TruePizza

Name release

Recommended Posts

The support said i should make a post in this forum if i wanted to get a name that is reserved by a founder pack so here it is.

I think if an account is inactive for a year+ there names should be available to take with name change vouchers if they ever come back they could get their name back i guess.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Junamaki   

Definitely not, people bought founders pack to reserve their name for a reason, I don’t care how long that person is inactive for they should not lose their name because they paid to have it. As long as it’s non founder pack users and NC sends an email to warn the person to log in or otherwise their name will become available then I’ll support releasing names on inactive accounts.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

You can already get inactive non founder pack names without a problem you only need to ask the support and have 2 name change vouchers. However it is not possible at all to get founder pack names but i feel like people should be able to use the names when the founder pack users have not played for a long time. If they ever come back they could just get their name back.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Junamaki   
1 hour ago, TruePizza said:

You can already get inactive non founder pack names without a problem you only need to ask the support and have 2 name change vouchers. However it is not possible at all to get founder pack names but i feel like people should be able to use the names when the founder pack users have not played for a long time. If they ever come back they could just get their name back.

I’m aware that you can get them but I was talking about the releasing of names by NC without someone having to request the name first.

 

No one should ever be allowed to get founder pack names, they showed their support for the game by spending money before it even launched without knowing how things would go. NC also stated they would not release founder pack names. If you want a name that a founder pack user has then just add a symbol or something.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Grimoir   

Fully agree with Junamaki. One of the founder pack perks that you paid for was name reservation, so people bought names with real money and as such have the full right to keep them as long as they want without even playing the game if they choose so.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

They wont ever give you a name thats founder pack reserved. I find it very unfair after not playing 3 years to still have the privilege to keep them. I understand the legal issues behind it but its just plain stupid and doesnt make any sense to me why someone that hasnt played 3 years would :

 

1. Come back

 

2. Still care about the name

 

3. Cry about their name being taken after 3 years of inactivity.

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Grimoir   
40 minutes ago, FlockUndead said:

They wont ever give you a name thats founder pack reserved. I find it very unfair after not playing 3 years to still have the privilege to keep them. I understand the legal issues behind it but its just plain stupid and doesnt make any sense to me why someone that hasnt played 3 years would :

 

1. Come back

 

2. Still care about the name

 

3. Cry about their name being taken after 3 years of inactivity.

 

Take for example this:

 

People with founders used names they use in other games...which means there is a certain reputation tied to them. I would not want someone to take my name and then run around with it especially if i paid for it. The fact that i wouldnt be playing for 3 years is none of your business. I paid for it , its mine, pretty simple concept, and its not stupid at all.

Everyone had the chance to buy the founder packs and reserve the names. If they didnt want to or werent fast enough...tough luck, but that is not a reason to take away something that it rightfully not yours.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
3 hours ago, Grimoir said:

Take for example this:

 

People with founders used names they use in other games...which means there is a certain reputation tied to them. I would not want someone to take my name and then run around with it especially if i paid for it. The fact that i wouldnt be playing for 3 years is none of your business. I paid for it , its mine, pretty simple concept, and its not stupid at all.

Everyone had the chance to buy the founder packs and reserve the names. If they didnt want to or werent fast enough...tough luck, but that is not a reason to take away something that it rightfully not yours.

We agree to disagree

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
3 hours ago, Grimoir said:

Take for example this:

 

People with founders used names they use in other games...which means there is a certain reputation tied to them. I would not want someone to take my name and then run around with it especially if i paid for it. The fact that i wouldnt be playing for 3 years is none of your business. I paid for it , its mine, pretty simple concept, and its not stupid at all.

Everyone had the chance to buy the founder packs and reserve the names. If they didnt want to or werent fast enough...tough luck, but that is not a reason to take away something that it rightfully not yours.

I get your point however i think people who have not touched this game for years do not care who currently has their name. The Problem is that you cant get to talk to them because they are inactive. That is why i think people should be able to "borrow" founder pack names and whenever the owner of the name comes back he should be able to claim it back.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Astarae   
3 hours ago, Grimoir said:

Everyone had the chance to buy the founder packs and reserve the names. If they didnt want to or werent fast enough...tough luck, but that is not a reason to take away something that it rightfully not yours.

Even the state reserves the right to reclaim unclaimed property.  Having money in a bank doesn't mean it will stay secure in perpetuity.  If there is nothing on an account for some number of years even real property can be forfeited.  Do you really think names that are untouched years later would get more more protection than real property?  Do you think it would even merit getting the same protection?

 

In internet time, 3-5 years might be more like 15-25 years in RL...Think about how long most websites last -- especially if they take a 3 year hiatus.  That's why in many states companies are not allowed to sell lifetime agreements or memberships (usually limited to 3 years).  Had a health club membership costing hundreds of dollars, new, that they wanted to sell as a lifetime membership, but ended up having people pay a $5 renewal fee every 3 years.  Compared to the $700 initial cost 2 decades ago, it was nothing, but when I moved out of that area, I let it lapse because I couldn't really use it anymore.  Given that NCSoft has offices in California it wouldn't be unreasonable to assume that CA law *might* have some jurisdiction, in which case, a life-time membership could be 3 years.  

 

I'm not a lawyer, but instantly assuming that your have a reservation for all eternity might sound a bit presumptuous  to some.

 

Certainly if the name belongs to someone who is no longer around, how much will they care if the name gets reused?  Even if they are around, if they haven't touched the game in 3 years, how important would that name be, and would they even know?

 

As far as "everyone had the chance"...as soon as you say something like that -- you lost me, since I know I didn't have the

chance.  I didn't even know about it.  Just because someone got something 'first' doesn't mean forever entitlement.  Just ask Native Americans how  well being first protected their property.

 

Everyone has to live with those who come after them.  So for those founders who have an issue, they can speak up, but if they

have no issue and don't speak up, why should their reservation be assumed?  How can you presume to speak for all of them

as a class?  Aren't you taking ownership of their issue without their consent and assuming they'd want it reserved when they 

might want it swept under the carpet?  There are those who file lawsuits for the "right to be forgotten", how is it that you 

are fighting for some such people w/o knowing what they would want?

 

 

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
SalemK   

I can't think of any game that has actually taken founder pack reserved names away from players tbh. That's seen as an exclusive perk, it's just like how kickstarters are given certain perks for backing a game. One game I can think of off the top of my head is Friday the 13th because many kept asking for an exclusive skin that backers were told they would be the only ones to have access to, that's no different than buying a founders pack to reserve a name because you're under the impression that you will be the only one to have access to that reserved name.

 

It might sound silly but at the end of the day it's like they paid to have that name exclusively for them. The whole borrowing a founder's name could be bad because think of how that could ruin that person's rep in game if the person using their name is being an ❤ ❤ ❤ ❤ to others and then the founder member returns to the game.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, SalemK said:

I can't think of any game that has actually taken founder pack reserved names away from players tbh. That's seen as an exclusive perk, it's just like how kickstarters are given certain perks for backing a game. One game I can think of off the top of my head is Friday the 13th because many kept asking for an exclusive skin that backers were told they would be the only ones to have access to, that's no different than buying a founders pack to reserve a name because you're under the impression that you will be the only one to have access to that reserved name.

 

It might sound silly but at the end of the day it's like they paid to have that name exclusively for them. The whole borrowing a founder's name could be bad because think of how that could ruin that person's rep in game if the person using their name is being an ❤ ❤ ❤ ❤ to others and then the founder member returns to the game.

Well it would be pretty easy to tell if an other char has that name now because they would most likely be another class with gear from 3 years ago

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Showta   

:YeharaBig:

 

Team Release the names tbh!!!

 

I've been here all 4 years, from beta to now and if I had quit 3 years ago of course I wouldnt come back expecting to still have my name, know why? Because I wouldnt be coming back, hello!!!!!! I don't care if they paid 20 bucks or even the 120bucks-honey that was 3 or 4 years ago now. That's old money. We thrive off that new money, they're not paying any bills around here anymore. "They're a veteran" yeah so was your first kiss, you still want them showing up to your baby shower 10 years later to pick your babies name right in front of the spouse you're happy with right now?? They're irrelevant, sorry! They hold no power, have no opinion. They're not reading this right now and they let their BnS emails go straight to spam.

 

THAT SAID ok so how to do it

 

First, send them all emails. Give them a month or two to log in.

Let everyone else know as well, scream from the rooftops that in a month or two name releases are coming

This gives people time to either check their emails and go, "Oh I better log in to keep those" or to tell their friends "Hey, you better log in to keep that name!"
Either way it's a bit of a win because this gets a bunch of older players to download the game and log in again.

If they cant be bothered to log in then they don't care enough and thus lose their name

 

What about for the rare cases that will suddenly the very next day come out of the woodwork and say "Oh I only couldnt play BnS for x amount of years because I was studying abroad on mars, this isnt fair" If they paid 100+, maybe. Maybe give them back the name and the person who took it a name voucher-but only under the condition that that person log in. They have to log in first. If they dont even have the game downloaded and they're pleading for a name, gurl bye.

 

Also, be sure to make it clear whether everyone has to log into every character to save that name or whether logging into one character will save all their character names.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Grimoir   
5 hours ago, Showta said:

First, send them all emails. Give them a month or two to log in.

Let everyone else know as well, scream from the rooftops that in a month or two name releases are coming

This gives people time to either check their emails and go, "Oh I better log in to keep those" or to tell their friends "Hey, you better log in to keep that name!"
Either way it's a bit of a win because this gets a bunch of older players to download the game and log in again.

If they cant be bothered to log in then they don't care enough and thus lose their name

They would have to offer every single person a refund whos name they would take away that got a founder pack which they will not do. Reserved names were one of the conditions and founder perks, the same as the exclusive costumes and titles people received and there is no other way to get them. People need to stop using someones inactivity to take something away from them that they rightfully acquired, just because they were not able to obtain the name. you snooze you lose, simple.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Astarae   
14 hours ago, Grimoir said:

They would have to offer every single person a refund whos name they would take away that got a founder pack which they will not do.

Why?  They got their pack and used it.  They got the outfit and the title - no one is suggesting they give up their 'Founders' accomplishment.  How much do you want after 3 years of not being around?

14 hours ago, Grimoir said:

 

Reserved names were one of the conditions and founder perks, the same as the exclusive costumes and titles people received and there is no other way to get them.

And they got them.  They got reserved names for 3 years and the costume for as long as they played.  But guess what.  If they don't play anymore, they don't have the costume.  It's gone.  You drop out, you are gone.  End of story.  You can't expect them to reserve your character forever.  Hell, I'd be afraid of going away from my character for longer than a year, let alone 3 or 5 or whatever.

14 hours ago, Grimoir said:

People need to stop using someones inactivity to take something away from them that they rightfully acquired, just because they were not able to obtain the name. you snooze you lose, simple.

Sorry, but being dead you have no right to property.  You can't take it with you.  Just like you can't take the costume out of the game, you can't take the name out of the game forever.  How long are accounts kept around if unused?  Are you going to show me any place on the web that gives out a non-expiring account for a 1 time payment?  In some places, promising a life-time benefit is illegal and considered akin to fraud because most internet companies (like companies offering fitness memberships) aren't around longer than 3 years.

 

You think a 1 time payment to the government for your house or car will enable you to own that house or car forever?  Nope -- definitely not the house, and probably not the car unless you can keep it off public property -- but that would require you have the right to put it somewhere on private property.  If it is your property, you either pay your property tax, or it is taken from you.  If it is someone else's private property -- and they are paying your tax for you? I wouldn't expect it for eternity -- they might want or have to move or sell.  Either way there is no place you can keep a private vehicle without  paying for private space.  But there isn't any place I know where you can make a 1 time payment for your property or car or any other real/tangible property.  If it isn't real or tangible property, but is a virtual property, like some asset in a game, you have less rights than those having real property -- and they have to pay, usually yearly, to maintain the right to that property.

 

Welcome to the real world (it sucks but its the only one we got).

 

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Grimoir   
20 minutes ago, Astarae said:

Why?  They got their pack and used it.  They got the outfit and the title - no one is suggesting they give up their 'Founders' accomplishment.  How much do you want after 3 years of not being around?

Yes you are, by saying tehy should release founder pack names you are taking away their acomplishment. Because Name was part of the founde rpack, so its a whole package.

 

21 minutes ago, Astarae said:

And they got them.  They got reserved names for 3 years and the costume for as long as they played.  But guess what.  If they don't play anymore, they don't have the costume.  It's gone.  You drop out, you are gone.  End of story.  You can't expect them to reserve your character forever.  Hell, I'd be afraid of going away from my character for longer than a year, let alone 3 or 5 or whatever.

Whether they play or not is none of your business....the name was part of the founder pack which was offered as purchase. its the same as if you would buy a game on a DVD and then someone wants you to give it away because they want it even though you paid for it, you stayed up in line waiting for it. Yes you can, if you wanted a name, you should have bought a founder4 pack and be fast to login to get it. If you didnt want to or were too late, tough luck. Regardless if they play or not, its a purchased item, and by purchasing it they have the rights to it and no one can take that away.

 

24 minutes ago, Astarae said:

Why?  They got their pack and used it.  They got the outfit and the title - no one is suggesting they give up their 'Founders' accomplishment.  How much do you want after 3 years of not being around?

And they got them.  They got reserved names for 3 years and the costume for as long as they played.  But guess what.  If they don't play anymore, they don't have the costume.  It's gone.  You drop out, you are gone.  End of story.  You can't expect them to reserve your character forever.  Hell, I'd be afraid of going away from my character for longer than a year, let alone 3 or 5 or whatever.

Sorry, but being dead you have no right to property.  You can't take it with you.  Just like you can't take the costume out of the game, you can't take the name out of the game forever.  How long are accounts kept around if unused?  Are you going to show me any place on the web that gives out a non-expiring account for a 1 time payment?  In some places, promising a life-time benefit is illegal and considered akin to fraud because most internet companies (like companies offering fitness memberships) aren't around longer than 3 years.

 

You think a 1 time payment to the government for your house or car will enable you to own that house or car forever?  Nope -- definitely not the house, and probably not the car unless you can keep it off public property -- but that would require you have the right to put it somewhere on private property.  If it is your property, you either pay your property tax, or it is taken from you.  If it is someone else's private property -- and they are paying your tax for you? I wouldn't expect it for eternity -- they might want or have to move or sell.  Either way there is no place you can keep a private vehicle without  paying for private space.  But there isn't any place I know where you can make a 1 time payment for your property or car or any other real/tangible property.  If it isn't real or tangible property, but is a virtual property, like some asset in a game, you have less rights than those having real property -- and they have to pay, usually yearly, to maintain the right to that property.

 

Welcome to the real world (it sucks but its the only one we got).

 

 

All this doesnt matter. You conducted a purchase for money, you purchased an offer that NC soft offered which lasts until lthe game is shut down. They have to keep all accounts even if they arent used or played, they cannot just remove account, they can block it for inactivity which most gaming companies do, but they are not allowed to remove it, especially if they offered a paid service with a name and items.

And specifically in regards to your comparison to real life: Its a game account, they arent dead, they just choose not to play it at the moment. you do not know if they decide to come back today, tomorrow in 3 months....you do not know that.

you literally have no right to talk about someones property which you didnt pay for and which does not belong to you.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Astarae   
1 hour ago, Grimoir said:

Yes you are, by saying tehy should release founder pack names you are taking away their acomplishment. Because Name was part of the founde rpack, so its a whole package.

Anything they can walk away with is still theirs.  Anything they didn't take with them is rented space.

Quote

 

Whether they play or not is none of your business....the name was part of the founder pack which was offered as purchase. its the same as if you would buy a game on a DVD and then someone wants you to give it away because they want it even though you paid for it, you stayed up in line waiting for it.

Not at all the same.  The DVD is a physical object.  Ift is not virtual.  If you own the DVD, it is yours.  If you have a name in some game, it is allowed to you by virtue of your playing the game and by virtue of the company allowing you to use that property.  So far, courts have ruled against such property holding any 'real rights'.  The company can do as it wishes.  

Quote

Yes you can, if you wanted a name, you should have bought a founder4 pack and be fast to login to get it. If you didnt want to or were too late, tough luck. Regardless if they play or not, its a purchased item, and by purchasing it they have the rights to it and no one can take that away.

Anything they can walk away with is theirs to keep.  Anything on line is not exclusively theirs.  Courts have ruled that such things are not your private property like items that are 'real' and tangible. If such a person wants to try to sue NCSoft they can try, but courts have already ruled that the value of such items is $0.0.  Since there is no value, there can be no compensation.  You are welcome to hire a lawyer at your expense to argue against established law, but you will lose if you don't have more that $10 million to spend in legal fees.  The average citizen doesn't begin to get access to the US court system for less than $10 million.  Established multi-millionaires know this.  That you don't know that you don't have any rights is the smallest part of why you wouldn't be able to begin to argue your point with any legal backing or chance -- assuming your don't have a net worth far greater than the $10 million it would require to start such a suit.

Quote

 

All this doesnt matter. You conducted a purchase for money, you purchased an offer that NC soft offered which lasts until lthe game is shut down.

And you can cite any case law which confirms this?  Do you even have a written contract certified by a Notary Public or filed in what court?  Where is the evidence of such a claim?  Were you promised this by a legal representative of the company?  Is there a signed contract?  You are going to need such things if you are going to even start to argue your "rights".  

Quote

They have to keep all accounts even if they arent used or played, they cannot just remove account, they can block it for inactivity which most gaming companies do, but they are not allowed to remove it, especially if they offered a paid service with a name and items.

Did you read the fine print about you owning nothing?  Go back and reread your user agreement:

LICENSE GRANT – ANY SERVICE, CONTENT OR GAME SUPPLIED BY NCSOFT IS LICENSED, NOT SOLD, BY NCSOFT. 

 

You don't own a name, it is, at best, licensed to you.  But: "NCSOFT MAY MODIFY, REMOVE, OR ADD CONTENT IN ITS REASONABLE DISCRETION."  Ncsoft can remove founder's names in its reasonable discretion.  You agree to these terms every time you play the game.

 

It states with regards to ANY name:

 

USE OF ANY ACCOUNT DISPLAY NAME OR CHARACTER ID...  MAY BE MODIFIED FOR ANY REASON, AT ANY TIME, AND IN ANY WAY BY NCSOFT ...AND [SUCH] ARE UNDER LICENSE, NOT SOLD, BY NCSOFT.   ... YOU ACKNOWLEDGE THAT NCSOFT HAS NO ONGOING AND/OR FUTURE DUTY TO YOU REGARDING ANY LICENSE RELATED TO A MODIFIED OR DELETED ACCOUNT DISPLAY NAME, TEAM NAME, OR CHARACTER ID.

 

YOU FURTHER ACKNOWLEDGE THAT NCSOFT MAY, IN ITS REASONABLE DISCRETION, CHOOSE TO MODIFY OR TO DELETE... ANY ACCOUNT DISPLAY NAME, TEAM NAME, OR CHARACTER ID IF YOU ARE NOT IN COMPLIANCE WITH THE PROVISIONS IN SECTION 4 BELOW  ...AND ... THAT NCSOFT HAS NO ONGOING AND/OR FUTURE DUTY TO YOU REGARDING ANY LICENSE RELATED TO A MODIFIED OR DELETED ACCOUNT DISPLAY NAME, TEAM NAME, OR CHARACTER ID.

 

Note section 4 talks about payments to NCSoft and how NCsoft may require:  "PERIODIC PAYMENTS RELATED TO ACCOUNTS, SERVICE AND CONTENT – NCSOFT MAY, IN ITS REASONABLE DISCRETION, REQUIRE YOU TO PAY TO ESTABLISH OR MAINTAIN ANY ACCOUNT."

 

From the above, anyone founder account not that hasn't met any payment requirements, that could include logging in once/year or whatever they decide, can be deleted and that NCSoft has no duty or responsibility regarding such ID's.  

 

You might want to get a lawyer if you feel you want to violate your agreement with NCSoft.  It doesn't appear founders have any leg to stand on in regards to their "rights".  I'm sure NCSoft would not want to arbitrarily do things to create ill will in the community, but it seems the user agreement is pretty clear that they have the right to do as they wish and that names of characters or founder's ID's are not the property of users, but NCSoft.

 

 

Quote

And specifically in regards to your comparison to real life: Its a game account, they arent dead, they just choose not to play it at the moment. you do not know if they decide to come back today, tomorrow in 3 months....you do not know that.

Doesn't matter.  They don't own the names according to the USER Agreement.

Quote

you literally have no right to talk about someones property which you didnt pay for and which does not belong to you.

I have every right to talk about whatever I wish subject to NCSoft's rules and agreements.  I don't think I am in violation of  their rules by pointing out their user agreement to you.  I'm not a representative of them, I'm simply pointing out that you really don't know what you are writing about -- even to the requirements of the User Agreement.

 

I am not a lawyer, and am purely a lay-person w/regards to such law, but have been on the internet since before it was commercialized.  My father was a corporate property lawyer, and I did score in the 94th percentile of applicants taking the LSAT (Legal Scholastic Aptitude Test) but such are not qualifications to legally speak for anyone other than myself.  About someone or a topic, however is fair game for me to share an opinion on.

 

 

 

 

Edited by Astarae
spelling, wording

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Grimoir   
5 hours ago, Astarae said:

Anything they can walk away with is theirs to keep.  Anything on line is not exclusively theirs

it is if you paid for it. Virtual goods and services have the same rights as physical ones.

 

5 hours ago, Astarae said:

REQUIRE YOU TO PAY TO ESTABLISH OR MAINTAIN ANY ACCOUNT.

Here you go. Founders paid to establish an account with a specific name which make it part of virtual goods. Anyway seems you do not understand completely what you all quoted there from ncsoft. I would suggest reading it ALL and then making quotes.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

This conversation comes up all the time.

 

Don’t think ncsoft cares about the old cob webs in their house. Too busy trying to put out the dev team’s kitchen fires with gasoline.

 

 

 

 

 

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Estellia   

I actually think Inactive accounts that has not been around for over a year and or banned accounts should not have the name they were given, or taken anymore. That way, would free up names for active people that are actually playing. It's not a bad idea but you can have a unique name either way. You can have spaces in the name and Make a first and last name, so you're not really limited to a year old name, just make a new one and play. If you still want that name, just alter it but I highly doubt NCsoft will make old names available again.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Astarae   
16 hours ago, Grimoir said:

it is if you paid for it. Virtual goods and services have the same rights as physical ones.

I'm not going to waste time detailing every point of your misunderstanding, but both NCSoft and US law said this isn't the case, however, regardless of that -- physical property doesn't have 'rights'.  People do, but they don't have a right to physical property.  The government can and has confiscated physical property at its convenience.  Some people think you have some right to your property.  You don't.  Law enforcement officials may confiscate (seize) property without filing a court case or proving anything in a court of law.   Under current US law, property does NOT have the same constitutional rights afforded to people.  It can be seized with a suspicion of any wrong doing even if the owner knows nothing about it. 

16 hours ago, Grimoir said:

Here you go. Founders paid to establish an account with a specific name which make it part of virtual goods. Anyway seems you do not understand completely what you all quoted there from ncsoft. I would suggest reading it ALL and then making quotes.

Players of the game are required to have read and understood all of the USER Agreement.  "Suggesting" that I read, in its entirety indicates that you didn't already know that such was already required by the USER Agreement, which only points to you not  having read it.

 

Suggesting I read it when you haven't read  or have not understood it seems a bit hypocritical at best and a likely violation of the user agreement.  But you knew that, right?

 

I'm turning off notifications for this thread since you indicate you can't understand what I cited, its pointless to go on.

Cheers.

 

& remember:  its not me you need to convince, I was just giving my opinion based on my own, limited knowledge of case law and legal precedent.  I can't help it... I was raise in an environment that encouraged lively discussion of issues.  Sometimes I can argue both sides of an issue, which often has me arguing with myself... *mumble mumble* :HongWhat:⁻(...cricket, are you feeling ok?)

 

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Junamaki   

It would be nice if NC could release an official statement on this because all before they were stating that founder pack reserved names wouldn’t be available unless they’re now changing up their rules

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!


Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.


Sign In Now