

Right now HM and Kaari lord don’t give enough for needing an orb vs just doing the daily for CS.  These bosses I feel should have more added to them to give more benefit to needing an item to do part of a dungeon.  The second area I think could use some additions to bring it in line with the other similar areas is Den of Ancient.  Besides needing it for equipment, it has only blue scales as possible currency rewards.  Adding them there at a slightly high cost (as it would be tradeable  vs the other solo areas that only have bound materials) it would make it a non rng way to get it, but not be to easy / fast that people could max out gems to fast.

 

I understand supply and demand, but the reason I said “chance” of lowering it is it will matter how many players deem the cost worth it in the end.  Till players get their new dyad gar/obsidian they will probably be focusing on obsidians.  After that there isn’t a large amount of things that imo are end game oriented (XP charm being the main one), so those end game players might decide to buy them to assist in their gem upgrades (lowering demand) or for gold (increasing supply), if that was to happen the prices won’t change over night due to the slow nature of it, but could in the end cause a change. Other factors like players hoarding for next obsidian upgrade and the possibility of more players upgrading there gems could alter this equation too.

[Trilioh]

I stopped reading about half way through the thread, but it seems people are missing the point:
25 solar energies is way too much for a single gem powder.

Max gem isn't necessary? ok. Adding drops somewhere is better? sure. Etc? probably..

But still, none of that changes the point: 25 solar energies is waaay too much for a single gem powder!
 

No one seems to dispute that, and "counter" arguments here are just "yes, but" topic diversions.

 

The only players I can imagine buying that are new players who don't know any better, making it kind of a tourist trap.

Like oh so many other things in the game that chase the new people away. But that's another topic ;)

Edited May 14, 2019 by Trilioh

[Nihilu]

1 hour ago, Trilioh said:

I stopped reading about half way through the thread, but it seems people are missing the point:
25 solar energies is way too much for a single gem powder.

Max gem isn't necessary? ok. Adding drops somewhere is better? sure. Etc? probably..

But still, none of that changes the point: 25 solar energies is waaay too much for a single gem powder!
 

No one seems to dispute that, and "counter" arguments here are just "yes, but" topic diversions.

 

The only players I can imagine buying that are new players who don't know any better, making it kind of a tourist trap.

Like oh so many other things in the game that chase the new people away. But that's another topic ;)

It isn’t that we missed the point of the thread but more we don’t fully agree with it.  In my case I don’t agree with it because the likely hood of them lowering it that far is astronomically unlikely based on the other value of products in the solar exchange.

 

If I had to take a guess on what players value most for their solar energy it would be badges (which is hard to put a true value on as it is a one and done situation) and obsidian gems.  So I will use obsidian gems as my example.  Pentas will be 10 solar energy after the update, so most people count it as 30 for a hexagon, but the difference between that and normal gems are the other material needed to upgrade it.  Pentas take 4 black stones to go to hexa, the solar energy exchange would value a fragment at 3 solar energy, which that I think is out dated so I will lower it down to 1.  This means to get a hexagonal using only solar energy would then cost you 110 solar energy.  If we compare that to hexa normal gem -> hepta using solar energy (buying hexa gems and gem powders). It would be 74 solar energies.

 

Now you will and can argue no one in their right mind would buy the black stones, or maybe even hexas because there are to many better ways to obtain them, and you are right.  But that is where I was getting too, the solar energy exchange is more of a supplement to other activities for upgrading gear.  If we try and have them make it the main source, they won’t listen as they probably have a value figured out already for solar energy.  So my suggestions is to try and give them different ideas on how to implement gem powders.  Keeping into account that they are only used in gem upgrades and the only thing being used in gem upgrades aside from gold, this means that the supply should not equal that of items that are used in far higher quantities (and the game is F2P so need to keep time dink’s in the game).

Edited May 14, 2019 by Nihilu