Please enable account trading and reduce amounts of celestial goods needed for upgrading

[Astarae]

Currently some of the mats only drop from the last boss in the dungeon, making it difficult or very slow or near impossible to get things like the steel for upgrades.    Also, sometimes it would really be helpful if account trading was available for many of those mats, since they are so rare.

 

Thanks!

 

 

[Grimoir]

That is the entire point of the game....if you cant clear the last boss then obviously you shouldnt be running around with the weapon. Makes sense doesnt it?

Personally they shouldnt even make the weapon cores sellable / tradable, because of those things any gear you earn from raids becomes worthless when others get it for free.

 

not to mention they already cut the steels needed by half...

Edited May 1, 2019 by Grimoir

[Astarae]

On 4/30/2019 at 11:46 PM, Grimoir said:

That is the entire point of the game....if you cant clear the last boss then obviously you shouldnt be running around with the weapon. Makes sense doesnt it?

Nope.  Most people get their equipment needed to clear a final boss *before* that boss.  Getting it after?  What's the point?  Do you stand around posing or just trolling in forums?

 

Besides -- it costs 120 steels to upgrade a celestial weap and most of us didn't get 120 steels when we cleared the final boss.  Not everyone is as privileged as you -- make sense?  

 

Interesting fact about the newer generations starting in and after the late baby boomers: unlike previous generations that generally helped society and others get ahead, the newer group actively works against others getting the same benefits -- for them, getting rewards is really only rewarding if others *don't*.  Their satisfaction comes from knowing others won't get those rewards, vs. those who like helping society and others advance.  

Quote

Personally they shouldnt even make the weapon cores sellable / tradable, because of those things any gear you earn from raids becomes worthless when others get it for free.

See... and there it is -- as soon as others are able to get it for anything -- what they pay is ignored and the gear is considered worthless.  No one is getting those items for "free" -- they pay for them.  Or does the fact that you benefit from technology mean that it is worthless and you have stolen it (got it for free)?  You didn't create the transistor, TV, cars, air-travel, any modern conveniences that you likely take for granted, but you are perfectly willing to live off of the advances made by others.  Yet here, if some pioneer the way through to end bosses and become one of the first to do so, you are saying such things are worthless?  

 

Every group of people that comes after "the first" will have an easier time if only because the knowledge is out there.  There's also a major influence in making such things more widely available and cheaper -- economies of scale.  When you have 1000 people purchasing an outfit like custom bloodlust, whatever profit comes is 1000 times the same profit earned by "the first".  Which is really more valuable?  Each is valuable at the price point they were able to acquire the goods at.  No one is getting it for free, and those who get it first don't lose the value they have already received -- but they can squander it and be bitter that they didn't make better use of it.  Or they can see others making better use that got something more cheaply and pulling ahead of those who don't make good use of their early rewards.

Quote

not to mention they already cut the steels needed by half...

 

You make it sound like inflation "stops" at some point and that prices for goods don't keep going down.  It is especially true in technology and virtual goods -- it doesn't cost anymore to sell the next 10,000 items more cheaply.  The first item takes more work and effort because no one had done it before.  But later on, it doesn't cost more work -- and those who can only buy things at lower price points can be served without developers being required to develop something new.

 

It doesn't matter if the price of steels was 1000 times higher.  Salt used to be high priced and used as money.  Now -- it's cheap and is a commodity.  That's they way life works.  The problem is you not realizing how privileged you are and not realizing there are others out there that will want happiness as well.  If your happiness depends on the misery of others, you are all but guaranteed to have a miserable life.

 

Edited May 2, 2019 by Astarae
spelling correction

[Grimoir]

Dont get me wrong but you already dont know what you are talking about.....maxing out the weapon takes 99 steels now not 120. Before the reduced the costs it took approx 200+.

 

what i am saying is, they should stop making raid gear available by other means, that completely defeats the purpose of working for said gear. Those that cant clear raid, shouldnt have the gear from it and use the alternative paths for weapons. thats what they are for. There shouldnt be any sellable materials.

Because if someone cant do a raid now, he certainly wont do it later or even when anew one comes out, so for them having the raid path weapon is pointless. It should be rewarding to have it, it should mean something.

[lSinonl]

TT is still the latest raid available and you want to get everything for free? You don't need the TT weapon to clear Boss 4. VT Gear is more than enough. TT was already nerfed hard and with the awakening patch dps shouldn't be an issue anymore. As long as your raid has some mech knwolege and vt gear you should be able to clear TT easily.

[Astarae]

19 minutes ago, lSinonl said:

TT is still the latest raid available and you want to get everything for free?

1st) Show me where it says free.  Stop erecting strawmen.

19 minutes ago, lSinonl said:

 

You don't need the TT weapon to clear Boss 4.

How do you know what I need?  you don't.

19 minutes ago, lSinonl said:

 As long as your raid has some mech knwolege and vt gear you should be able to clear TT easily.

Right now my raid has just me in it, and unless there are no lazy autodeaths, and no multi-person puzzels, then fine, but I don't think so.  

39 minutes ago, Grimoir said:

Dont get me wrong but you already dont know what you are talking about.....maxing out the weapon takes 99 steels now not 120. Before the reduced the costs it took approx 200+.

Don't get me wrong, but you really need to play the game.  Takes 15 steels for 3-4, 4-5, 5-6, and 25 for 6-7, 7-8, 8-9, that's 75+45 and that adds up to 120.  Obviously you can't support what you are saying through any refutation of facts or what is common among humans, so you just ignore it.

 

39 minutes ago, Grimoir said:

 

what i am saying is, they should stop making raid gear available by other means, that completely defeats the purpose of working for said gear. Those that cant clear raid, shouldnt have the gear from it

Why not?  What moral reason is there other than your personal glorification is there for you saying what other people should or should not be able to do?  

 

39 minutes ago, Grimoir said:

and use the alternative paths for weapons. thats what they are for. 

If the alternative paths were as good, then fine.  They are not so your entire argument ends there.

39 minutes ago, Grimoir said:

Because if someone cant do a raid now, he certainly wont do it later or even when anew one comes out, so for them having the raid path weapon is pointless. It should be rewarding to have it, it should mean something.

Why?  Maybe it means being able to help others in a group rather than kicking people for not having aransu for BT, as that's today's qualifications.  I don't care if it is a raid weap or not, as long as it is 2x whatever the raid weap is.  Fine?  You'd be fine with that -- cuz you could keep your raid weap and I'd get my alternative -- I mean the fact that they aren't equal wouldn't bother you right?

 

And what does having an outfit as a reward have to do with being good at pvp?  Nothing.  Why not give them something for pvp?  At the same time fix the 'no pvp' flag so those that don't wanna play don't have to.  That's fair too, right?  

[Nihilu]

I posted this just yesterday in another thread about wings and I think it fits this too XD.

 

”I actually think more of the reason raid materials is restricted to characters is more for the accesories /high end soul shields then for the lower stage.  If they let you trade over raid mats early on then you could easily transfer wings over to your main from just running weeklies.  F2P games aim to keep people coming back, and if made to easy to farm it, in theory, could make it less people would be as inclined to keep running the material after a “short” while.  

 

Thus when there is more to the game they can make the last raids matt’s tradable (or bound to account).  It is an artificial way to extend game play before major updates, as players will always burn through content faster then it can be created.”

 

The game slowly introduce new ways to get high end mats as the game progresses, rather through Daily Dash, events, or just increase the rewards from said dungeon.  It is important for people to keep feeling like they are progressing, but as major raid updates are about a year apart, they need to keep reasons for players to keep coming back.  TT is still the highest end raid, and even after we get ET it will be a little while before a descent amount of people are clearing it weekly.  So we still have a bit of life left in TT.

[Grimoir]

8 hours ago, Astarae said:

Why not?  What moral reason is there other than your personal glorification is there for you saying what other people should or should not be able to do?  

Simple: so you are saying someone who has not set a single foot into raid should have a raid weapon, and thats not in any way unfair towards someone who did raid since day one, and worked months for it to clear it and get it?

 

8 hours ago, Astarae said:

If the alternative paths were as good, then fine.  They are not so your entire argument ends there.

They are not supposed to be equal....raid path should always remain superior to the alternative path, that is the entire point of working for gear and being rewarded for harder content.

The current alternative paths are  actually not bad compared to the raid paths. they do less dps, but not that much less.

 

8 hours ago, Astarae said:

Why?  Maybe it means being able to help others in a group rather than kicking people for not having aransu for BT, as that's today's qualifications.  I don't care if it is a raid weap or not, as long as it is 2x whatever the raid weap is.  Fine?  You'd be fine with that -- cuz you could keep your raid weap and I'd get my alternative -- I mean the fact that they aren't equal wouldn't bother you right?

See my reply above.

 

8 hours ago, Astarae said:

And what does having an outfit as a reward have to do with being good at pvp?  Nothing.  Why not give them something for pvp?  At the same time fix the 'no pvp' flag so those that don't wanna play don't have to.  That's fair too, right?  

What does this have to do with anything? i mean i dont see what this is referring to lol.

[Ryunosuke Takahashi]

17 hours ago, Astarae said:

Nope.  Most people get their equipment needed to clear a final boss *before* that boss.  Getting it after?  What's the point?  Do you stand around posing or just trolling in forums?

 

Besides -- it costs 120 steels to upgrade a celestial weap and most of us didn't get 120 steels when we cleared the final boss.  Not everyone is as privileged as you -- make sense?  

 

Interesting fact about the newer generations starting in and after the late baby boomers: unlike previous generations that generally helped society and others get ahead, the newer group actively works against others getting the same benefits -- for them, getting rewards is really only rewarding if others *don't*.  Their satisfaction comes from knowing others won't get those rewards, vs. those who like helping society and others advance.  

See... and there it is -- as soon as others are able to get it for anything -- what they pay is ignored and the gear is considered worthless.  No one is getting those items for "free" -- they pay for them.  Or does the fact that you benefit from technology mean that it is worthless and you have stolen it (got it for free)?  You didn't create the transistor, TV, cars, air-travel, any modern conveniences that you likely take for granted, but you are perfectly willing to live off of the advances made by others.  Yet here, if some pioneer the way through to end bosses and become one of the first to do so, you are saying such things are worthless?  

 

Every group of people that comes after "the first" will have an easier time if only because the knowledge is out there.  There's also a major influence in making such things more widely available and cheaper -- economies of scale.  When you have 1000 people purchasing an outfit like custom bloodlust, whatever profit comes is 1000 times the same profit earned by "the first".  Which is really more valuable?  Each is valuable at the price point they were able to acquire the goods at.  No one is getting it for free, and those who get it first don't lose the value they have already received -- but they can squander it and be bitter that they didn't make better use of it.  Or they can see others making better use that got something more cheaply and pulling ahead of those who don't make good use of their early rewards.

 

You make it sound like inflation "stops" at some point and that prices for goods don't keep going down.  It is especially true in technology and virtual goods -- it doesn't cost anymore to sell the next 10,000 items more cheaply.  The first item takes more work and effort because no one had done it before.  But later on, it doesn't cost more work -- and those who can only buy things at lower price points can be served without developers being required to develop something new.

 

It doesn't matter if the price of steels was 1000 times higher.  Salt used to be high priced and used as money.  Now -- it's cheap and is a commodity.  That's they way life works.  The problem is you not realizing how privileged you are and not realizing there are others out there that will want happiness as well.  If your happiness depends on the misery of others, you are all but guaranteed to have a miserable life.

 

First off getting the weapon before clearing final boss. I don't know what game you play but without someone clearing last boss first using the previous raid weapon, they can't get the weapon before clearing it (of course not counting trove option).

You are correct with the steel amount with a minor mistake, It is actually 125 if you go completely from Aransu 9 to Grand Celestial 9 which honestly w/o access to said raid or even without a steady raid doing Nightfall Sanctuary is well stupid, dumb (feel free to pick a word you'd like to use here). While in most cases the weapon itself would offer more damage the smarter thing would be going Aransu 9 to Shadow / Skyforge up to 6 then switch over to Grand Celestial 6 cutting the cost of steel under 100 (99 for argument sake). Which even if you only managed to go to Grand Celestial 6 you'd still save a good bit of steel. Now will it ever be bound to account like that of hive queen hearts and raven king souls, probably as more and higher tier raids are added making the current raid (nightfall) more the norm.

Please do not base other's requirements to join "their" raid as the bare min. to actually do the said raid because you will just give yourself a headache because in all honestly what people require others to have isn't exactly what you "need" to clear said raid.

Edited May 2, 2019 by Kitsune Takahashi

[Astarae]

15 hours ago, Grimoir said:

Simple: so you are saying someone who has not set a single foot into raid should have a raid weapon, and thats not in any way unfair towards someone who did raid since day one, and worked months for it to clear it and get it?

If the person who didn't step foot in there is willing to pay money for it, is it fair to let you have it for free just by playing the game?  They don't charge for access to the game, but the sure can charge for other things, or how do you think you getting it for free is going to pay for the game?  If everyone got it like you, they'd have no income and the game would shut down immediately.    You are taking the road for being cheap and claiming this give you the right to lord your accomplishment over others.  But you aren't supporting the game by allowing others to to buy what they want.  

 

In the thread on clothing, someone summed it up -- they are a newish player, and so many outfits they want -- but they see no reason to play the game if the nice items are never going to be available for them to get.  So where does the game get new players if it alienates and shuts them out as you indicate the game should go.

15 hours ago, Grimoir said:

They are not supposed to be equal....raid path should always remain superior to the alternative path, that is the entire point of working for gear and being rewarded for harder content.

Who pays for your reward?  Why do you think you deserve a reward when you not only don't pay for it yourself, but actively work against others being able to pay for an outfit or accessory.    This game is not a public service, and its not paid for by good samaritans.  It's paid for by a company wanting to make profit from it -- and how are you helping?

15 hours ago, Grimoir said:

The current alternative paths are  actually not bad compared to the raid paths. they do less dps, but not that much less.

Actually, perhaps more fair to the company and players who support them might be you get the dps you pay for.  If you get it for free, the the dps would be some base value, but if you bought it in F10, then different levels of item would come with different amounts of bonus points you pay for and apply.  Sounds perfectly fair, cuz I don't see how it is fair for you to play for free and demand that be the only way to get top items.  Only getting things out of the game that you spend time gaming to get, that should be least rewarded because you get to play the game while earning the item.  But your actions to work against those who might want to pay for it feels like you are trying to sabotage the game -- to kill it off.  So you  asked how it was fair that someone pays for something and you get it for free by doing an online puzzle (the game).  Good question.  Maybe you shouldn't get top gear.

[Soloniel]

Of course people get their equipment needed to clear a final boss *before* that boss for do it, like BT with VT/TT gear required, VT with TT+ gear required, etc.

[Nihilu]

5 hours ago, Astarae said:

If the person who didn't step foot in there is willing to pay money for it, is it fair to let you have it for free just by playing the game?  They don't charge for access to the game, but the sure can charge for other things, or how do you think you getting it for free is going to pay for the game?  If everyone got it like you, they'd have no income and the game would shut down immediately.    You are taking the road for being cheap and claiming this give you the right to lord your accomplishment over others.  But you aren't supporting the game by allowing others to to buy what they want. 

If we are talking about funds for the company, the current method of releasing it first through only obtaining through raid, then slowly through other content/microtransactions is probably the most profitable.  If what you said earlier about the current generation (never studied it so don’t want to make the same claim) about thriving about having something others don’t is correct, then game companies need to find a way to target those gamers.  They can encourage spending by locking the materials through harder content, making those who want to be unique/better be more willing to spend money to upgrade their other gear to get it first.  While later adding it in other means then can get sales from those not willing to do the raids.  Players who do raids aren’t getting it for free, it is a time sink then, and the longer you can keep players in the game the more likely they will be willing to spend a bit of their money into the game.

6 hours ago, Astarae said:

Actually, perhaps more fair to the company and players who support them might be you get the dps you pay for.  If you get it for free, the the dps would be some base value, but if you bought it in F10, then different levels of item would come with different amounts of bonus points you pay for and apply.  Sounds perfectly fair, cuz I don't see how it is fair for you to play for free and demand that be the only way to get top items.  Only getting things out of the game that you spend time gaming to get, that should be least rewarded because you get to play the game while earning the item.  But your actions to work against those who might want to pay for it feels like you are trying to sabotage the game -- to kill it off.  So you  asked how it was fair that someone pays for something and you get it for free by doing an online puzzle (the game).  Good question.  Maybe you shouldn't get top gear.

The current mind set of a large populous of gamers actually makes it very hard for companies.  If you look around players don’t want P2W aspects (including stuff comparable to oils for soul) and at the same time aren’t willing to pay premiums to play a game (and sometimes even buy a copy of the game).  The would leave cosmetics to satisfy cooperations, which I don’t think would fly.   But one thing I can tell you for sure, is having strait up power items in the shop, not just their mats, would cause a large exodus from the game.  Everyone wants to at least feel like they can have a chance to be at the top.  Limiting anything behind money with no in game way to get it causes major issues (look at current gem powders).  It would be sabotaging to allow to many players to get gear just through spending, as it would discourage those who work hard to get it.  I might not agree with Grimoir to the extreme of never letting people get those mats, but it can’t be done to early (and should be avoided for top gear) to encourage longer time playing the game.

[Astarae]

On 5/3/2019 at 6:44 AM, Nihilu said:

 Players who do raids aren’t getting it for free, it is a time sink then, and the longer you can keep players in the game the more likely they will be willing to spend a bit of their money into the game.

I understand that they can spend recreation time, playing a game in order to earn 'credits' towards purchasing some end-game

type item.  However, it is clear that some people who get high-level items do so through doing what they would likely *want* to do anyway as a form of recreation or play -- not saying everyone, but if they were not interested in spending 18/7 (allowing 6 hours for sleep & food ;-)) online or in the game, they likely would not be among the elite who can do the end level dungeons.  So they are being rewarded for doing something they would likely do anyway.  If you want to talk about number of hours spent in game, recently, I think my game client scolded me for not having taken a break in 34 hours.  Since I stay at home most of the time, gaming, programming and reading  are things I do alot of.  Speaking conservatively, I would say I spent something on the order of at least 50 hours a week, though I wouldn't be surprised if that total frequently went over 70.  

 

The first clan that was doing any raids didn't have any room in their "1" vt raid/week.  When 'tt' came out, I convinced the clan leader that we should do a progressive to learn that dungeon.  However, progressively he kept upping the requirements for that raid until when it came around, he shelved his remaining requirements (equipment, DPS) and was convinced by his vt raid group to only take experienced players into 'tt' and that he shouldn't consider me because I didn' t have all the mechs from current dungeons and VT memorized and had never even done VT.  I was pretty sure I could deal with it if I started in at the same level, but they came up with bogus reasons on how I hadn't "paid my dues" by mastering all the lower level dungeons. 

 

Result was 9-10/12 of the players in the TT raid were same players as were in the VT raid.  He claimed that I hadn't been the one to convince him to do TT and deleted material from the discord that would have shown otherwise.  He also claimed I wasn't going on runs with the other clan members -- the ones leading runs were mostly the ones in the vt-raid trying to reserve the tt-run as well.  A few at first, but later most of that group had put me on ignore in the game, so they wouldn't see my requests to join parties they made, and even putting myself right in front of them, they'd just go around me and later claim the never saw me or saw my applying.  I had screen shots of the planning talks of the tt group and him saying it would be a progressive -- with him later adding increasing requirements that I passed until the final week when I and some favorite girl were among the lowest rank for the DPS requirements, but with a trove in the last week and various people getting new badges, he canceled any competitions and announced who would be going.

 

He ignored the fact that requiring a balanced group of high level players was completely at odds with it being a progressive, teaching raid and ignored that another main purpose was to open up raiding spots in the clan allow other members of the 70-person clan a shot at raid experience.raid training.  Instead, his high school buds reserved that time-slot as well and I was shown the door for having created "drama".  In spring of last year. 

 

 I've run into other perplexing and confounding situations in other clans from ego maniacs to many who didn't like answering questions and told me to go find out myself -- exactly those things that others said I should learn from my clan.  Normally I'd read game documentation or in almost every game I've played, a game-guide -- sometimes with me having to buy a second or third guide as the first became too dogeared and torn from usage, but this game doesn't have such and if it did it would be out of date w/in less than a year.

 

If the raid content were doable solo, I might have a chance, though I don't have the coordination to really handle hong or M'ao.  So I don't see the game as providing enough options for non-elites who who really just wanted to have fun.  I see so many newer players walking because of the games hostility toward new users and lower level players, and rather than walking, I'm trying to find, at least, what I need to progress, but after the emotional battering i've gotten from various clans, I'm really not feeling good about the clan system.  And now, after this merger -- faction chat has become a toxic cesspool that I have to keep off for long periods, but I can't believe how much people substitute bad behavior and swearing for any sort of rational discussion.

On 5/3/2019 at 6:44 AM, Nihilu said:

The current mind set of a large populous of gamers actually makes it very hard for companies.  If you look around players don’t want P2W aspects...

I wouldn't be heavily in favor of those either, BUT having spent most of my life in the past 18 months in this game, yet getting more and more resistance and toxic people  pushing back that I'm getting more upset.  One gamer friend I see regularly and others I've met online see things as getting more toxic -- competitive back-stabbing.  

On 5/3/2019 at 6:44 AM, Nihilu said:

(including stuff comparable to oils for soul) and at the same time aren’t willing to pay premiums to play a game (and sometimes even buy a copy of the game).

Well, I do pay the premiums and have spent more on this game than any other game in my life.  I could easily fund a car payment or two with the money I spend in this game -- and I would like to see it better rewarded, which is why I'm pushing for more things lightening up.

On 5/3/2019 at 6:44 AM, Nihilu said:

 The would leave cosmetics to satisfy cooperations, which I don’t think would fly.   But one thing I can tell you for sure, is having strait up power items in the shop, not just their mats, would cause a large exodus from the game.  Everyone wants to at least feel like they can have a chance to be at the top.

Not really.  just the largest segment of toxic players in their earlier 20's and late teens.  I have no problem with others being able to get things -- like I see someone wanting the Cutting Edge costume int he shop -- a costume I have, and my reaction is yeah, why not, its a cool costume and more people who want it should be able to get it.  I don't need or want to be on top of others to be happy, but I don't want to feel like baggage or deadweight -- especially because if I don't, at least, have good equipment I'll get kicked or not be able to handle dungeons.  I'm high enough now to do all by the highest dungeons in F8 and usually no matter if on my gunner or FM, I have to recruit for the mid-daily-challenge dungeons -- and when i do, I don't advertise for equipment, I look for people.

On 5/3/2019 at 6:44 AM, Nihilu said:

 Limiting anything behind money with no in game way to get it causes major issues (look at current gem powders).

Who wants that?  I think there should be better ways to get all of the equipment/items/goods, *in game*, with store purchases being secondary -- but ways in game have to be doable by non-experts.  The reason the pay thing comes up is because other ways of getting things has failed. 

On 5/3/2019 at 6:44 AM, Nihilu said:

It would be sabotaging to allow to many players to get gear just through spending, as it would discourage those who work hard to get it.  

Um...*halt*....two things if you are saying about getting gear, "Just through spending", meaning "only through spending" I would STRONGLY disagree.  But having things only be available to elites will discourage both new player who don't want to feel like they will forever be 2-3 years behind as well as current players who have put in years of effort and also are shut out.  I have better equipment than many because I *need* it to keep parity, and I quickly tell anyone that in any clan I'm in.  A point that keeps coming up now are those that tell me I should be able to do alot more damage with my equipment.  Nope.  I don't/I can't.  I have about 10-30% slower nerve conduction impulses when they have tested my hands, so I'm.  The only way I could do better would be to have some interface into the game that I could write a program to assist me with.  I do have a degree in computer science, but just as I heard that the elites complained about assisted script kiddies (which would bug me too, cuz they didn't write their scripts -- but how would anyone "police" that?)