schupunk

cold storage, my orb my loot, does this mean winter mane's loot + kaari's loot? or just kaari's loot?

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MSN1   
Posted (edited)

I don't think MOML is dying, I still see players advertising them, and I have still been getting into those groups. But whatever people's opinion on MOML is, is fine, that's their opinion. However, I find issue with people that willingly join a group with specified terms (no matter what it is, including MOML) and then go against what the leader said anyway, which I find is unjust nor courteous, and does not help the party. If you want to talk about courtesy, how is it polite and respectful to join a party under specified terms, then deceive everyone by violating those terms? Those kind of people should make their own LFP party if they didn't want to agree to that leader's terms, rather than drench the whole party with their toxicity. It creates unnecessary drama and wastes time for everyone else in the group while they bicker with their excuses and in my experience, risk making the orb-user leave. This is why I don't use my orbs in a group, because I know how unfortunately toxic the community can be and I don't trust any random player.

 

On the subject of loot, frozen feathers drop from dynamic quests already, which is about the only place I collect them from, and I find it just fine. No need to rush on getting those Ascension/Radiance stones. I honestly don't understand how some people choose to justify their toxicity just because they want to rush to get the next new shiny thing - if they willingly join a MOML party, want to act rude, make excuses that they absolutely need xxx (as if no one else in the server does), don't want to use their own orb, and violate the terms set by a party leader through bidding, then that to me looks much more selfish and greedy than a MOML leader.  Also, I feel the boss loots in CS and HM are not *that* great anyway, hence why I don't care about them and will happily pass if a MOML leader wants them. A few more frozen feathers and maybe a heptagonal gem ticket if you're lucky. Oh wow. That's a real game changer there (sarcasm). It also still doesn't change the fact that orbs are a bit more difficult to obtain quickly since the patch. So for me, if someone is willing to give up their orb, I find it reasonable to give them the loot if they want it. Again, I am a casual player who doesn't care about the loot, all I care about is the event currency so I only want the quests done, and I believe these ridiculous issues could be solved by removing orbs altogether. 

However, people should not act like every character/alt has a free orb on hand, because that is not true. For those who think the MOML leaders should go solo dungeons to "earn" all the loot themselves, whether it is CS or HM, that argument can be turned the other way as well. The possibility that the bidder is actually the one being carried, rather than the MOML leader, should not be ignored. Take for instance, a case where a MOML party is formed and everyone who joined it seemingly agrees to the specified terms. Then someone bids on the HM boss/both bosses in CS, violating the terms because they did not use their orb. Well, see, the bidder wanted *all* the loot too, but did they really earn it all on their *own*? No, they were carried, and took advantage of someone else's difficult-to-obtain orb just so they wouldn't have to use theirs.  If that bidder wanted all the loot to themselves, then they should go solo the dungeons and *use their own orbs* rather than be carried by a full party to use someone else's orb. If they aren't geared enough to solo it or don't have orbs, and choose to join a MOML party, then they should follow said terms. How is it fair that the orb-user gets *none* of the loot just because a bidder wants all of it? This is why anyone who can solo HM/CS just solo it, to avoid wasting their orbs on toxic players.

Edited by MSN1

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1 orb fragment is near 10g. That's 60g for an orb. I'd say that's a big chunk of cash for just b2 loot.

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il y a une heure, MassiveEgo a dit :

1 orb fragment is near 10g. That's 60g for an orb. I'd say that's a big chunk of cash for just b2 loot.

NA I guess ? Because it's like 3g on EU.

 

Still, MOML is stupid and should disappear, it's not like 95% of the orb users pays for their orb. If you do pay, then I suggest to stop wasting money. I know because of the event it makes things harder but once the event is over, just clear Winter Mane in CS then bring a shard for Jinsoyun. (still risk of getting scammed tho, unfortunately)

+ the loot is not worth it anyway

+ bid = more money circulating

+ hepta gem taken by a orb user that has gilded gems is retarded

+ orb should be deleted anyway xd

 

Bad design in every way.

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Rychael   

Until this event (plus them switching to new orbs to remove all current stock) MOML in Cold Storage ALWAYS meant loot for Kaari ONLY!!

 

This event made people get greedy and lay claim to winter's loot as well. It was never this way before, despite how often in this thread people claim otherwise. 

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Mekun   

People post moml for CS run then when you bid on the first boss they say my orb my loot, I just say thats not how that works and its never been that way for as long as ive played(over two years). Had one guy not use his orb because i bid on a feather, he left group so i just used one orb i had and the party moved on. If people post moml both bosses i dont join simple as that for me.

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ctan5418   

It's nice to see people here more than agreeing that moml = kaari loot only, because orb is used on the second boss.

 

Out of all my times going into cold storage prior to the event, moml did not equate "my loot" from two bosses, especially when the first boss is literally free to fight.

 

I don't care if they come with pitch forks yelling "wth I said moml its mine!". Unless I see an orb used, you're not entitled to a boss's reward that did not exhaust your inventory yet.

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Heh... Just did HM with my orb and 2 party members actually bid on ALL items... telling them MOML and they said nope, it's theirs...

I guess there are always childish, greedy players out there who has no respect for anything except themselves and what they want...

 

REMOVE the unnecessary orb requirement!!!

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Astarae   
25 minutes ago, PewPewPew said:

Heh... Just did HM with my orb and 2 party members actually bid on ALL items... telling them MOML and they said nope, it's theirs...

I guess there are always childish, greedy players out there who has no respect for anything except themselves and what they want...

You mean like those who need others to help them get through those dungeons but aren't willing to split the loot?  People who expect others to come along and get nothing are the selfish ones.  The 'clear' isn't worth giving up the loot.  Maybe you can convince

the NCboys to give out 10 million experience per daily run off those dungeons and people will feel it is worth doing with no loot.  But what can people expect if they go with a moml?  A battle to escort you through to "your" treasure?   What are you paying them?

25 minutes ago, PewPewPew said:

REMOVE the unnecessary orb requirement!!!

I can't really disagree with that.

 

So why didn't you go by yourself?

 

You needed them.  You can't do it yourself.  What do you expect?  you can't force people to give you a free ride, but that's what MOML is.  The orb is useless without sufficient DPS to kill the bosses.  You can't do the dungeon without the ORB, but you can't do it with out DPS either.  They are BOTH necessary.  When are people gonna get it through their head that building up a character to where it has the DPS that can help you get through that dungeon isn't "free" -- you claim the orb isn't free -- fine, but neither are characters that can solo that dungeon or even characters that can *help* you with that dungeon.

 

If you want to do that dungeon and want to be able to bid on those items -- bring an orb, but don't expect it gives you license to all the loot HM or even  1 boss in CS.  It's that simple  if you can't solo those dungeons, you need to pay an orb to get an escort.  And pay in the sense  that if you have people who accompany you, they can bid on the loot -- like normal, and you'll pay for them to get there. 

 

That's the bottom line.  If you don't have the DPS, you should pay for the DPS.  It doesn't come for free.  Understand that without enough DPS to get through those bosses, the orb is worthless.  It doesn't matter what people think it is worth -- its useless without the means to get through the dungeon.

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8 minutes ago, Astarae said:

You mean like those who need others to help them get through those dungeons but aren't willing to split the loot?  People who expect others to come along and get nothing are the selfish ones.  The 'clear' isn't worth giving up the loot.  Maybe you can convince

the NCboys to give out 10 million experience per daily run off those dungeons and people will feel it is worth doing with no loot.  But what can people expect if they go with a moml?  A battle to escort you through to "your" treasure?   What are you paying them?

I can't really disagree with that.

 

So why didn't you go by yourself?

 

You needed them.  You can't do it yourself.  What do you expect?  you can't force people to give you a free ride, but that's what MOML is.  The orb is useless without sufficient DPS to kill the bosses.  You can't do the dungeon without the ORB, but you can't do it with out DPS either.  They are BOTH necessary.  When are people gonna get it through their head that building up a character to where it has the DPS that can help you get through that dungeon isn't "free" -- you claim the orb isn't free -- fine, but neither are characters that can solo that dungeon or even characters that can *help* you with that dungeon.

 

If you want to do that dungeon and want to be able to bid on those items -- bring an orb, but don't expect it gives you license to all the loot HM or even  1 boss in CS.  It's that simple  if you can't solo those dungeons, you need to pay an orb to get an escort.  And pay in the sense  that if you have people who accompany you, they can bid on the loot -- like normal, and you'll pay for them to get there. 

 

That's the bottom line.  If you don't have the DPS, you should pay for the DPS.  It doesn't come for free.  Understand that without enough DPS to get through those bosses, the orb is worthless.  It doesn't matter what people think it is worth -- its useless without the means to get through the dungeon.

It's not a free ride. You were not there so you have no idea what is happening. I did the most damage and the 2 players who bid for everything was not doing much due to poor gear and low AP and one actually afk for half the time claiming lag. I carried them. Then they bid for items while laughing in my face. 

 

Besides, i didn't use the orb at the beginning, not until every other player said they don't have orb. 

 

I don't understand why people say it is a free ride. They won't even be able to do the quest without an orb. And the reward for them in helping is the reward from completing the quest itself, the gold, the mats and the daily challenge done.

 

And "why don't you do it by yourself?" is just plain silly. Right, I play and MMO to "do everything by myself".  

 

Anyway, my gripe is with the handful of players who are not team players. At the end of the day, it is just an orb, it is just some digital loot, and it is just a game. :)

 

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MSN1   

See, this is what I was talking about. Sometimes the bidders are the ones being carried, not the orb-user. Why should one bidder get all the loot? It's not like they were the only person carrying the whole team, they don't deserve it more than the other members. It was a group effort, *everyone* had to contribute DPS, not just the bidder. However, you can't evenly split a frozen feather or gem ticket 6 ways for each party member, therefore it makes sense to just give the orb-user the loot. Otherwise, the bidder and everyone else wouldn't have even been able to complete the quest because you can't spawn the boss without an orb. At least a MOML leader contributes an orb to help the party, which is also not an easy thing to get nowadays. 

 

People shouldn't act like only a MOML leader needs help in DPS - if a bidder didn't need help in DPS, they most likely wouldn't be in a party since they could solo the dungeon themselves. It doesn't sound fair that a bidder wants all the loot, but gets carried in a full party and didn't use their own orb. Anyone that says a MOML leader should go solo HM/CS to 'earn' all the loot themselves should remember that the same can be said about the bidder. That bidder who wants all the loot can also go solo it so they would actually 'earn it themselves' too, and use their *own* orb instead of bumming off someone else's orb, and with their *own* DPS rather than needing a full party helping them. 

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Astarae   

No one says bidder should get all the loot -- that's why you bid.  And not it does not makes sense to give the lowest person holding the orb the loot.  You can't clear a boss without DPS.  It takes alot more money to raise up a character with the DPS to help clear those bosses than it does to get an orb.  The day an orb costs as much to develop a character of over a year, you won't see anyone playing.

 

The orb used to be a 5cent item.  Now, maybe it's at most a dollar , but  high lvl characters easily go for for multiple thousands.  You try to compare a 5k or 10k character to a 1 dollar orb, that's a laugh.

 

In the group I just lead through CS -- I did double the damage of anyone else on 1st boss and triple on 2nd.  So I know who's being carried -- in this case an orb holder who doesn't require the party to give up loot -- anymore than on BT -- where usually anyone who demanded all the loot for having the 'key', would be left in the dust.  If you provide a key or an orb -- don't think you can buy a party for that.  I'm always using rez charms on the group -- do I get paid for that?  Don't usually even get thanked.  It's part of what I contribute to a group, but it doesn't mean I get all the loot -- and when I told people my parties were normal loot rules, that also didn't mean I wouldn't bid against them, but it does mean I'm not going to go off crying if they bid.  Except in 1-2 cases, if someone bid against me, I let them have it.  But that's how bidding works.  People bid to distribute the loot -- not give it to one person.

 

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Astarae   
8 hours ago, PewPewPew said:

It's not a free ride. You were not there so you have no idea what is happening. I did the most damage and the 2 players who bid for everything was not doing much due to poor gear and low AP and one actually afk for half the time claiming lag. I carried them. Then they bid for items while laughing in my face. 

And "why don't you do it by yourself?" is just plain silly. Right, I play and MMO to "do everything by myself".  

No one is suggestion you do everything by yourself.  But on this 1 dungeon, if you don't want the hassle of people bidding against you, then do it yourself.  I don't like doing this dungeon cuz I don't like people wondering if I'm going to try to scam them in some way.

More than one on a CS run wanted to see proof that I had an ORB!  That sucks. 

But when I do those dungeons -- and sometimes I do the most damage and other times not.  Doesn't matter -- everyone gets to

bid.

 

If You REALLY wanna take all the loot -- and I really don't under stand why all the moml's create a situation where they can easily be betrayed -- like they would rather be able to complain about it than make something work -- if they are the party lead -- change the party looting rules to master looter and take all the loot yourself.  No one would be able to bid.  That will resolve things REAL fast -- since

if you change looting rules, those who were going to bid will likely leave.

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MSN1   

In parties I've been in, if anyone does bid against an orb-user, it's usually only one person, and they always want *all* the 'good' loot (multiple frozen feathers and gem ticket too). Everyone else in the party has enough gratitude and respect for the orb-user to not bid.

 

You keep bringing up needing high DPS to clear the bosses, but at the same time, based on your argument, you're saying a carried bidder (even if they were the lowest DPS) deserves the loot more than the orb-user? Because the quest *still* can't be completed without spawning the boss, which means you can't even clear the boss if you don't have an orb. If the orb-user doesn't care for the loot and lets other party members have it, bless them. But if they want the loot, it seems wrong to fight them for it. Honestly, I have never seen a "Your Orb, My Loot" party in F8, and I doubt it would go as well. If that actually worked and was popular, I'm sure I would have seen it ages ago and it would be the norm today.

 

Most people are not whales in B&S, and the majority of players showing up in HM/CS parties are not those '5 -10 thousand dollar' characters that are 'helping with DPS.' Whales would typically just solo those dungeons anyway because they can, and to avoid toxic random players who might want to bum off their orb and fight them for loot. I find it hard to believe that most players running around have spent 5-10 thousand dollars, because it certainly doesn't look that way in the parties I've seen. Yet they can *still* clear HM/CS bosses just fine. So no, you don't have to spend thousands just to clear those dungeons.

 

Ok, this last part just seems contradictory - first in an earlier post, you said orb-users should pay for escorts to accompany them by using their orb. Now you say they can't buy a party with an orb. Seems confusing, which is it?

 

12 hours ago, Astarae said:

If you want to do that dungeon and want to be able to bid on those items -- bring an orb, but don't expect it gives you license to all the loot HM or even  1 boss in CS.  It's that simple  if you can't solo those dungeons, you need to pay an orb to get an escort.  And pay in the sense  that if you have people who accompany you, they can bid on the loot -- like normal, and you'll pay for them to get there. 

That's the bottom line.  If you don't have the DPS, you should pay for the DPS.  

 

3 hours ago, Astarae said:

 If you provide a key or an orb -- don't think you can buy a party for that. 

 

 

 

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Astarae   
Posted (edited)
2 minutes ago, MSN1 said:

 

Ok, this last part just seems contradictory - first in an earlier post, you said orb-users should pay for escorts to accompany them by using their orb. Now you say they can't buy a party with an orb. Seems confusing, which is it?

Meaning that the orb or key isnt' enough to pay for the escort AND take the loot.  Might get you an escort, but to expect they won't want a cut of the loot is too much.

 

Edited by Astarae

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MSN1   

Oh, ok, I see. Thanks for the clarification.

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Astarae   
3 minutes ago, MSN1 said:

In parties I've been in, if anyone does bid against an orb-user, it's usually only one person, and they always want *all* the 'good' loot (multiple frozen feathers and gem ticket too). Everyone else in the party has enough gratitude and respect for the orb-user to not bid.

Wanting all is a bit selfish for anyone.  Like I said...when I go, there are some things I want and will first and more on if needed, but some things, even if I bid, if someone else bids, I let them have it as a way to split things more fairly -- that way I don't feel so walked on as I would if I let them have anything they counter bid, but also don't feel I was pushy about taking all the good items

 

3 minutes ago, MSN1 said:

 

You keep bringing up needing high DPS to clear the bosses, but at the same time, based on your argument, you're saying a carried bidder (even if they were the lowest DPS) deserves the loot more than the orb-user?

See above...I don't take all but don't roll over either.  

3 minutes ago, MSN1 said:

Because the quest *still* can't be completed without spawning the boss, which means you can't even clear the boss if you don't have an orb.

In CS, you clear quest with first boss and don't need orb for that.  So you get the clear w/o an orb.  That's why its a pure sign of toxic for people to demand loot of both bosses.

 

3 minutes ago, MSN1 said:

Most people are not whales in B&S, and the majority of players showing up in HM/CS parties are not those '5 -10 thousand dollar' characters that are 'helping with DPS.' Whales would typically just solo those dungeons anyway because they can, and to avoid toxic random players who might want to bum off their orb and fight them for loot. I find it hard to believe that most players running around have spent 5-10 thousand dollars, because it certainly doesn't look that way in the parties I've seen. Yet they can *still* clear HM/CS bosses just fine. So no, you don't have to spend thousands just to clear those dungeons.

Depends on how many years you have invested.  An acquaintance says he is free to play --  but he's devoted years to the game as well -- ever spare waking non-working moment.  A for who is showing up in HM/CS parties -- you don't know -- I know one person who sold off their account for a good sum -- but they were there in HM/CS along w/anyone else.

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rykgirl   
Posted (edited)

Easy solution.. Dont join any parties that go MOML.. Just go LFP.. Or use own orb.. 

 

I appreciate the people who use their orbs so i can get my quest rewards from kaari so i dont bid on loots.. Hoping this encourages more ppl to use their orbs for others.. 

 

Again, if u want the loots, LFP or use your own.. If u join MOML, appreciate them a little.. Why complain over other people's orbs? Give people like me a chance to join these MOML parties, dont hog if u are gonna fight over the loots.. Thanks

Edited by rykgirl

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MSN1   

@Astarae:

Well, like I said, if you're one of those orb-users that lets people bid on loot, that is kind of you, bless you. For myself, I would just never bid against an orb-user if they want an item. 

 

Yes, in CS, you complete the main quest and the 1st dynamic quest by defeating Mane without an orb. But there is a 2nd dynamic quest for Kaari, so to complete the 2nd dynamic quest for more rewards like frozen feathers (or event currency like during the last event), you need an orb to spawn Kaari. Oh, I didn't realize we were talking about demanding loot from both bosses in CS. In your recent posts, it sounded like you had issue with the idea of the regular MOML for HM and CS Kaari boss, so that was the only topic I was addressing.

 

PewPewPew was originally talking about their experience in HM, so in that post I was actually referring to HM (but it can go for CS Kaari too) requiring an orb to spawn the boss and complete the quest/dynamic quest. Which is why it looks wrong to me for people to bid after HM or CS Kaari boss, since the orb also helped them get their dynamic quests completed and already gave them free frozen feathers so they shouldn't have to bid on them in the loot drop.

 

What I meant was, based on the gear that I saw in parties, a majority of the players did not look like whales. If those players did actually have a whale character, but just happened to be using a weaker alt character at the time they were in my party, it still proves that it isn't necessary to spend a lot of money to clear those bosses. Most of the party members were not highly geared, yet we were still able to defeat the bosses fine. Yes, players can also invest time into playing this game instead of spending actual money. I only brought up whales because you mentioned well-geared characters costing thousands, comparing them to the cost of an orb. Although a free-to-play player who is well-geared by free methods (through farming or selling gold for HM coin, etc.) will probably not feel the need to compare themselves to an orb. They understand the game is just a game and there is no rush to be the best/get the best items quickly, which is why they don't mind taking their time rather than progress faster by paying with their credit card. In either case, well-geared p2p and f2p characters are not common, yet parties are still capable of clearing dungeons.

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Like I said previously. The Moml is for kaari only. The first boss is free for all. I join moml groups when it is not advertised as both bosses. I usually ignore the two bosses momls. The way it has been for 2 years is Moml for the boss that you summon. I care not if the shards cost gold. You wont get both bosses and i care not if you leave.  

 

Personally I dont really need the gem loot there neither on my main or alts and will always pass on those anyways, but its the  feather that people NEED to upgrade their stones (Which is another horrible system that doesn't make sense.)

 

 Sometimes I am short 1 feather for that one Ascension stone and i bid on the feather dropped from mane to buy the stone.  And if someone in party needs second boss i help them out to get their loot from that.  But the way it has ALWAYS been is first boss = free for all. second boss = the moml holder.

 

And that is final, and I am sure I am not alone.  People are bidding on momls because there is an internal war going on ingame when it comes to both bosses.  Its not about toxicity. Its about what is and has always been the rule. 

 

This whole issue could be fixed if the orb requirement was removed.   It was bad then and it is still bad now.  Plus the queues would be much much faster if its removed. 

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Astarae   
15 hours ago, MSN1 said:

@Astarae:

Well, like I said, if you're one of those orb-users that lets people bid on loot, that is kind of you, bless you. For myself, I would just never bid against an orb-user if they want an item. 

Yes, in CS, you complete the main quest and the 1st dynamic quest by defeating Mane without an orb. But there is a 2nd dynamic quest for Kaari, so to complete the 2nd dynamic quest for more rewards like frozen feathers (or event currency like during the last event), you need an orb to spawn Kaari. Oh, I didn't realize we were talking about demanding loot from both bosses in CS. In your recent posts, it sounded like you had issue with the idea of the regular MOML for HM and CS Kaari boss, so that was the only topic I was addressing.

I wasn't specifically talking about demanding loot from both, but this thread has brought up the topic -- I was only thinking that

for clearing CS as a DC quest, no orb is needed -- only for HM.  I don't like the str8-jacket I feel I must wear around these dungeons and this topic. 

 

The first time I ever went to one of these dungeons, I didn't know about any non-game "rules" I was supposed to follow --

no one can -- they aren't posted.  Even if the person (and I don't recall that they did) said moml on the group invite, I wouldn't

have a clue what that meant anymore than what most people would know if wrote tgitw.  I already had the experience of being called various derogatory names if I asked a question letting them know I was a newbie, so I'm not going to ask for any explanations.  Heck, I get berated for doing Mechs on some dungeons because, as a gunner w/highest lvl in group, I didn't dwarf everyone else's damage.  Why should someone else care that I didn't do more DPS than them, or threaten to post me to some blacklist group because, I didn't out-DPS someone w/a weap 2 lists below mine?  I wasn't competing.  I thought it was a laid back group (I was leader), but now someone thinks they are going to report me for not doing enough DPS because that means I bought my account?  In what reality?

 

Ntl, (nevertheless), I got ripped a new one for bidding a penny on some generic item.  That was this new person's exposure to this kind, and helpful community that creates arbitrary rules because of some misguided sense of politeness -- that had the effect of causing

more trouble and bad feelings than any other rule in the game.  Any new person hitting that dungeon won't know -- so their first experience with this community on that rule will likely suck.  For an item that cost less than a nickel at the time, creating such an unnatural rule would be called "entrapment" in court.  It would be thrown out.  There was no interview, or explanation.  By default there never would be -- because it *ISN'T* a rule in the game.  The game doesn't enforce such a rule, it  has always been an artificial rule that some low level players, upon acquiring an orb, wanted to try to force upon others, through guilt and social-pressure.

 

It's fraud and a swindle to tell people it is a "rule".  If it was a rule, the game would enforce it, and certainly they can stop setting up other people to fail by changing loot rules at the beginning of the group.   People want loot -- what better way to get loot that to buy a 5-cent item (used to be) and claim there is a rule that everyone must give the orb holder  all the loot because they supplied this item.  People demanding loot from other for a made-up rule are  swindlers -- con-men.  As more people fall for the 'con', the more people will try to con others into doing the same.  They don't want to admit they were conned, so of course they try to convince others that its a rule. 

 

I'd been in DND parties before, and no one ever asked for special favors for being the only thief in the group who could open the lock to access some treasure quest.  No one got all the loot for being the only healer in the group -- even if they had to resurrect people!  I'm constantly using up group-res charms, but I don't demand loot or compensation for reviving a party, without which they would never have made it to "the treasure". 

 

You did what you could -- if you brought along any skills to benefit or enable the party -- it was what you did to benefit the group and never something you would do, expecting "compensation".  If you were sufficiently mercenary, you might charge a group for every little service you do, including being a leader or providing supplies or whatever, but better not expect to make any friends nor for them not to charge you a share of the loot for their contribution.

 

Even after I got to a point where I was usually carrying people -- there are several dungeons I could do if I could maintain a damage stream even half the time.  But if I'm soloing, monsters/boss will only focus on me.  Just having along anyone can help distract a boss enough to let me kill the boss.  Doesn't matter that they only did 5k to my 500k, without them to distract the boss at least part of the time, there's a good chance I wouldn't make it.  CS, before the ascend update, was like that for a few months for me.  With 1 person, no matter how bad they were, I could take out the boss, but by myself -- I'd never be unfrozen long enough to get off a shot.  I don't care if it "looks" like I carried them -- and I would tell them, that without them that without them there was a very good chance I wouldn't be able to clear the boss.  Eventually, even though it became no longer true, I still want people to know that if I wasn't soloing it, then I felt their presence was sufficient benefit for me to treat them as an equal-share member of my party.  

 

When I got back here, to the forums, after my first "berating" for not already knowing the rules -- someone invited me to their clan and wanted to help a new player starting out.  But after I made it clear how I felt on this "artificial rule", they wouldn't speak to me -- and I even said if I was in a group or clan that had a rule to give loot to the orb provider, I'd abide by the group rules because I chose to be in that clan.  But I don't choose to abide by someone's "default rules" that "everyone" is expected to know and is held up as some lame standard of "politeness" or consideration.  If the rule NEVER created a hostile atmosphere like it does more than any other such consideration, then it might be a rule worth having.  But the fact that it generates the hurt feelings and hostility that it does only points to it being an *unnatural* and malicious rule that is used by some to dominate others through guilt and peer pressure and force them to "get in line" with the fake politeness and courtesy surrounding this rule.  It can't be a matter of politeness nor courtesy if it requires forcing people to do something that doesn't come naturally.

15 hours ago, MSN1 said:

PewPewPew was originally talking about their experience in HM, so in that post I was actually referring to HM (but it can go for CS Kaari too) requiring an orb to spawn the boss and complete the quest/dynamic quest. Which is why it looks wrong to me for people to bid after HM or CS Kaari boss, since the orb also helped them get their dynamic quests completed and already gave them free frozen feathers so they shouldn't have to bid on them in the loot drop.

In order for the orb holder to be entitled to 'something', they have to get something for their efforts too.  That cannot be something everyone gets just by being there.  The orb holder gets the same benefits -- free frozen feathers and dynamic quest completion -- everyone gets that just for being there and completing a successful run -- that includes the orb holder.  They get the basic benefit by participating in the creation & execution of a successful party.  Benefits beyond the basic need to be negotiated -- not expected.  The orb holder already has the reward for using their orb -- they get the dynamic quest completion and reward -- something they would not have received if they hadn't provided the orb.

15 hours ago, MSN1 said:

 They understand the game is just a game and there is no rush to be the best/get the best items quickly....

If they've been paying attention, they will feel the pressure to go faster by all the quests being removed in area's 1+2 and the pressure to participate with high-enough level equipment -- because if they will find that more often than not, they will be rejected in F8 for not having R3/R9/A3, etc.  Also, if they want to see ANY higher level equipment, there is a hugh rush, since the game will be shutting down in about another year, maybe two years, at most, given the current shrink rate.   

 

    So yeah -- there is a rush.  

 

Forcing new players through this drama is detestable.   So I will continue to speak out against this malignant, harmful and disruptive practice.  Look at the results in this community that spring out of attempts to create and enforce this artificial rule.

 

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Smoq   
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The orb holder already has the reward for using their orb -- they get the dynamic quest completion and reward -- something they would not have received if they hadn't provided the orb.

Orb is like 15-20 gold (or maybe even more), so yeah, giving drop to someone who used the orb is just pure courtesy. If you don't do that don't be surprised if someone calls you "❤ ❤ ❤ ❤" or something similar.

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Astarae   
Posted (edited)
18 hours ago, Smoq said:

Orb is like 15-20 gold (or maybe even more), so yeah, giving drop to someone who used the orb is just pure courtesy. If you don't do that don't be surprised if someone calls you "❤ ❤ ❤ ❤" or something similar.

Courtesy is something granted, not demanded. It's not courtesy if it is demanded -- its submission and and domination that has nothing to do with courtesy. 20g @ current 2:1 rate would mean 40NC.  At historic rates, it woudl be closer to 30NC or about 37.5-50/100 dollars -- so now its worth between 37.5 and 50 cents.  That still hasn't paid for my coffee.  Of course how many orbs cost their users 15-20g?  Don't people get an orb or two a day for free?

Now think about this -- if the people who get the chest get an orb, do think they will throw it away?  

 

Nope -- now they are using their orb and the situation is reversed.  Now you have twice the opportunities for someone to be screwed or insulting, like one of the people in the CS run I hosted yesterday -- who I heard talking about me when I got out from shopping at the vendor's.  "Now they don't have an orb?", which wasn't the case at all, but how quick they were to complain...

 

 

 

 

 

As I stated in my note, obs used to be cheaper, but now, a 'carry' through some BT dungeons can still be seen for $50.  So for 2 bosses in CS instead of 4 in BT, maybe $25.  I.e. what the user is 'demanding' for their $20 orb, is a $25 carry.  

 

   "It's pure courtesy to offer bidding on the loot after a group helped you do what you could not do yourself" [sic].    It really may be that no one could do it by themselves, but  that really means all contributed.  So all should be able to bid.  

Edited by Astarae

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MSN1   

@Astarae:

 

It is unfortunate what you have experienced, and I am sure almost everyone has had bad experiences with toxic people in B&S. The forums are filled with stories and examples of it. I have my own experiences too, so I can relate. This game could have a better community, but each individual and the game itself (plus the way it is managed), needs to change to promote a more helpful, supportive environment. All I can say is, improvements can be made.

 

For what I am addressing, it is only about the regular MOML on HM Jinsoyun/CS 2nd boss Kaari. I believe I first learned what the term was when the orb-user announced it right before using one so that everyone would know, preventing any confusion later. I don't remember having a bad experience while new to those dungeons, and I am grateful for that. The members in your first party there should have been more kind and explained things better, they were at fault for their bad behavior.

 

However, you are making a big assumption by generalizing most players under the label of being 'conned.' Furthermore, it is a false assumption to say, 'because those players are being conned, they don't want to admit it, so they convince others that MOML is a rule.' I have never been conned out of loot, I willingly share/give it up. Rarely do I ever bid anyway, I usually let everyone else in the party take what they like first. If they really want it because they feel that they need it, and it helps them, great. I am not in a rush to be the very best, and I don't want to waste time/effort in a bidding war. Especially for quick dungeons like HM/CS, I just want to hop in and hop out, then move on to something else.

 

Also, I have seen a number of MOML leaders being one of the better geared members in parties too, so I don't think it's always the low level players that want all the loot. You keep bringing up the low level players in a bad light, at least acknowledge that there are well-geared players who are doing the same thing. In fact, those low level players could even be whales on their alts doing their dailies. If you want to place blame for the MOML rule, there is no way that it should only go to one particular group of players, it isn't fair at all to see things from only one side.

 

Your view that the orb-user (in HM and CS 2nd boss Kaari) should not be guaranteed loot is understandable, but it still doesn't change the fact that the quest (for HM) or dynamic quests can't be completed without an orb, and I've been in parties that disbanded because no one had an orb. Everyone would have to go back to F8 to join a party that did. Otherwise, they can't finish their dailies, get event currency, etc. Orbs are not a common item, not everyone has one on hand every day for every character they own. If they were not as rare, I'm sure there never would have been a MOML rule, which I think would have been nice. I prefer that those dungeons not require orbs, but NCSoft has still not changed the requirements. So when someone in my party offers up their orb, I am grateful that I don't need to jump back to F8 to queue again/choose a longer, more tedious quest to finish my daily. It saves me time, at least that is how I see it. I'm not sure how others reason why they agree to MOML, but I don't believe they think that they are getting conned. If they think anything like me, then they realize that orbs are not easy to come by and they appreciate the person who is willing to give up their orb for the party.

 

Comparing an orb to class skills (resurrection/buff/heal) or charms (resurrection/buff) is unequal. Focus for skills and charms can be acquired/replenished more quickly and easily, even cheaply or for free. It is not the same for orbs. For example, you can't just hit the bosses and immediately get 2 more orbs out of them the same way you can get 2 spheres of focus back to use for a warlock's Restoration Field heal skill. An assassin's Fighting Spirit buff and a summoner's Helping Paw resurrection skill doesn't even cost any focus. You can also get Heroic Friendship Charms and Instant Mass Revival Charms for free from the Daily Challenge Reward Chest - I'm not often in parties where members are constantly dying, so I rarely have to use them and I currently have a good stock of charms. On the contrary, for a full orb, you would need to do daily challenges 6 times to have enough shards, or pay a good amount of gold to buy them all. That is not as fast, easy, or cheap to acquire as focus/charms, which makes it an insufficient comparison. Even with the daily dash now including orbs, you will need RNG luck, which is never dependable. So for myself, if someone has an orb and uses it for the party, I find it kind of them to share, and to be kind back, I will not bid against them on the loot if they want it. Again, I don't really care for the loot, it doesn't seem worth much to me, and I would rather not waste time on a bidding war. However, no one can force you to change your mind if you really want to hold your stance on MOML, I am just sharing my point of view.

 

Lastly, if what you say is true, in that 'the game will be shutting down in a year or two,' then all the more reason there shouldn't be a rush. Why should people keep putting large amounts of time and money into a game that is shutting down? It doesn't make sense to invest so much into something that is temporary and intangible. There wouldn't be anything to show for it once it's all over. Even if someone were able to reach max-gear the day right before B&S closed, then what? And would they really be satisfied in their life over that achievement? Perhaps they could be satisfied, but it would still not last long. At least for me, I'd rather place my investments in something more permanent. Again, it is clear we have differing views, so you can think and do what you want with B&S, I am just sharing my own thoughts.

 

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Astarae   
Posted (edited)
16 hours ago, MSN1 said:

@Astarae:

It is unfortunate what you have experienced, and I am sure almost everyone has had bad experiences with toxic people in B&S. The forums are filled with stories and examples of it. I have my own experiences too, so I can relate. This game could have a better community, but each individual and the game itself (plus the way it is managed), needs to change to promote a more helpful, supportive environment. All I can say is, improvements can be made.

Starting with elimination of non-game enforced rules that, REALLY, are not part of the game.  Then you won't have newbies put on the spot, nor will you have conversations like this one spanning multiple pages in the forum.  All of this discussion is a waste of time.  On a personal level, some people in my last clan decided to band together and rotate using of a stone -- but loot rules were usually given by whoever wanted, but 'need' on your current character coming first, and 'want' (even for alts) coming 2nd.  I'm even seeing 'need' on primary being applied in public raids, with bidding reserved for some 'sealed'/resellable loot-items.

 

Like I said.  If the momles really don't want to share, they always change loot rules on groups they are in charge of.  If they don't do that then they are not serious about keeping the loot -- instead, it's clear they want to setup a sting.  You do get that right?  They can set looting rules at the beginning and those who don't like it can leave.  No prob, right?  And DON'T claim they wouldn't know how.  That's the bull.  If they know enough BnS to try to pull a momle on people which isn't documented anywhere, then they have to know the stuff that *is* documented, and is enforced by the game.   For someone to claim that others "know" moml not to know the rules of the game is a sign of someone wanting to make others wrong vs. getting what they want.

Quote

 

For what I am addressing, it is only about the regular MOML on HM Jinsoyun/CS 2nd boss Kaari. I believe I first learned what the term was when the orb-user announced it right before using one so that everyone would know, preventing any confusion later.

Before using or at group creation?  If they are leader and don't announce on invite, that's "bait and switch".  If the want such rules

enforced, but then indicate normal loot-rules, by NOT changing the default loot distribution on the group,  they are setting up conditions for someone else to grab treasure: 99 times/100 they are expecting strangers with unknown origins and unknown morals to adhere to their own sense of right/wrong.  Despite age limits, isn't it true that the large majority of players are technically 'adults'?

Quote

I don't remember having a bad experience while new to those dungeons, and I am grateful for that. The members in your first party there should have been more kind and explained things better, they were at fault for their bad behavior.

 

However, you are making a big assumption by generalizing most players under the label of being 'conned.' Furthermore, it is a false assumption to say, 'because those players are being conned, they don't want to admit it, so they convince others that MOML is a rule.' I have never been conned out of loot, I willingly share/give it up.

From context, it is clear that only those who are in the position of forming a group and, at least, claim to have their own orb can con others into accepting a false set of rules.  By stating that you willingly share/give it up, you are 1) stating that when you have an orb, you don't use moml (you share), and 2) when you don't, you make your own choice to give it to whoever is forming the group.

Quote

 

Rarely do I ever bid anyway, I usually let everyone else in the party take what they like first. If they really want it because they feel that they need it, and it helps them, great. I am not in a rush to be the very best, and I don't want to waste time/effort in a bidding war. Especially for quick dungeons like HM/CS, I just want to hop in and hop out, then move on to something else.

 

Also, I have seen a number of MOML leaders being one of the better geared members in parties too, so I don't think it's always the low level players that want all the loot.

Never said 'always'.  In my 3 chars that I do those dungeons with, 1 is usually at top of DPS, 1 varies, and 1 is getting carried.  So I have 1 of each.  I don't change my rules based on what I supply to the group  in terms of my character or items brought.

 

Quote

You keep bringing up the low level players in a bad light, at least acknowledge that there are well-geared players who are doing the same thing. In fact, those low level players could even be whales on their alts doing their dailies. If you want to place blame for the MOML rule, there is no way that it should only go to one particular group of players, it isn't fair at all to see things from only one side.

 

Your view that the orb-user (in HM and CS 2nd boss Kaari) should not be guaranteed loot is understandable, but it still doesn't change the fact that the quest (for HM) or dynamic quests can't be completed without an orb, and I've been in parties that disbanded because no one had an orb.

Slight detail you neglect to mention.  Without a party of at least 2, only elites will finish that dungeon solo.  So it's no different.  Using

your idea of counting groups that can't continue -- every solo person who cannot solo those dungeons you need to count as a 

"failed group" / day that they do it.  There are alot more who cannot finish the current dungeons than groups that show up with no one having an orb.  The latter rarely happens as it wastes everyone's time.

 

Quote

 

Comparing an orb to class skills (resurrection/buff/heal) or charms (resurrection/buff) is unequal. 

Oh?  How long would it take for anyone to get to the point of being able to solo those dungeons?  Add in cost + time to get to 

that level and the orb cost is trivial.  One month of premium membership dwarfs the cost of an orb.  Don't try to justify it on relative cost or value.

Quote

 

Lastly, if what you say is true, in that 'the game will be shutting down in a year or two,' then all the more reason there shouldn't be a rush. Why should people keep putting large amounts of time and money into a game that is shutting down?

Why do people pay for anything?  Do I invest money in any activity for what I will have in the future?  Or do I go for what memories I'll have of getting everything I could get?  Everyone is different.

Quote

It doesn't make sense to invest so much into something that is temporary and intangible.

That's only if you look at your participation in terms of dollars and sense like most moml's do.  They justify them getting treasure based on relative costs and the demand of all the rewards.

 

Quote

There wouldn't be anything to show for it once it's all over.

yup  -- for those who demand loot from others, what will they have to show for their demands when things are over?  Vs. those who don't try to bend others to an artificial rule for their own benefit.  Those who demand all the loot, "teat-for-tat"-players are the real ones who will have nothing at the end.

 

p.s. 'teat' is a misspelling of a word spelled/sounded like 'Tee aye Tee' and incorrectly substitutes the word for a nursing device or organ for babies for a  onomatopoeia word based on sounds because the correct spelling is incorrectly censored.  

Edited by Astarae
clarification for use of misspelling

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MSN1   
7 hours ago, Astarae said:

All of this discussion is a waste of time. 

You said this discussion is a waste of time – if you really feel that way, then why do you bother continuing to post here? You don't have to waste your time. I already told you, we clearly have different views and you can do what you want with this game.

 

I am only responding to clear up some details/questions you appeared to have.

 

7 hours ago, Astarae said:

They can set looting rules at the beginning and those who don't like it can leave.  No prob, right?  And DON'T claim they wouldn't know how.  That's the bull. 

I wasn't going to say the players didn't know how to change loot rules, and I'm not sure why you'd think I would even need to bring that up. I would think that they had just hoped to be able to trust other players, that's all.

 

7 hours ago, Astarae said:

Before using or at group creation?  If they are leader and don't announce on invite, that's "bait and switch". 

The orb-user was actually not the leader, we were originally just doing the CS daily and someone said they had an orb for Kaari, explained loot rules, and off we went.

 

7 hours ago, Astarae said:

From context, it is clear that only those who are in the position of forming a group and, at least, claim to have their own orb can con others into accepting a false set of rules.  By stating that you willingly share/give it up, you are 1) stating that when you have an orb, you don't use moml (you share), and 2) when you don't, you make your own choice to give it to whoever is forming the group.

My explanation was to correct you, because you seemed to generalize much of the players into two categories of either being the con artist or the one being conned. However, I know there are other people like me who fall under neither category and simply just don't mind giving up the loot even without anyone demanding it.

 

7 hours ago, Astarae said:

Never said 'always'.  In my 3 chars that I do those dungeons with, 1 is usually at top of DPS, 1 varies, and 1 is getting carried. 

I never said that you said 'always,' I was only stating from my own experience that it's not always the low level players. However, you did only keep bringing up low level players in a bad light as if they were the only ones creating MOML parties and wanting all the loot. Not once did you mention well-geared players doing that.

 

7 hours ago, Astarae said:

There are alot more who cannot finish the current dungeons than groups that show up with no one having an orb.  The latter rarely happens as it wastes everyone's time.

But it still does happen that no members in a party have an orb, so everyone needs to queue again, and it has happened enough times for me to appreciate when someone does bring an orb.

 

7 hours ago, Astarae said:

Oh?  How long would it take for anyone to get to the point of being able to solo those dungeons?  Add in cost + time to get to  that level and the orb cost is trivial.  One month of premium membership dwarfs the cost of an orb.  Don't try to justify it on relative cost or value.

I thought we were specifically talking about players in parties, because you were the one comparing parties in DND to B&S, saying the DND players there healed or resurrected others, but didn't ask for all the loot. You also said you had to keep using group resurrection charms, but didn't demand loot for reviving the party. Let's not change the subject and deviate into something unrelated on soloing dungeons or premium membership. Since you wanted to compare how DND players in parties dealt with loot rules and didn't receive special treatment for their class skills/charm use in helping the party, I wanted to point out that with the setup of B&S, class skills/charm use is not sufficient to compare to an orb because an orb is not as quick, easy, or cheap to replenish as focus/charms.

 

7 hours ago, Astarae said:

Why do people pay for anything?  Do I invest money in any activity for what I will have in the future?  Or do I go for what memories I'll have of getting everything I could get?  Everyone is different.

I was just saying it didn't seem practical to invest if the game really was shutting down soon. It's fine if you want to reach max-gear, and having good memories is cool, you can do what you want. At this point though, you're also going to have quite a bit of memories on drama over MOML if you are often arguing your opinion to players in-game as well. But if you really feel it's worth it, then ok.

 

7 hours ago, Astarae said:

That's only if you look at your participation in terms of dollars and sense like most moml's do.  They justify them getting treasure based on relative costs and the demand of all the rewards.

yup  -- for those who demand loot from others, what will they have to show for their demands when things are over?  Vs. those who don't try to bend others to an artificial rule for their own benefit.  Those who demand all the loot, "teat-for-tat"-players are the real ones who will have nothing at the end.

Honestly, the ones who take a game and pixel items too seriously are the real ones who will have nothing at the end.

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